JBL 230 vs 305 bass

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bradymartin

Full Audioholic
why does the smaller 5 inch woofer on the 305 have more bass than the bigger 6.5 woofer on the 230?

per specs the 305 five inch woofer goes down to 43

per specs the 230 six and a half inch woofer goes down to 52

just doesnt make sense to me.
 
zieglj01

zieglj01

Audioholic Spartan
Put the speakers on stands in an open room, and I think you will find that the 230 will have the overall better performance. The JBL 230 still has usable bass to 44 hz

The 305 is a nearfield monitor
 
Y

yepimonfire

Audioholic Samurai
i have no idea what that means

just thought the bigger the woofer the lower the bass
Just for future reference, I will give you a quick education on bass response and driver size.

what controls bass response in woofers (disregarding excursion, i.e. woofer movement) is both the compliance of the suspension and the weight of the driver, along with enclosure type (ported or sealed). The heavier a driver is, and the more compliant the suspension, the lower the resonant frequency, and consequently frequency response, of the driver. This is why 15” drivers in pa speakers fail to reach below 60hz, while that 6.5” speaker you’re referring to digs down to 44hz.

That’s not to say driver size isn’t important, because it certainly is. The cone’s job in a woofer is to couple to the air and move it back and forth to recreate certain frequencies, hz is how many full back and forth movements per second, so 40hz requires the driver to move back and forth 40x a second. As frequencies decrease, these wavelengths become longer and longer. The effectiveness of a speaker coupling to the air across a particular frequency range is related to the diameter of the driver in relation to the wavelength. A 3000hz wave is about 4.5 inches. With a typical 1” tweeter, that gives about a 1:4.5 ratio of diameter of driver to wavelength. A 40hz wave is is about 28 FEET! Since it is incredibly impractical, let alone presenting huge challenges from an engineering standpoint, to design a subwoofer with say, a 72” driver, we have to deal with sizes ranging from 8”-18”. Even a 12” sub gives you a ratio of 1:28 diameter of driver to wavelength ratio at 40hz. This means even big speakers have to move quite a lot of air to reproduce these frequencies with any usefulness. A typical 12” subwoofer might have a sensitivity rating of 83dB at 1w, while a dome tweeter will often be 92dB at 1w. Since the decibel scale is logarithmic this means that the tweeter is almost 10x more effective at coupling to the air within its operating range.

When it comes to smaller drivers, the amount of excursion increases enormously, a 12” subwoofer would only need to move about 5mm one way to reproduce a 40hz wave at 100dB/1m, while a 6.5” driver would need to move nearly 17mm. This kind of excursion would destroy most small woofers, which likely have an xmax of 6mm. A ported box halves the excursion requirement at frequencies near the tuning, but that’s still about 8.5”.

Since woofers in two way speakers also must cover mid bass and midrange frequencies, they can’t be made super heavy with a very compliant suspension like a sub, because the driver has to move back and forth quickly to reproduce higher frequencies linearly. To do this effectively, the driver must be light, which also means thin. A thin small driver moving 4x a much a a thick, large subwoofer is going to flex, leading to lots of distortion at lower frequencies.

This is why people use subwoofers. I would be less concerned with bass response of the speakers (so long as it can cover down to about 60-70hz). The largest benefit of a bigger speaker is higher output with lower distortion at all frequencies. Use a sub for the bass.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
TheWarrior

TheWarrior

Audioholic Ninja
Just for future reference, I will give you a quick education on bass response and driver size.

what controls bass response in woofers (disregarding excursion, i.e. woofer movement) is both the compliance of the suspension and the weight of the driver, along with enclosure type (ported or sealed). The heavier a driver is, and the more compliant the suspension, the lower the resonant frequency, and consequently frequency response, of the driver. This is why 15” drivers in pa speakers fail to reach below 60hz, while that 6.5” speaker you’re referring to digs down to 44hz.

That’s not to say driver size isn’t important, because it certainly is. The cone’s job in a woofer is to couple to the air and move it back and forth to recreate certain frequencies, hz is how many full back and forth movements per second, so 40hz requires the driver to move back and forth 40x a second. As frequencies decrease, these wavelengths become longer and longer. The effectiveness of a speaker coupling to the air across a particular frequency range is related to the diameter of the driver in relation to the wavelength. A 3000hz wave is about 4.5 inches. With a typical 1” tweeter, that gives about a 1:4.5 ratio of diameter of driver to wavelength. A 40hz wave is is about 28 FEET! Since it is incredibly impractical, let alone presenting huge challenges from an engineering standpoint, to design a subwoofer with say, a 72” driver, we have to deal with sizes ranging from 8”-18”. Even a 12” sub gives you a ratio of 1:28 diameter of driver to wavelength ratio at 40hz. This means even big speakers have to move quite a lot of air to reproduce these frequencies with any usefulness. A typical 12” subwoofer might have a sensitivity rating of 83dB at 1w, while a dome tweeter will often be 92dB at 1w. Since the decibel scale is logarithmic this means that the tweeter is almost 10x more effective at coupling to the air within its operating range.

When it comes to smaller drivers, the amount of excursion increases enormously, a 12” subwoofer would only need to move about 5mm one way to reproduce a 40hz wave at 100dB/1m, while a 6.5” driver would need to move nearly 17mm. This kind of excursion would destroy most small woofers, which likely have an xmax of 6mm. A ported box halves the excursion requirement at frequencies near the tuning, but that’s still about 8.5”.

Since woofers in two way speakers also must cover mid bass and midrange frequencies, they can’t be made super heavy with a very compliant suspension like a sub, because the driver has to move back and forth quickly to reproduce higher frequencies linearly. To do this effectively, the driver must be light, which also means thin. A thin small driver moving 4x a much a a thick, large subwoofer is going to flex, leading to lots of distortion at lower frequencies.

This is why people use subwoofers. I would be less concerned with bass response of the speakers (so long as it can cover down to about 60-70hz). The largest benefit of a bigger speaker is higher output with lower distortion at all frequencies. Use a sub for the bass.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I would just add there is a bit more to the T/S parameters than suggested above, but in regards to woofer diameter, it has nothing to do with anything in terms of ability to reproduce low frequencies. As Yep accurately calculated and pointed out, those low frequencies are so much larger than any woofer producing them.

Larger drivers typically have higher power handling, but when used in homes, more woofers means even distribution of bass at all listening locations. No 'super sub' can change that, due to the size of the wavelengths being produced. You inevitably have the listening positions in phase at some frequencies, but not at all frequencies - there are some sounds you just won't hear due to the realities of producing bass waves in small rooms.

The waveguide on the 305's really makes for easy setup to multiple seats. My Dad bought a pair for his TV, and even with his weird arrangement, almost every seat sounds exactly the same above the bass region.
 
M

MrBoat

Audioholic Ninja
Because the 305's are little freaks of nature! Also, since they are active speakers, Harman was able to tune the onboard amps optimally for them as well. I haven't had the subwoofer on since I plugged them in.

Even JBL's description of the 6.5" polyplas driver in the 230 calls it a "midrange speaker." Whereas with the 305, they describe the 5" as a "long throw woofer."
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
why does the smaller 5 inch woofer on the 305 have more bass than the bigger 6.5 woofer on the 230?

per specs the 305 five inch woofer goes down to 43

per specs the 230 six and a half inch woofer goes down to 52

just doesnt make sense to me.
Much of the reason is the BS that gets reinforced in the consumer audio marketing system would get called out in pro audio.

If you are selling monitors to recording engineers, the kinds of exaggeration commonly used for consumer audio would get called out.

For example, I measured the rigid conical section of the woofers just inside the surround foam/rubber:

My LSR305 (specified 5" woofer) measures right at 4"
My JBL Studio 580 towers (specified 6.5" woofer) measures right at 4.5"

If I am selling to recording engineers, I realize they are going to look at the specs; furthermore, they are liable to measure the FR and would raise hell if the FR was exaggerated (like Def Tech and others do). The quality of their work depends on knowing a monitor will cover the frequencies they need.

If I am selling to consumer audio (and remember we, who research stuff via forums are a small fraction of audio consumers), I would do well to add a cheap but wider surround and frame so that I can take a smaller speaker and spec a larger woofer!

It would be unfair to target JBL especially for this, This is just the reality of the consumer audio market.
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
Much of the reason is the BS that gets reinforced in the consumer audio marketing system would get called out in pro audio.

If you are selling monitors to recording engineers, the kinds of exaggeration commonly used for consumer audio would get called out.

For example, I measured the rigid conical section of the woofers just inside the surround foam/rubber:

My LSR305 (specified 5" woofer) measures right at 4"
My JBL Studio 580 towers (specified 6.5" woofer) measures right at 4.5"

If I am selling to recording engineers, I realize they are going to look at the specs; furthermore, they are liable to measure the FR and would raise hell if the FR was exaggerated (like Def Tech and others do). The quality of their work depends on knowing a monitor will cover the frequencies they need.

If I am selling to consumer audio (and remember we, who research stuff via forums are a small fraction of audio consumers), I would do well to add a cheap but wider surround and frame so that I can take a smaller speaker and spec a larger woofer!

It would be unfair to target JBL especially for this, This is just the reality of the consumer audio market.
Woofer size is usually quoted for edge of frame to edge of frame. Sometimes it can mean half of surround to other half of surround. I have learned not to care about specs. Acoustic measurements have far more bearing on what you hear rather than spec sheets.

Also, your idea of what recording engineers might do is wildly optimistic, unfortunately. Don't think that recording studios are using a flat frequency response to produce their music. I have seen some pretty disastrous setups for recording and mastering consoles in studios. A lot of these guys are usually pretty reliant on headphones. Also sound engineers can also fall prey to some pretty dumb myths, so don't think these guys all have a strictly scientific outlook on sound reproduction. Sad, but true.

If you want to make sure your recordings are made with a proper sound in the recording and engineering stages, look for recordings made by studios with THX PM3 certification.
 
B

bradymartin

Full Audioholic
well the 305s are on sale with free isolation pads for a total of $258 shipped.

compared to 230s for $300 shipped

for computer desktop setup which would you choose?

i am still in return window for the 230s and i love them dearly.

just wondering if the 305s have the same tweeter as the 230s?

if so i can live with the lower bass of the 305s as long as the tweeter is the same.
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
Get the 305s, they are intended to be used in close proximity to the listener. The 230s are not designed for that. But if you are happy with what you have, why the hassle to get something else?
 
B

bradymartin

Full Audioholic
Get the 305s, they are intended to be used in close proximity to the listener. The 230s are not designed for that. But if you are happy with what you have, why the hassle to get something else?
mainly the added cost of an amplifier with the 230s. im using a borrowed amp from my sister. looked at many recommended amps like the sa50, sa50 plus etc .

so for $258 i get everything i need, with the 230s $300 plus amp.

and yeah i see what you mean about the 230s
if i want to listen loud, i need to step back a few feet away from the 230s to enjoy them.

i guess my point is if the 305 tweeter is similar sounding to the 230 tweeter. i love that 230 tweeter
 
M

MrBoat

Audioholic Ninja
mainly the added cost of an amplifier with the 230s. im using a borrowed amp from my sister. looked at many recommended amps like the sa50, sa50 plus etc .

so for $258 i get everything i need, with the 230s $300 plus amp.

and yeah i see what you mean about the 230s
if i want to listen loud, i need to step back a few feet away from the 230s to enjoy them.

i guess my point is if the 305 tweeter is similar sounding to the 230 tweeter. i love that 230 tweeter
I have the 305's and love them. I don't know if it's the same tweeter, or sounds the same because I have not heard the 230s. But the tweeter in the 305s is quite capable. I mean, everything that comes from it, sounds as it should. I have mine hooked up to my PC. I use the EQ software from the soundcard to fine tune them so I can kind of adjust it beyond what adjustments are provided with the speakers.
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
I have not heard the 230 so cannot comment which is better, but the 305 is damn good!
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
Just for future reference, I will give you a quick education on bass response and driver size.

what controls bass response in woofers (disregarding excursion, i.e. woofer movement) is both the compliance of the suspension and the weight of the driver, along with enclosure type (ported or sealed). The heavier a driver is, and the more compliant the suspension, the lower the resonant frequency, and consequently frequency response, of the driver. This is why 15” drivers in pa speakers fail to reach below 60hz, while that 6.5” speaker you’re referring to digs down to 44hz.

That’s not to say driver size isn’t important, because it certainly is. The cone’s job in a woofer is to couple to the air and move it back and forth to recreate certain frequencies, hz is how many full back and forth movements per second, so 40hz requires the driver to move back and forth 40x a second. As frequencies decrease, these wavelengths become longer and longer. The effectiveness of a speaker coupling to the air across a particular frequency range is related to the diameter of the driver in relation to the wavelength. A 3000hz wave is about 4.5 inches. With a typical 1” tweeter, that gives about a 1:4.5 ratio of diameter of driver to wavelength. A 40hz wave is is about 28 FEET! Since it is incredibly impractical, let alone presenting huge challenges from an engineering standpoint, to design a subwoofer with say, a 72” driver, we have to deal with sizes ranging from 8”-18”. Even a 12” sub gives you a ratio of 1:28 diameter of driver to wavelength ratio at 40hz. This means even big speakers have to move quite a lot of air to reproduce these frequencies with any usefulness. A typical 12” subwoofer might have a sensitivity rating of 83dB at 1w, while a dome tweeter will often be 92dB at 1w. Since the decibel scale is logarithmic this means that the tweeter is almost 10x more effective at coupling to the air within its operating range.

When it comes to smaller drivers, the amount of excursion increases enormously, a 12” subwoofer would only need to move about 5mm one way to reproduce a 40hz wave at 100dB/1m, while a 6.5” driver would need to move nearly 17mm. This kind of excursion would destroy most small woofers, which likely have an xmax of 6mm. A ported box halves the excursion requirement at frequencies near the tuning, but that’s still about 8.5”.

Since woofers in two way speakers also must cover mid bass and midrange frequencies, they can’t be made super heavy with a very compliant suspension like a sub, because the driver has to move back and forth quickly to reproduce higher frequencies linearly. To do this effectively, the driver must be light, which also means thin. A thin small driver moving 4x a much a a thick, large subwoofer is going to flex, leading to lots of distortion at lower frequencies.

This is why people use subwoofers. I would be less concerned with bass response of the speakers (so long as it can cover down to about 60-70hz). The largest benefit of a bigger speaker is higher output with lower distortion at all frequencies. Use a sub for the bass.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
That was quick? :confused:
 
B

bradymartin

Full Audioholic
ordered 305s

just now realized i dont know how to set these up on my computer desktop.

my computer has only one audio headphone jack and i have only one 3.5 cable?
 
Y

yepimonfire

Audioholic Samurai
ordered 305s

just now realized i dont know how to set these up on my computer desktop.

my computer has only one audio headphone jack and i have only one 3.5 cable?
You need a 3.5mm to trs cable, like this one https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B005HGM1D6/ref=pd_aw_lpo_267_bs_tr_img_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=M7NY1JYZ3P0MMAH4ZM5M

Btw, if you ever decide to add a sub, assuming the pc has a multichannel sound card, windows has built in bass management in the audio settings, simply go into playback devices, ht configure on your sound card and uncheck the full range boxes, then go into properties and click “bass management” under the enhancement, you can configure the xover point from there.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
B

bradymartin

Full Audioholic
went to guitar center to demo but forgot to bring music.
anyway without demoing they price matched the bhphoto deal.

got them setup. cant tell the difference between these and the 230s regarding tweeter which is good.
wont turn them loud to test the bass until a week of breakin.

question. the volume on back default on both speakers was all the way up.
is that correct? i left that alone and use volume on computer.
 
B

bradymartin

Full Audioholic
im in love again

search is over

im hearing static though it seems to go away when a song starts, i think
 
Last edited:
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