Just Auditioned B&W 800D

[3db]

The cabinets were amazing! Beautiful and VERY well constructed! Don't get me wrong the B&W makes a great set of speakrs, they were in my top five. I auditioned them twice, but I liked the Dynaudios and Paradigms slightly more. Euro vs. Dollar and overseas shipping contributes to the speaker being slightly overpriced. The price of the pair increased 2k dollars between my first and second audition. I'm not bashing B&W, I just found something I liked more.

Never took it as B&W bashing You simply found something you didn't like about them is how I read it.

 

[WmAx]

Or it could be that the diamond material in the tweeter is nothing more than a marketing ploy and doesn't provide 100% accurate sound. If the material is so great, why aren’t others flocking to integrate it? It’s tough to sell my theory to the B&W fanboys.

I am a fanboy of the perceptual sciences. Whilst you may not understand what or why you hear specific nuances, I am versed in the research that underlies this perception, and I use it in my own designs as an unwaivering rule. My reply to you was based on this information. My statement was made to you, based on the known effect of a speaker that is absolutely(or near it) flat amplitude response at the listening position. Listeners nearly universally prefer a roll off as measured at the listening position according to the research. The B&W has no other measured characteristic that would lead me to suspect there is anything else to cause this disfavoring impression that you expressed, except for perhaps a room acoustic issue(which is not a problem of the speaker).

-Chris

 

[WmAx]

I believe B&W employs real engineers to do research and design and those engineers will not come up with a material just for marketing purposes. They may command a higher margin with the diamond tweeter but they would not have used them only in their high end products if the material isn't better than what they still use in their more affordable models such as the 8XXS series.

I disagree. Using a diamond or even beryllium tweeter has no real audible advantage over a properly engineered aluminum one or planar or any number of materials. The same goes for some of their enclosures, like the snail shaped one that they claim special performance properties for. It's marketing hype the way I see it - to renew excitement and perceived improvement in the line. In fact, I don't see any reason for the 800D to exist; the 802D is virtually identical in performance. Pretty much the differences between them are consciously induced minor(but on threshold of slight audibility if directly A/Bed) frequency response differences in the main band and slight bass response differences. They use identical technology enclosures(both are inert) and both would function equally as neutral reference devices manipulated with precision DSP systems to achieve what ever response the user finds desirable. Ironically, almost no one uses a precision manipulation system to achieve their preferred response on speakers such as this; I can only speculate that perhaps they believe some kind of unquantified quality will be lost if they do; yet the exact opposite is true.

-Chris

 

[rmk]

I am a fanboy of the perceptual sciences. Whilst you may not understand what or why you hear specific nuances, I am versed in the research that underlies this perception, and I use it in my own designs as an unwaivering rule. My reply to you was based on this information. My statement was made to you, based on the known effect of a speaker that is absolutely(or near it) flat amplitude response at the listening position. Listeners nearly universally prefer a roll off as measured at the listening position according to the research. The B&W has no other measured characteristic that would lead me to suspect there is anything else to cause this disfavoring impression that you expressed, except for perhaps a room acoustic issue(which is not a problem of the speaker).

-Chris

A man of science... Do you have any photos posted here of your "designs" or the system you are currently using?

 

[WmAx]

A man of science... Do you have any photos posted here of your "designs" or the system you are currently using?

No, I have not posted a single photograph of anything I use or have built on this forum, except in the limited scope of a technical issue where an inside image of a re-engineered cabinet for low resonance was posted in direct relevance to some posts in that thread and time to time measurement data posts when relevant.

-Chris

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The price of the pair increased 2k dollars between my first and second audition.

Wow!

That is a lot!

I mean an increase of $200 to $400 is understandable, but $2,000?

That is outrageous!

I wonder if there are any OME for B&Ws?

I doubt that B&W is anything like Mark Levinson's Red Rose Music, which mark up their OME products by up to 600%!

 

[fmw]

This is all a very subjective business. I have quite a bit of experience with B&W speakers. In my experience there is nothing exciting or spectacular about them. They are designed for accuracy and I'm willing to bet their measurements are better than those of the Definitive. The Definitive could very well have a mid bass bulge (not unusual) and boost frequencies that the B&W does not boost. To say one speaker "blows" another one away in bass may be a positive or negative thing depending on what is recorded on the disc. If the recording wasn't meant to be bassy, then boosting it can be symptomatic of a crooked frequency response. You may prefer it but someone else may not. Hence the subjectivity.

802 was as high as I ever owned on the food chain and those speakers weren't spectacular sounding. They were really accurate. I've heard 801's and they sound pretty similar to the 802's in my experience. I've never heard that particular model but I'm willing to bet that if I owned a pair I wouldn't be out looking for new speakers.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

...both would function equally as neutral reference devices manipulated with precision DSP systems to achieve what ever response the user finds desirable.

Okay, please elaborate on the "flatness" or "neutral" frequency response of the 800 & 802. I didn't think they look remarkably flat;

http://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/600/index6.html

http://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/1205bw/index4.html

 

[bandphan]

all symantics, as WmAx is saying the speaker, as are a few others, is able to be tailored to ones room and liking due to its flat response with a dsp, which imo makes it an ideal puchase. I had a chance to listen to a pair of Martin Logan Statement E2s with an active exos outboard crossover in play and the sound was so natural and effortless i was blown away. At 82k its way out my financial realm, and if one could tailor a pair of speakers in an realstic price range, wouldnt that make them a viable option?

 

[codexp3]

I am a fanboy of the perceptual sciences. Whilst you may not understand what or why you hear specific nuances, I am versed in the research that underlies this perception, and I use it in my own designs as an unwaivering rule. My reply to you was based on this information. My statement was made to you, based on the known effect of a speaker that is absolutely(or near it) flat amplitude response at the listening position. Listeners nearly universally prefer a roll off as measured at the listening position according to the research. The B&W has no other measured characteristic that would lead me to suspect there is anything else to cause this disfavoring impression that you expressed, except for perhaps a room acoustic issue(which is not a problem of the speaker).

-Chris

It was 100% not the room acoustics. I listened at Audio Vision South in Tampa, which is among the best 2 channel stores in the world. Buyers fly in from other states to audition speakers because of their spectacular rooms and inventory of 200k$ plus speakers. If I’m not mistaken they are the top selling B&W and Wilson dealer in the entire country.

 

[itschris]

I think one glaring fact a lot of us are overlooking is the marginal value you get once you cross a certain threshold of cost. How often can you actually attain the accumlative value of a higher dollar purchase. I have the Def Tech 7002's that list for about $2,200 for the pair. Is the B&W 800D or 801 going to sound ten times better? Of course not. Discussing the cost of things is almost silly in this passion of ours because our choices, once we moved beyond in ability to afford more then just entry level products, are not based soley on performance. It's folly to think so. When you start paying 3, 5, and 10+ times a typical decent piece of equipment, you're buying it for pride of ownership. You buy it because you've sat up at night thinking how cool it would be to own it. Seriously, I will likely purchase 800 series speakers in the next 2-3 years or so, not because I expect them to sound 5 let alone 10 times better than my Def Techs, but simply because they're some of the nicest looking speakers I've seen and they stir the passion for this hobby. So I look at it this way... the speaker may cost $24K, but I see it as $5k for speaker, $19k for looks, cool factor, show off factor if you can find a neighbor who cares, and most importantly... pure pride of ownership.

We can discuss frequency curves all day long, but you don't spend 20 grand based on a data chart.

 

[silversurfer]

IOW, it is all very subjective.

 

[WmAx]

Okay, please elaborate on the "flatness" or "neutral" frequency response of the 800 & 802. I didn't think they look remarkably flat;

http://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/600/index6.html

http://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/1205bw/index4.html

I though the 800(though this is not the D version - which may have revisions to remove these issues) was better than that - oh well. The 802D is in fact the superior unit - despite the lesser cost. The Response of the 802D is about +/- 2dB - good performance for a speaker. Since the mid and treble still have an overall even balance - the FR artifacts you see would be subtle in effect - as perceived by a human. The lower end rise in response may not be accurate - as the measurement guy on Stereophile routinely states for himself - due to his particular methods of measurement. But the real key with the 802 is the neutral cabinet system which does not timbre distort the signal. It has good off axis response. It is still a standard monopolar radiation pattern - and as I have said before - a far wider/extending flat response off axis is desirable, as demonstrated in the perceptual research. But most people are stuck on typical monopolars due to limited room set up and acoustics - where an omnipolar requires some very specific conditions to be ideal. In addition, a non-resonant, true full range omnipolar is very rare - and very expensive. The cheapest one I know of that meets the requirement is the MBL 111B, which costs nearly 20k/pair. It also required DSP; as it's response it too flat. This response will be further exaggerated, since it radiates this flat treble response in all directions, causing an overall higher treble power response in the room. But being a neutral response system with low cabinet resonance - it's ideal for customization using a DSP device.

If I had an 802D, I would remove the passive crossover and mount posts directly to each driver and use a purely active DSP crossover system to obtain even further linearity. As an example of my standards, here is my DSP active xover computer speaker monitor response:

+/- 0.6dB is more my style.

In addition, I can assure you the cabinet system is very low resonance, to prevent any significant timbre distortion.

-Chris

 

[Grantc79]

I haven't heard the 800D's, only the 802D's at Audio Resource here in New Orleans.

However, the 802D's powered by McIntosh equipment is the best stereo setup I have ever heard bar none.

However, they were setup properly.....

They were a good 3 feet or more from the back wall and 3 feet or more from the side and probably 9 or 10 feet apart. I was about 13 feet away from them in the middle of the sweet spot.

I have heard Martin Logan Summits playing the music they like to play (mainly Jazz SACD) powered by high powered Classe Mono's and they weren't close to as good.

I have also heard Von Schweikert Sr MK II's powered by a pair of Parasound Halo JC1's with a JC 2 Pre (which all received ridiculously rave reviews) and they also weren't near as good (though the room wasn't as good either).


I've heard the new high end Def Tech towers and I was impressed (especially for the price). I don't think they were ground breaking at their price point but they were definitely cool looking and sounded great as well.

But Def Tech doesn't make a product that can compete with the B&W 800 series, and despite the fact that speakers are all subjective you can't really argue that point.


No matter how much you like Mustangs, they are not the caliber of a Lambo or Ferrari.

Now you can very easily argue that the new Cobra, Rousch, or Saleen Mustang is a hell of a lot better deal than a Ferrari or Lambo which would you be right on.

But you can't argue that on a performance wise that it can compete.

 

[codexp3]

I haven't heard the 800D's, only the 802D's at Audio Resource here in New Orleans.

However, the 802D's powered by McIntosh equipment is the best stereo setup I have ever heard bar none.

However, they were setup properly.....

They were a good 3 feet or more from the back wall and 3 feet or more from the side and probably 9 or 10 feet apart. I was about 13 feet away from them in the middle of the sweet spot.

I have heard Martin Logan Summits playing the music they like to play (mainly Jazz SACD) powered by high powered Classe Mono's and they weren't close to as good.

I have also heard Von Schweikert Sr MK II's powered by a pair of Parasound Halo JC1's with a JC 2 Pre (which all received ridiculously rave reviews) and they also weren't near as good (though the room wasn't as good either).


I've heard the new high end Def Tech towers and I was impressed (especially for the price). I don't think they were ground breaking at their price point but they were definitely cool looking and sounded great as well.

But Def Tech doesn't make a product that can compete with the B&W 800 series, and despite the fact that speakers are all subjective you can't really argue that point.


No matter how much you like Mustangs, they are not the caliber of a Lambo or Ferrari.

Now you can very easily argue that the new Cobra, Rousch, or Saleen Mustang is a hell of a lot better deal than a Ferrari or Lambo which would you be right on.

But you can't argue that on a performance wise that it can compete.

Unless of course you throw on some mods. My CL 600 will outrun every stock ferrari and lambo on the road.

 

[Sheep]

Unless of course you throw on some mods. My CL 600 will outrun every stock ferrari and lambo on the road.

Uh.... 0-60 4.6 seconds. No, it won't. The Ariel Atom will to 0-60 in 2.9 seconds. That's only 2.0 liters of displacement too.

SheepStar

 

[chadnliz]

People are free to like any speaker they wish and be proud of an item hard earned cash paid for but anyone who would compare the BW 800D to a DEF Tech and give the opinion I saw from OP has one or both of the following issues to admit to. My first issue would be a opinion which was arrived at before track 1 was played knowing you didnt want to like the BW and you refused to hear its true performance. Second is maybe you cant really hear a difference period and if so you will live in bliss with your speakers forever and any purchase (including the Def Techs) were a waste of money as you cant hear anyway.
While I dont like BW sound as I find it too forward and aggresive for me to live with as my main speaker there is no doubt they are in an entire other league from the Def Tech and your review has no real value to anyone but yourself. I have owned both Def Tech and BW gear along with many others so I speak from experience not a bias.

 

[Seth=L]

People are free to like any speaker they wish and be proud of an item hard earned cash paid for but anyone who would compare the BW 800D to a DEF Tech and give the opinion I saw from OP has one or both of the following issues to admit to. My first issue would be a opinion which was arrived at before track 1 was played knowing you didnt want to like the BW and you refused to hear its true performance. Second is maybe you cant really hear a difference period and if so you will live in bliss with your speakers forever and any purchase (including the Def Techs) were a waste of money as you cant hear anyway.
While I dont like BW sound as I find it too forward and aggresive for me to live with as my main speaker there is no doubt they are in an entire other league from the Def Tech and your review has no real value to anyone but yourself. I have owned both Def Tech and BW gear along with many others so I speak from experience not a bias.

I agree that the review is of no benefit to anyone other than AcuDefTechGuy, that's what I found annoying about it.

 

[Sheep]

And that is what I found Johnny Canuck about it.

SheepStar

 

[gchanjam]

Unless of course you throw on some mods. My CL 600 will outrun every stock ferrari and lambo on the road.

So did you just miss out on the entire meaning of his post? I can go down to the track any day of the week and find any number of properly tuned cars that will outpace stock Ferrari's and Lambo's but at the end of the day you're still driving a Ford/Acura/Benz/etc. and that guy you just beat is still driving a Ferrari/Lambo/Aston/etc. These Fords and other cars aren't bad by any means but they simply aren't on the same level as these high end luxury imports based on prestige, reputation, amenities, and depending on taste, looks.