Is my local audio guy being honest?

selden

selden

Audioholic
Be sure to ask the installer about what warranty services they're willing to provide. Many local A/V resellers will take care of all of the paperwork and shipping costs if anything has to be repaired -- and either replace the problem equipment from their stock or provide a loaner while you wait for it to be returned.

This is the major difference between buying cheap over the net and paying a local company to do the install for you. If you buy the equipment yourself, you have to be the one responsible for contacting whoever you bought it from or the manufacturer, getting an RMA, packaging it and shipping it, at your expense, along with being without anything while it's getting repaired.

Three of the four pieces of equipment that I got for myself for Christmas had to be returned to fix glitches of one kind or another. I was very glad not to worry about the paperwork and shipping.

(The receiver needed a firmware update to fix an audio dropout problem, the DLP projector had a failed-white pixel after less than 50 hours of operation, and the BD player had an intermittent startup problem with some discs.)
 
P

parinshah

Audioholic
Is he fibbing again????

Here is the next email:

Your HDMI cable will not get you 1080p. Any HDMI cable over about 10 feet will start having problems with 1080p. The HDMI baluns can do this up to 75 feet with cat 5 cable.

The blu-ray player has a wifi card built in for downloading updates. Blu-rays keep changing their security which requires the players to be updated regularly to keep up so the discs can be played. This has been a real problem for a while now. This feature is more important than Netflix and other online media.

I am out of room on budget. The reduction in equipment does not make the labor any less. We still have the same amount of work to do. If we get done quicker I will be happy to reduce the labor charge. Have a great day.

I think someone already said I won't have problems with 30' of HDMI, right?
He wants me to buy the $400 blu ray player for updates?
 
selden

selden

Audioholic
Here is the next email:

Your HDMI cable will not get you 1080p. Any HDMI cable over about 10 feet will start having problems with 1080p. The HDMI baluns can do this up to 75 feet with cat 5 cable.

The blu-ray player has a wifi card built in for downloading updates. Blu-rays keep changing their security which requires the players to be updated regularly to keep up so the discs can be played. This has been a real problem for a while now. This feature is more important than Netflix and other online media.

I am out of room on budget. The reduction in equipment does not make the labor any less. We still have the same amount of work to do. If we get done quicker I will be happy to reduce the labor charge. Have a great day.

I think someone already said I won't have problems with 30' of HDMI, right?
He wants me to buy the $400 blu ray player for updates?
I wouldn't call it fibbing, exactly. I suspect he's trying to simplify his explanation, and doesn't want to take the time to explain all the details.

Cat6 cables+baluns are much easier to manage physically than long HDMI cables. i.e. significantly less installation time is needed. (see below)

Less expensive players certainly are available these days which allow firmware updates over the network along with movie downloads from NetFlix and Pandora, but most don't have WiFi support and would require a cable to be run to your router. Also, their manufacturers have made compromises in their physical construction in order to keep their costs down. If you want to watch many movies on disc, you need a player that can stand up to a lot of use.

As I wrote previously, if the installer is willing to fix problems at no additional charge, that can be worth a lot, even if the hardware choices aren't as cheap as you might like.

Some background info on cables:

Fighting with HDMI cable configurations has wasted a lot of time for many people. Too often cables that should work don't.

Getting a long HDMI cable with adequate quality to carry 1080p/60 reliably often can be a problem. They have to be certified Category 2. Long HDMI cables also usually require an external HDMI signal booster, which does more than just amplify the signal, and costs about as much as the "balun" your installer is recommending.

In order to have the bandwidth necessary to pass Category 2 certification, long HDMI cables have to be significantly thicker (and thus stiffer) than short HDMI cables. They have to use 22 gauge or even 20 gauge wires internally. This stiffness can cause problems with the connections. They need to have adequate external strain relief to prevent them from unplugging themselves due to the weight of the cable. Pulling the cables through a conduit can be a serious issue, too.

FWIW. I'm using a 15 meter (50 ft) AudioQuest X series HDMI cable between my pre/pro and the projector. It works fine for me, but the projector includes builtin regeneration for HDMI signals: it has a separate service menu setting for cables which are longer than 15 meters. My impression is that most projectors don't have this. Also, the cable is run around the interior of the room and not in a conduit.

However, I've had to make compromises to make the system work reliably. For example, I configured the BD player to always output 1080p/60, even for 24fps movies. Switching framerates tended to cause loss of sync, often resulting in the projector shutting down.
 
MidnightSensi

MidnightSensi

Audioholic Samurai
Decent cable, 50ft is no problem. Most of us on here with projectors are using HDMI cables run long distances. It's digital, if it makes it, it makes it. Extremely long lengths, then you start to need to amplify, but I think at your lengths you'd be fine.

As far as the updates, it is nice to have for updating firmware and so forth. Get a decent blu-ray player. If you want to save some money, get the Oppo 80 for under 300 bucks.
 
Alex2507

Alex2507

Audioholic Slumlord
It's digital, if it makes it, it makes it.
I don't think that's 100% accurate according to something I read and failed to understand completely. I'm pretty sure that BJC has HDMI cables that are at the top of their game for less money than it costs to launch the space shuttle.

Get a decent blu-ray player.
How about the Panny BD60 for ~ $130? :confused:

In response to the thread title: No, he's not being honest ... he's a salesman. :p
 
H

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Be sure to ask the installer about what warranty services they're willing to provide. Many local A/V resellers will take care of all of the paperwork and shipping costs if anything has to be repaired -- and either replace the problem equipment from their stock or provide a loaner while you wait for it to be returned.

This is the major difference between buying cheap over the net and paying a local company to do the install for you. If you buy the equipment yourself, you have to be the one responsible for contacting whoever you bought it from or the manufacturer, getting an RMA, packaging it and shipping it, at your expense, along with being without anything while it's getting repaired.

Three of the four pieces of equipment that I got for myself for Christmas had to be returned to fix glitches of one kind or another. I was very glad not to worry about the paperwork and shipping.

(The receiver needed a firmware update to fix an audio dropout problem, the DLP projector had a failed-white pixel after less than 50 hours of operation, and the BD player had an intermittent startup problem with some discs.)
How defective equipment is dealt with depends on how it was bought by the installer. Most who are on their own don't stock equipment, so we buy it through our distributors. The manufacturer may have a 30/60/90 day exchange policy but I wouldn't assume anything. The service policies are far different from the way they were in the '70s, '80s and '90s, when a lot of stores had trained service techs. Now, most manufacturers require the piece to be returned.

Shipping is extra. I can't see making the installer pay shipping they sold it and it was stated at the time of purchase. Manufacturers are incredibly stingy now- they don't even want to pay labor when the option is to make the customer wait until it's sent back, repaired and returned (which I think is a BS policy).

Why couldn't you do the firmware update yourself?
 
H

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Here is the next email:

Your HDMI cable will not get you 1080p. Any HDMI cable over about 10 feet will start having problems with 1080p. The HDMI baluns can do this up to 75 feet with cat 5 cable.

The blu-ray player has a wifi card built in for downloading updates. Blu-rays keep changing their security which requires the players to be updated regularly to keep up so the discs can be played. This has been a real problem for a while now. This feature is more important than Netflix and other online media.

I am out of room on budget. The reduction in equipment does not make the labor any less. We still have the same amount of work to do. If we get done quicker I will be happy to reduce the labor charge. Have a great day.

I think someone already said I won't have problems with 30' of HDMI, right?
He wants me to buy the $400 blu ray player for updates?
Point 1- BS! You can go well over 10' before it has problems with 1080p. I helped a friend do a theater for someone and the HDMI cable is 35'- no problems and it's the only way the projector gets 1080p from the BD player. The client insisted on using his old receiver (if he had used a new Denon starting with the AVR-990/3310CI), it would have up-scaled from any source to HDMI 1080p/60 or 24 frame.

The WiFi card is nice but many BD players have an ethernet port and they cost far less. Hard wire it and you'll never have a WiFi issue. If you run out of ports on your router, buy a workgroup switch- they're cheap and plug & play.

The better reason to use the ethernet connection is so you can stream NetFlix, HULU, etc. Updates can be downloaded to a computer, saved to a disc and loaded into the BD player if it's not network-enabled.
 
J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
Here is the next email:

Your HDMI cable will not get you 1080p. Any HDMI cable over about 10 feet will start having problems with 1080p. The HDMI baluns can do this up to 75 feet with cat 5 cable.

The blu-ray player has a wifi card built in for downloading updates. Blu-rays keep changing their security which requires the players to be updated regularly to keep up so the discs can be played. This has been a real problem for a while now. This feature is more important than Netflix and other online media.

I am out of room on budget. The reduction in equipment does not make the labor any less. We still have the same amount of work to do. If we get done quicker I will be happy to reduce the labor charge. Have a great day.

I think someone already said I won't have problems with 30' of HDMI, right?
He wants me to buy the $400 blu ray player for updates?
BULLSHIT. Anyways, you said yourself no more than 30' is needed.

Even a $42 Monoprice 25ft cable passed all tests except the one that doesn't exist yet (but may soon with 3D 60p x2) at the AH 50 cable shootout.

Remember, movies are at 24p, so the above is moot anyhow. What, our broadcast providers are really going to have have the bandwidth to supply a good 60p x2 for 3D television? Hm. Call me skeptical.

Panasonic OWNS the majority of bluray patents. They were making reliable players from the very beginning, while LG was fiddling around with dual format players with outdated HDMI specs. Alas, more bullshit.

Those test results. Yeah, even a $1400 HDMI cable (albeit 12m) was vastly outperformed by the Monoprice.
http://www.audioholics.com/education/cables/long-hdmi-cable-bench-tests/hdmi-cable-testing-results

EDIT: I want to reiterate that I've tried many lengths with my JVC projector, in a bat cave, on a double digit ft wide screen, almost exclusively fed blurays, researching PQ on almost every bought title, and I cannot for the life of me tell the difference between 15, 25, and 35 ft HDMI cables connected.

FWIW. I'm using a 15 meter (50 ft) AudioQuest X series HDMI cable between my pre/pro and the projector. It works fine for me, but the projector includes builtin regeneration for HDMI signals: it has a separate service menu setting for cables which are longer than 15 meters. My impression is that most projectors don't have this. Also, the cable is run around the interior of the room and not in a conduit.

However, I've had to make compromises to make the system work reliably. For example, I configured the BD player to always output 1080p/60, even for 24fps movies. Switching framerates tended to cause loss of sync, often resulting in the projector shutting down.
What is your projector?? I would be extremely disappointed not to feed my own PJ a 24p signal.
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
You can do updates to most players via a USB thumb drive or burn a CD or the manufacturer will even send you a disc if you like in nearly all cases.
 
Shock

Shock

Audioholic General
Here is the next email:

Your HDMI cable will not get you 1080p. Any HDMI cable over about 10 feet will start having problems with 1080p. The HDMI baluns can do this up to 75 feet with cat 5 cable.

The blu-ray player has a wifi card built in for downloading updates. Blu-rays keep changing their security which requires the players to be updated regularly to keep up so the discs can be played. This has been a real problem for a while now. This feature is more important than Netflix and other online media.

I am out of room on budget. The reduction in equipment does not make the labor any less. We still have the same amount of work to do. If we get done quicker I will be happy to reduce the labor charge. Have a great day.

I think someone already said I won't have problems with 30' of HDMI, right?
He wants me to buy the $400 blu ray player for updates?
Honestly, at this point I would go with another company. That first point is 100% BS. Good HDMI cables can provide 1080p to distances upward of 100 feet. Blu-ray players can get firmware updates through usb thumb drives, a LAN connection, a burned dvd-r will even work with the firmware burned onto it. I mean how many blu-ray players actually use wifi to update or connect to blu-ray live content? Very few use this technology. Netflix is much more important in my opinion than a wifi connection. If he's going to run all this stuff I see no reason why he couldn't run a cat6 connection from your router to your AV stack.

The lie about HDMI cables would have put me over the edge, and if someone would go to the trouble of lying to my face I would definitely let them know you're no push over. I suggest looking for a new company, or simply giving them the link to this thread so they know you have backing of the best online AV community on the internet.

I HATE seeing people getting taken advantage of because they might not be knowlegable on a subject. I feel like this man is trying to take advantage of you and I cannot urge you enough to not agree to his prices and tactics. I worked in retail for 5 years, I have no problem with someone trying to upsell items. I do have a problem with lying to people to do it. This man is showing a pretty large lack of integrity in my opinion.
 
J

Josuah

Senior Audioholic
FWIW, I went with the Marantz AV8003 specifically for sound quality (and Audyssey). I personally wouldn't pick one of the Marantz receivers as a replacement.

You do need to run LPCM over HDMI for high definition lossless audio, otherwise Audyssey cannot be activated at the same time. And I would not use the built-in ABT video processor; my OPPO is a better DVD video processor.
 
P

parinshah

Audioholic
I am beginning to feel like this company that quoted me is like dealing with a used car salesman as opposed to a good audio/video company.

thanks all for your help!
 
JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Ninja
Are we being trolled?

OP: Guy said this: is he lying?
US: Yes, run away.
OP: OK, same guy now saying this too. Is he lying
US: Yes, run away.
OP: So now I'm discussing this other thing with the same guy and he says this: is he lying?

Seriously? How is this thread still ongoing?
 
P

parinshah

Audioholic
Well, a guy comes to my house and seems genuine here and I really do want to believe him...so i give him a first, second and third chance.

Again...thanks for all your thoughts. Other than learning that you guys saved me from being tooled, I learned a lot from each reply.

Don't worry, this thread ends here.
 
Shock

Shock

Audioholic General
Are we being trolled?

OP: Guy said this: is he lying?
US: Yes, run away.
OP: OK, same guy now saying this too. Is he lying
US: Yes, run away.
OP: So now I'm discussing this other thing with the same guy and he says this: is he lying?

Seriously? How is this thread still ongoing?
How are you even asking that question?

It's pretty obvious that this man is asking for help and you want to belittle his position. Pretty douchebag move in my opinion. This is the kind of thread this forum is all about, helping people who need help.

He obviously has a ton of questions and isn't that knowledgable in the A/V world. If you think he's trolling then you obviously haven't dealt with someone who is a rookie in a particular subject.

I find your response pretty unwelcoming.
 
JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Ninja
How are you even asking that question?

It's pretty obvious that this man is asking for help and you want to belittle his position. Pretty douchebag move in my opinion. This is the kind of thread this forum is all about, helping people who need help.

He obviously has a ton of questions and isn't that knowledgable in the A/V world. If you think he's trolling then you obviously haven't dealt with someone who is a rookie in a particular subject.

I find your response pretty unwelcoming.
Perhaps you should re-read my post, and see if you can understand why your response makes me feel you have not done so (specifically since you falsely imply my issue is the OP's lack of knowledge).

Then, as you consider your moral outrage at unwelcoming comments: ponder your use of words like "douchebag" when describing other people.

Or don't.

To parinshah:
While the exchange I paraphrased certainly raised a flag for me; I'm certainly not shouting "he's a troll" at you. Unlike our above poster, I'm guessing you understood my concern as your post spoke to it.

Ask questions: always ask questions. You've got some good ones. I'm sorry your local guy was giving you such bad advice. I hope you can find someone more reputable.
 

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