Just Auditioned B&W 800D

[AcuDefTechGuy]

An unbiased post would have at least brought up how poor the demo conditions were & maybe even have been centered around it.

Did I not tell you how they setup looked like?

Don't blame me for how the room is set up. They had the listening chair probably 5 ft way. I didn't measure it. It seemed like 5 ft away. It could have been 6 ft.

This was not a FORMAL write-up or professional review, people.

This was just my impression based on one visit. I did not control the room acoustics, speaker placement, or listening spot.

I simply went into this room and listened.

And I did tell you how the room was set up.

 

[rmk]

Every jar has a lid

It is interesting that a dealer would show those loudspeakers with that setup (the Porsche analogy was a good one). Does he actually want to sell these or is he so thick as to think it doesn't matter how they are setup and powered. I have heard the 800D's properly setup and they are one of the very best loudspeakers at any price. I have also heard Deftech (although it has been a while) and no offense but they are NOT in the same class.

OTOH, I'm sure that you are very pleased that your speakers sound the same (to you) as the B&W's. You appear to have made a great loudspeaker purchase decision. Congrats!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

It is interesting that a dealer would show those loudspeakers with that setup (the Porsche analogy was a good one). Does he actually want to sell these or is he so thick as to think it doesn't matter how they are setup and powered. I have heard the 800D's properly setup and they are one of the very best loudspeakers at any price. I have also heard Deftech (although it has been a while) and no offense but they are NOT in the same class.

OTOH, I'm sure that you are very pleased that your speakers sound the same (to you) as the B&W's. You appear to have made a great loudspeaker purchase decision. Congrats!

Well, this really makes me want to come back to audition when they do get their bigger/better showrooms build!

I do like my current speakers, but if the B&W 800Ds are the best speakers out there, I will seriously consider getting them some point in the future. Revel Salon2 is another. Linwitz Orion and B&O BeoLab5 are 2 others. Mark Levinson Red Rose Classic is another.

Guys, all I'm doing is giving my impression of this one visit. Perhaps in a different condition, the 800Ds might have sounded like Paradise. I'm NOT AFRAID to like new things. I love upgrading. If the 800Ds are truly the best, I will make it my goal in life to own them.

Maybe this dealer assumes that people will buy B&W based on reputation alone. They are wrong. Most of us love great sounding speakers and may not mind buying them because they are great sounding speakers, not because of reputation alone.

BTW, what does "Every Jar has a lid" mean?

 

[gus6464]

Mark Levinson Red Rose Classic is another.

Red Rose Classic = Aurum Cantus Moon Goddess 2

Mark Levinson gets his speakers from the same factory as Aurum Cantus. They are also less than half the price with the Moon Goddess costing $2800.

 

[gus6464]

Even his amps are ripoffs as they are Dussun amps.

Red Rose Passion $3000
http://www.redrosemusic.com/passion.shtml

Dussun DS99 <$700
http://www.dussun.com/english/ds99.html

Red Rose Affirmation $7000
http://www.redrosemusic.com/affirmation.shtml

Dussun V8i <$2000
http://www.dussun.com/english/v8.html

 

[deedubb]

I don't question the fact that *you* believe the Def Techs are superior than the B&W's, but I guarantee that in a proper A/B comparison, the majority would feel differently. I'm sure the bottom end of the Def Techs blow away the B&W's, and they should as they each have a full built-in sub. The extra kick of that bass can be deceiving and make it sound better than another speaker with less extension.

I have DT 7001's for my home theater and I love them. However, for pure 2 channel, I think my PSB Stratus Gold's are actually better than the Def Techs. Def Tech vs 800D?...comparing apples and oranges there. The B&W's are in another league.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Red Rose Classic = Aurum Cantus Moon Goddess 2

Mark Levinson gets his speakers from the same factory as Aurum Cantus. They are also less than half the price with the Moon Goddess costing $2800.

Even his amps are ripoffs as they are Dussun amps.

Red Rose Passion $3000
http://www.redrosemusic.com/passion.shtml

Dussun DS99 <$700
http://www.dussun.com/english/ds99.html

Red Rose Affirmation $7000
http://www.redrosemusic.com/affirmation.shtml

Dussun V8i <$2000
http://www.dussun.com/english/v8.html

WOW! Thanks for these info!

I must say that I'm surprised only because of the name Mark Levinson is attached to Red Rose Music.

So basically people are paying a mark-up of 328% ( $700 --> $3,000) just for the name of "Mark Levinson"!

The Classic Ribbon speakers are marked up 185%!

And the Affirmation IA is marked up 250%!

That is CRAZY!

What about the Revelation speakers?
http://www.redrosemusic.com/revelation.shtml

Please tell me they are only like $5,000! Please tell me!

 

[itschris]

I just got my Def Techs the other day... the 7002's, clr2500, and 350's. I have to say that I do love these speakers and owning these new ones has only reinforced my opinion of them since it was first formed probably 10 years ago when they first started coming to HT prominence. I'm not a fanboy...I'm not even sure I know what that means... but I do like these speakers... a lot. For the price point, I think you get a tremedous speaker.

As far as B&W goes... the top line 800's would be the speaker I would have and will have at some point. AccuDefTechGuy was just giving his impressions based on what he heard in the gven setup. I'm not an expert by any means, nor do I have any serious experience with B&W, but the few times I have heard them they were setup in much different configurations... at least 10ft apart I'd say and had considerably more power. I know one person who has a home theater/audiophile quality listening room. He each 801 powered by a monsterous Halcro amp (I'm gussing a monoblock but I don't know much about Halcro except that they cost about as much as typical car). The other setup was in a a/v store I visited a couple or so years back that carried B&W, Krell, Macintosh and some other high end stuff. Their room also had each speaker powered by a Macintosh monoblock (coincidently... this was the visit that got me turned out to Macintosh... I never really cared for the stuff, but once you see and hear in action, you can really grow in affinity for it).

Anyway, Classe is nice stuff, but I do think that setup probably didn't even come close to the way those speakers should have been demoed. As much I love Def Tech, I can say with complete confidence that a properly setup b&W rig, albeit a ridiculously expenseive one, would be far superior to most mid to high end speaker setups... but again... your complete system would likely exceed $50K and approach $100K or more in a full HT... so they should blow anything away.

While I'm at it...one of the other reasons I personally like the Def Techs was because of the well executed built in subs. Big square boxes just aren't room or wife friendly. I don't have the luxury of no holds barred setups... I think most of don't. We have to balance the HT within a main living area and balance it with what makes sense in your house with your family. So for me, these speakers really fit well... budget-wise, room-wise (sorda), family-wise, and very importantly- performance-wise.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I don't question the fact that *you* believe the Def Techs are superior than the B&W's, but I guarantee that in a proper A/B comparison, the majority would feel differently. I'm sure the bottom end of the Def Techs blow away the B&W's, and they should as they each have a full built-in sub. The extra kick of that bass can be deceiving and make it sound better than another speaker with less extension.

I have DT 7001's for my home theater and I love them. However, for pure 2 channel, I think my PSB Stratus Gold's are actually better than the Def Techs. Def Tech vs 800D?...comparing apples and oranges there. The B&W's are in another league.

How any of us FEEL is just our own opinion. You may feel that the B&W's are in another league. Many others may agree with you. It doesn't make it a fact of life. You may feel the PSB are better than your BP7001SCs. That's how you feel. It doesn't mean everyone else will feel the same.

We can only express our feelings and impressions. I don't think any of us claim that our ideas and conclusions are carved in stones and must be agreed upon.

All of us will disagree on just about everything. Whatever works for you, man.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

...experience with B&W, but the few times I have heard them they were setup in much different configurations... at least 10ft apart I'd say and had considerably more power...

Yeah, 6 ft apart is kind of funny. That was kind of my first thought, but I figured this B&W dealer knew what they were doing. There were 3 persons in the room besides me, and I guess they all felt the same that they had the right placement. I was kind of surprise too when I saw that the seat was placed about 5 or 6 ft away. I mean at home, I sit about 10 or 11 ft away. At least they had one thing right - they toed-in the speakers.

I just can't figure out a lot of these showrooms and dealers.

I wonder if they know what they are doing?

 

[3db]

Anyway, Classe is nice stuff, but I do think that setup probably didn't even come close to the way those speakers should have been demoed. As much I love Def Tech, I can say with complete confidence that a properly setup b&W rig, albeit a ridiculously expenseive one, would be far superior to most mid to high end speaker setups... but again... your complete system would likely exceed $50K and approach $100K or more in a full HT... so they should blow anything away.

There is nothing wrong with Classe equipment and I consider it to be in the same high end league as those B&W speakers. I'm chalking Def Tech's experience to room acoustics or improper setup period. Its not the amp.

 

[AdrianMills]

That's true. I agree. Perhaps the show room is not optimal. But how many times have most of us just listened to speakers in show rooms and given our opinions? I think a lot of times. But like GlocksRock and you say, it's definitely not a good comparison.

But for $23,000 speakers + $15,000 electronics, I thought they would sound 100% awesome no matter where, but I was wrong. They did not sound very impressive at all. Perhaps under optimal circumstances, they may have sounded 100% awesome.

So we did the demo of the 802D and the 804S.

The room was carpeted, and around 15 to 20m2. There were heavy drapes behind the speakers and some acoustic panels behind the listening area. We were sitting about 3m from the speakers.

You'd think that the room should have been fairly good but really, it must have been awful because the 804S sounded bad. Thin and with a midrange that seemed far too forward. On the other hand, the 802D, spectacular though they looked, sounded overwhelmed by too much bloated bass. They were definitely better in the midrange though and there was much more clarity there than the 804S.

I was very disappointed as I expected to be awed but it was obvious from the performance of the 804S that the room was playing a huge role. If the 804S I'd originally listened to had sounded like this I'd not have bought them. They sound awesome in my home. I can only imagine how much better the 802D would be considering that they were that much better in the demo room.

The dealer has offered to bring the 802D to my home for a demo - strange, as HiFiKlubben, the chain that has a monopoly on B&W in Norway, never used to allow for home demos. Maybe they've cottoned on that they have to do something to stem the ID tide.

An interesting point is that my friends with me didn’t think that the 802D had too much bass; these are 2 channel guys that don’t use bass management at all. Maybe I’m just used to a very flat FR on my sub. The dealer said that Norwegians as a general trend tended to like bass very hot; I tried to tell him that the bass wasn’t just hot but bloated and boomy and he should do something to the room to try to correct it; his response was to hook up another amp which didn’t have the “mid bass hump” of the Denon integrated he’d been using. At that point I just had to sigh and go with the flow.

 

[itschris]

I think part of it is just pure overhead expense of having a big room setup for just a couple of products.

That one shop was the only place I've ever been that had realistic setups for the kind of stuff they carried. I have to say that we used to have a very high end SoundAdvice store hear in Clearwater, FL that had 2 really nice rooms for B&W and MartinLogan. I can't say that I ever paid attention back then because I was nowhere near able to afford that stuff at the time, but I did like to look at it. Unfortunately, the store today has gotten very consumer grade. Competition from BB, CC, and the internet has put a hurt on them.

I was trying to remember what other speaker was there. I didn't know of them at the time.... thinking about it... it must have been more like 5 years ago... I dunno...but they carried Wilson there as well. I wasn't not familiar with those speakers at the time and had no idea what to make of them. They looked big and kinda odd. I never got to listen to them though.

... I think I had a point somewhere in this.. but it's long gone from strolling down memory lane.

Anyway... I don't know why everyone gets bent like a handlebar because of the chatter about DefTechs. No seems to be upset about Emotiva. I would have likely bought from them had they not pushed their release date back half a year, but I also don't mind reading posts from folks who have their stuff and banter about it. If i don't feel iike reading about it... I move on to a different post.

 

[itschris]

There is nothing wrong with Classe equipment and I consider it to be in the same high end league as those B&W speakers. I'm chalking Def Tech's experience to room acoustics or improper setup period. Its not the amp.

When you see really high end setups with stuff like Wilson, B&W, hi-end Martin Logan, and other more upper crust, high dollar speakers, you usually see banks of amps. My thought was that speakers in these circles really did require tons of power to really sing open.

My thought was that 200 watts wouldn't be enough. I mean, I doubt you'd ever see a serious set of Martin Logans hooked up to a 150 watt multichannel receiver like my Pioneer Elite.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I wish I had 3 of these:

http://shanling.com/images/Art/A500b.jpg

http://shanling.com/images/new/A500/A500_01.jpg

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

...the 804S sounded bad. Thin and with a midrange that seemed far too forward...the 802D...sounded overwhelmed by too much bloated bass...I was very disappointed... I tried to tell him that the bass wasn’t just hot but bloated and boomy...

Thank you!

I thought I was losing my mind!

Your B&W dealer at least had some acoustic panels and better speaker placement and proper sitting distance!

Mine had none of the above.

But the end result was very similar: Disapppointment.

I thought the 800D did NOT have enough bass for my personal preference, and I underline personal preference.

I don't know. Like you said, it must be bad room acoustics because I thought the 800Ds did not sound very good. Overall, I was VERY DISAPPOINTED.

Please believe me when I say that I REALLY REALY WANTED the 800Ds to sound like the Holy Grail of speakers. It would have given me something new to BUY in the near future.

I love GREAT speakers.

But I walked away a bit ANGRY. I did NOT walk away all smiley and happy thinking that my DefTechs were the best speakers in the world. I want something even BETTER!!! That is why I have a HT Piggy Bank. That is why I work hard. I want to buy some awesome speakers that will melt the walls and everything around it.

It would be sad to think that any $23K pr of speakers (any brand) would sound that mediocre!!!

So when I wrote my original post yesterday, I was feeling ANGRY and SARCASTIC, NOT happy.

 

[3db]

When you see really high end setups with stuff like Wilson, B&W, hi-end Martin Logan, and other more upper crust, high dollar speakers, you usually see banks of amps. My thought was that speakers in these circles really did require tons of power to really sing open.

My thought was that 200 watts wouldn't be enough. I mean, I doubt you'd ever see a serious set of Martin Logans hooked up to a 150 watt multichannel receiver like my Pioneer Elite.

According to the specs, I would figure that 200 watts would be more than enough grunt to drive these.

Technical Specifications : 800D

Description 3-way vented-box system
Dimensions Height: 1180mm (46.5 in) (not including feet)
Width: 450mm (17.7 in)
Depth: 645mm (25.4 in)

Net Weight 125kg (275 lb)
Freq. Response 32Hz - 28kHz ±3dB on reference axis
Freq. Range -6dB at 25Hz and 33kHz
Sensitivity 90dB spl (2.83V, 1m)
Normal Impedance 8 ohms (minimum 3.1 ohms)
Power Handling 50W - 1000W into 8 ohms on unclipped programme
Drive Units Unit 1: 1x 25mm (1 in) diamond dome high-frequency
Unit 2: 1x 150mm (6 in) woven Kevlar® cone FST midrange
Unit 3: 2x 250mm (10 in) Rohacell® cone bass

Finish Cabinet: Real wood veneers of Cherrywood, Rosenut or Black Ash
Grille: Black cloth
Dispersion Description: Within 2dB of reference response
Horizontal: over 60º arc
Vertical: over 10º arc

Harmonic Distortion 2nd and 3rd harmonics (90dB, 1m)
<1% 45Hz - 100kHz
<0.5% 80Hz - 100kHz
Crossover Frequency 350Hz, 4kHz

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

There is nothing wrong with Classe equipment and I consider it to be in the same high end league as those B&W speakers. I'm chalking Def Tech's experience to room acoustics or improper setup period. Its not the amp.

Yeah, I would agree. I would blame 100% of this to room acoustics and bad speaker placement. However, the sales rep did tell me that he thought the 800Ds were also Under-powered.

And I thought to myself, "Okay, so if the 800Ds are undepowered, why the heck didn't you guys use something ELSE, instead of making up excuses???"

I guess the take-home message is that showroom speaker audition is probably not the best in the world.

However, I would be scared to take home a $23K pr of speakers and had to return them by myself. Now if the dealer offered to bring them to my home and take them back at no charge whatsoever, I'm all for it.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Technical Specifications : 800D

Sensitivity 90dB spl (2.83V, 1m)
Normal Impedance 8 ohms (minimum 3.1 ohms)

90dB w/m means it would require only 1 watt to produce 90dB. So even if I were sitting 3 meters away like I SHOULD HAVE, it would require 3 watts of power. Let's say it required TEN times that much for Dynamic power, that would still be 30 watts. Even TWENTY times that much is only 60 watts.

And the Classe 200 watts @ 8 ohms is probably 300 or 400 watts into 4 ohms and probably 400-500 watts into 3 ohms.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Anyway... I don't know why everyone gets bent like a handlebar because of the chatter about DefTechs. No seems to be upset about Emotiva. I would have likely bought from them had they not pushed their release date back half a year, but I also don't mind reading posts from folks who have their stuff and banter about it. If i don't feel iike reading about it... I move on to a different post.

Yeah, I guess we don't have Emo-haters like we have DT-haters.

I mean most of these people have never even listened DT BP speakers inside an actual HOME w/ good acoustics and proper speaker placement.

Showrooms suck.