Just Auditioned B&W 800D

[DD66000]

Okay, so educate me on this. How much power would any of these speakers need given the sensitivity of 90dB w/m?

I mean including the Peak/Dynamic Power needs?

I mean if you listen @ 90dB, how much louder would you say it may get? 99dB?

Okay, so 90dB = 3 watts; 93dB = 6 watts; 96dB = 12 watts; 99dB = 24 watts? 102dB = 48 watts? 105dB = 96 watts?

Seriously, would the sound ever get above 105dB without causing hearing loss?

But I see what you are saying! Thanks!

First, it toally depends on the source, as to what the db level is at any given VC setting.

My system is setup that upon power up the VC is @ -25db, that works out to 1wpc (220wpc @ 0db VC). All speakers are rated @ 91db.
But how much sound pressure is measured at the seated position (10 ft) depends on if I'm listening to a dvd-a/dts disc, for instance, in bypass mode (dvd-a) or through the dts decoder via the coax input. And it also depends on which dvd-a or sacd disc is being played.

With the two subs off, playing Heart's Live in Seattle sacd, in two channel, @ -25db VC, seated 10 ft away, the sound pressure was between 85 ~ 90db.

At the same VC setting, playing ONJ's dvd-a/dts disc in bypass mode, with 5 channels playing, the volume was between 75 ~85 db. When I switched to the coax input the db level was only 70 ~ 80 db.
So the same one watt produced anywhere from 70 ~ 90 db. Sometimes 2 channels, sometimes 5 channels. That's a huge variation.

But if I watch a concert on HDNet, to get the db level near 90 db @ the seated positon, with the subs on, I've got to turn the VC between -9 ~ -3 db. Now we're up to around 110wpc, plus the subs. If I turn up the VC just 3 db more, then I'm at the rated 220wpc.

So, at times you're not using much power, other times you could be at max.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

My system is setup that upon power up the VC is @ -25db, that works out to 1wpc (220wpc @ 0db VC). All speakers are rated @ 91db.

But how do you determine that @ -25dB, you are @ 1wpc? Is there a power output meter that you can use or something?

So with a sensitivity of 91dB w/m, you may be using a lot more than just 1 watt per meter to produce a 91dB (@ 1 meter)?

Your subwoofer has it's own power amplifier, so you can't factor that into your speaker amplifier, right? So your speaker amplifiers are just powering the tweeters, midrange, and upper bass.

I was under the impression that you would never use 220wpc for the tweeters, midrange, and upper bass because your subwoofer's power amp is cranking out most of the power.

 

[DD66000]

But how do you determine that @ -25dB, you are @ 1wpc? Is there a power output meter that you can use or something?

So with a sensitivity of 91dB w/m, you may be using a lot more than just 1 watt per meter to produce a 91dB (@ 1 meter)?

Your subwoofer has it's own power amplifier, so you can't factor that into your speaker amplifier, right? So your speaker amplifiers are just powering the tweeters, midrange, and upper bass.

I was under the impression that you would never use 220wpc for the tweeters, midrange, and upper bass because your subwoofer's power amp is cranking out most of the power.

You have to work backwards. My amp is 220wpc @ 0 db volume control setting. The 3-way towers ( 1" Ti tweeter, 4" Ti midrange, 8" Ti mid-bass) are rated @ 250w. With the majority of the watts going to the 8" driver.

@ -3db = 110wpc; -6db = 55wpc; -9db = 27.5wpc; -12db = 13.75wpc; -15db = 6.875wpc; -18db = 3.4375wpc; -21db = 1.71875wpc; -24db = .86wpc
That's w/o subs and my subs are 540w into 4 ohms, each.
But I'm not checking db levels with just one channel working, its either 2 or 5 channels.

But that's only half the picture. Like I said before it really depends on the source. If the input signal is at a higher db level, then the output is going to be at a higher db level.

If I played any sacd or dvd-a, which are in bypass mode, at the same level as HDNet concerts I'd totally blow myself completely out of the room.

 

[WmAx]

You have to work backwards. My amp is 220wpc @ 0 db volume control setting. The 3-way towers ( 1" Ti tweeter, 4" Ti midrange, 8" Ti mid-bass) are rated @ 250w. With the majority of the watts going to the 8" driver.

@ -3db = 110wpc; -6db = 55wpc; -9db = 27.5wpc; -12db = 13.75wpc; -15db = 6.875wpc; -18db = 3.4375wpc; -21db = 1.71875wpc; -24db = .86wpc
That's w/o subs and my subs are 540w into 4 ohms, each.
But I'm not checking db levels with just one channel working, its either 2 or 5 channels.

But that's only half the picture. Like I said before it really depends on the source. If the input signal is at a higher db level, then the output is going to be at a higher db level.

If I played any sacd or dvd-a, which are in bypass mode, at the same level as HDNet concerts I'd totally blow myself completely out of the room.

I am sorry, but your VC position does not dictate power output as a sole factor. You have to consider source input level first, then factor the gain applied to it(this is what the VC dictates), then the actual load presented by the speakers.

That is, if VC = gain x 10 and the source signal is 1 V input - then output will = 10V. If the speaker is an 8 ohm load, then 1V x 10x gain = 10V into an 8 ohm load = 12.5 Watts. If the source signal is 0.5V x 10x gain = 5v into an 8 0hm load = 3.13 Watts.

-Chris

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I am sorry, but your VC position does not dictate power output as a sole factor. You have to consider source input level first, then factor the gain applied to it(this is what the VC dictates), then the actual load presented by the speakers.

That is, if VC = gain x 10 and the source signal is 1 V input - then output will = 10V. If the speaker is an 8 ohm load, then 1V x 10x gain = 10V into an 8 ohm load = 12.5 Watts. If the source signal is 0.5V x 10x gain = 5v into an 8 0hm load = 3.13 Watts.

-Chris

So WORST case, how much Dynamic/Max power output do you think is needed for a 90dB w/m 3-Way speaker (tweeter, midrange, upper bass) that has a minimum impedance of 3 ohms and nominal impedance of 5 ohms?

 

[DD66000]

I am sorry, but your VC position does not dictate power output as a sole factor. You have to consider source input level first, then factor the gain applied to it(this is what the VC dictates), then the actual load presented by the speakers.

That is, if VC = gain x 10 and the source signal is 1 V input - then output will = 10V. If the speaker is an 8 ohm load, then 1V x 10x gain = 10V into an 8 ohm load = 12.5 Watts. If the source signal is 0.5V x 10x gain = 5v into an 8 0hm load = 3.13 Watts.

-Chris

Like I said twice, it depends on the source, so we're in agreement, more/less.

 

[Seth=L]

You got my attention... can you give some recommendations of the type of DSP device you have in mind?

The only one I have seen him recommend is from Behringer, I don't recal the model.

 

[gus6464]

What about the Revelation speakers?
http://www.redrosemusic.com/revelation.shtml

Please tell me they are only like $5,000! Please tell me!

Aurum Cantus doesn't make a line array speaker but I would rather have these instead of paying $50k.

Aurum Cantus Grand Supreme
http://www.aurumcantus.com/aurumcantu-loudspeaker/loudspeaker_supreme.htm

 

[jamie2112]

Aurum Cantus doesn't make a line array speaker but I would rather have these instead of paying $50k.

Aurum Cantus Grand Supreme
http://www.aurumcantus.com/aurumcantu-loudspeaker/loudspeaker_supreme.htm

Holy cow those are beautiful how much do they go for?

 

[WmAx]

You got my attention... can you give some recommendations of the type of DSP device you have in mind?

Behringer DCX2496. It's about $275.

If you want a more expensive device, comparable units from other brands start at around $700 and up and provide no more real-world fidelity as compared to the Behringer.

-Chris

 

[codexp3]

I wasn’t impressed with B&Ws tweeters. They were okay, but fatiguing w/ prolonged listening. Beryllium tweeters for me (a lot of speaker companies agree) aeb the increased number of manufactures using the material in their flagship lines. No one is else is rushing to incorporate diamond into their drivers. B&W makes a very good speaker, but they’re not the end all in fidelity.

 

[PENG]

So WORST case, how much Dynamic/Max power output do you think is needed for a 90dB w/m 3-Way speaker (tweeter, midrange, upper bass) that has a minimum impedance of 3 ohms and nominal impedance of 5 ohms?

In open field, if you listen from 3 meters away your 90 dB/W would drop to about 81 dB/W based on the inverse square law. Now, let's say you need a generous dynamic range of 30 dB. Since every time you wish to double the SPL you need 3 dB increase in power, so to get a 30 dB SPL increase you will need 2^10 or 1024W.

In real life, you are listening to your speakers in a room so it is likely that the 90 dB/W may only drop to say 87 dB at 3 m. In that case you only need a dynamic range of 24 dB, meaning you amp will only have to put out 2^8 or 256W to give you the dynamic capability to hit 87+24=111 dB.

Even receivers, e.g. Denon AVR-3808/4308, Pioneer VSX-94, Yamaha RX-V1800/3800, Onkyo TX-SR805/875/905 can deliver that kind of power to a 4 ohm load. Having said that if you insist on that kind of dynamic range capability you should get an external amp because while a good reciever can do the job, there won't be much left in reserve.

 

[WmAx]

I wasn’t impressed with B&Ws tweeters. They were okay, but fatiguing w/ prolonged listening. Beryllium tweeters for me (a lot of speaker companies agree) aeb the increased number of manufactures using the material in their flagship lines. No one is else is rushing to incorporate diamond into their drivers. B&W makes a very good speaker, but they’re not the end all in fidelity.

Don't confuse fidelity with you prefer in so far as coloration. Be sure, the high end BW speakers are extreme high fidelity monopolar speakers in every sense of that meaning. If the treble is fatiguing to you - congratulations - you found out that it needs a slight taper off in the treble applied to compensate for how most commercial recordings are produced. It is a beneficial thing, in fact, since the extreme linearity means a precision DSP device like the one I specify routinely is IDEAL on this type of speaker; you have the rare ability to fine tune in any sound you so desire.

-Chris

 

[Sheep]

Don't confuse fidelity with you prefer in so far as coloration. Be sure, the high end BW speakers are extreme high fidelity monopolar speakers in every sense of that meaning. If the treble is fatiguing to you - congratulations - you found out that it needs a slight taper off in the treble applied to compensate for how most commercial recordings are produced. It is a beneficial thing, in fact, since the extreme linearity means a precision DSP device like the one I specify routinely is IDEAL on this type of speaker; you have the rare ability to fine tune in any sound you so desire.

-Chris

I wonder how many times you have to say that before it sinks in.

SheepStar

 

[Seth=L]

I wonder how many times you have to say that before it sinks in.

SheepStar

It won't matter how many times you say it, you have to give the subject a logic serum to get them to put their subjectivism aside.

 

[codexp3]

Or it could be that the diamond material in the tweeter is nothing more than a marketing ploy and doesn't provide 100% accurate sound. If the material is so great, why aren’t others flocking to integrate it? It’s tough to sell my theory to the B&W fanboys.

 

[3db]

I wonder how many times you have to say that before it sinks in.

SheepStar

Hearing is a very subjective thing and if the guy finds the tweeters fatigueing, then its not the speaker for him. This speaker may set the benchmark in the industry for neutrality and cabinet inertness but that doesn't mean that everyone will find this speaker appealing.

 

[PENG]

Or it could be that the diamond material in the tweeter is nothing more than a marketing ploy and doesn't provide 100% accurate sound. If the material is so great, why aren’t others flocking to integrate it? It’s tough to sell my theory to the B&W fanboys.

I believe B&W employs real engineers to do research and design and those engineers will not come up with a material just for marketing purposes. They may command a higher margin with the diamond tweeter but they would not have used them only in their high end products if the material isn't better than what they still use in their more affordable models such as the 8XXS series. If you don't like the way they sound then you would buy something else and obviously you did, but B&W made their speakers to sound neutral so that they will reproduce the recording more faithfully, whether you like it or not. I am sure there are people who prefer the sound reproduced by their system to the real concert.

In my experience, it is easier to A/B high fidelity speakers such as the B&W800 series, Paradigm Signatures, Studios, Thiels, KEF, PSB and my Energy Verita (manufacturers who supposedly try to reproduce music recording faithfully) etc. with high quality(and price usually) classical music CDs. With pops and jazz stuff, as soon as you get to a certain price point say something like the Paradigm Studio 100, they all sound almost the same, though the differences will still be more obvious than between well made receivers and separate amps. That's just my experience.

 

[PENG]

Hearing is a very subjective thing and if the guy finds the tweeters fatigueing, then its not the speaker for him. This speaker may set the benchmark in the industry for neutrality and cabinet inertness but that doesn't mean that everyone will find this speaker appealing.

I think you are stating the obvious and I have not seen anyone here suggesting the otherwise. So I agree with you, obviously.

 

[codexp3]

Hearing is a very subjective thing and if the guy finds the tweeters fatigueing, then its not the speaker for him. This speaker may set the benchmark in the industry for neutrality and cabinet inertness but that doesn't mean that everyone will find this speaker appealing.

The cabinets were amazing! Beautiful and VERY well constructed! Don't get me wrong the B&W makes a great set of speakrs, they were in my top five. I auditioned them twice, but I liked the Dynaudios and Paradigms slightly more. Euro vs. Dollar and overseas shipping contributes to the speaker being slightly overpriced. The price of the pair increased 2k dollars between my first and second audition. I'm not bashing B&W, I just found something I liked more.