Is my local audio guy being honest?

[64met]

Wow...thanks for all the advice...or pretty much slamming the idea of a pre-amp.

To give him one last fair shot these are his charges based on a Marantz receiver not a preamp (keep in mind all prewire, speaker wire etc already done, except for HDMI wiring):

Epson 8500UB - $2,299
Espon ceiling bracket - $195
Marantz SR5004 - $849
LG BD570 DVD - $349
Apple TV - $249
Gefen HDMI over CAT 5 Balun - $399
Universal MX850 remote - $399
Universal RF remote sensor - $249
Interconnects - $350
Labor for Install, design, program - $1200

Total pre-tax =$6289

Is this decent deal?

As you decide what to purchase; remember these guys more than likely are charging more on the actual cost of the gear you could find yourself less expensive; maybe used. Shop around (audiogon; videogon; accessories4less; ebay) etc. Good luck http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/MARSR5004/Marantz/SR5004-Dolby-TrueHD-PLIIz-/-dts-HD-MA-AV-Receiver/1.html

 

[Codifus]

Your comparison of an analog preamp to a modern DAC with preamp controls is not a fair analogy to one modern Marantz receiver to a modern Marantz preamp/processor.

Perhaps, but separates used to mean better, and a modern receiver only has more functions packed into it. Before, a receiver was a tuner, pre-amp, and a 2 channel amplifier all in one. Now the receiver is tuner, D/A converter, DSP, pre-amp, and finally a 5-to-7 channel amplifier, all packed into one unit. Putting all that technology into one space must be very challenging to engineers when it comes to producing great audio. The quality of the components may have improved, but they also stuffed a whole lot more activity into the receiver. This is part of the reason that the DAC has become its own component of a hifi system. The DAC used to be inside the CD player/soundcard/DAT etc. Still is, of course. But now, DACs have become their own segment in HIFI.

Although it's likely a large part of your perceived difference between your AX-596's preamp section and the Beresford dac/preamp unless one has a significant SNR edge over the other, which is very possible.

And it is also very possible that the old adage still applies, that separates do sound better.

If you lurk around this forum you will notice common mention of level matched DBTs (double blind testing) that discount audible differences between varrying products of varrying prices on many, many occasions.

My comparison was my same units in two different configurations. Of course DBTs can discount audible differences. I believe that DBTs are not the definitive answer to audibilty tests.

CD

 

[PENG]

I believe that DBTs are not the definitive answer to audibilty tests.

CD

I agree, probably not definitive, but definitely discount claims of huge, day and night, things I could never hear before, open my speakers up (have to guess what this one means), even at low volume, etc., unless we assume when people made those claims they simply exaggerated (relative to the generally accepted meaning of those expressions/adjectives) the difference/improvements they perceived, in order to make their points clear.

 

[highfigh]

If he replaces the processor with a receiver that has RCA outputs, the installer will need to run new cables down the rack. Possibly, the installer likes the idea of plugging the system in without having to make or buy RCA to XLR cables.

Oh, the horrors!

If I ever hear an installer say that he doesn't want to run new cables down the rack, he'll never hear the end of it because that would be one of the lamest reasons I have ever heard. If he worked for me, I'd make him lace racks until he keels over. I know a couple of guys who aren't good at dresswork and one is just a major whiner, about everything. He gets confused looking at his own system, which consists of a combo DVD/VCR, cable box, a 5.1 receiver and speakers and a TV that has a main control box with one big cable to the TV.

 

[MidnightSensi]

Oh, the horrors!

If I ever hear an installer say that he doesn't want to run new cables down the rack, he'll never hear the end of it because that would be one of the lamest reasons I have ever heard. If he worked for me, I'd make him lace racks until he keels over. I know a couple of guys who aren't good at dresswork and one is just a major whiner, about everything. He gets confused looking at his own system, which consists of a combo DVD/VCR, cable box, a 5.1 receiver and speakers and a TV that has a main control box with one big cable to the TV.

It's more of a business thing. Labor cost kills installers, and while a more expensive pre-amp is what it is, what ends up getting wheeled and dealed is the labor. So, if they can keep the installation quick, it is best for their pocket. To quote the guy with the receiver, they'll have to do some RCA to XLR which would actually raise their labor costs.... but hard for them to justify, so some of it they would just have to eat. I see it all the time. Selecting equipment that works with what is wired to keep the job cost down. Easier to say that this pre-amp costs X amount of dollars than having to explain the labor of making and dressing cables.

I'm not saying I agree that is how it should be sold, I'm just saying that's a possibility why the installer wants the pre-pro sold so bad.


...
Get the Integra or Onkyo Pro.

 

[parinshah]

Internet vs. the local guy

I agree that I could find the equipment cheaper online. But, every AV guy I talk to in the Houston says that they are "turn key", and that they only install components that they sell! How can I buy stuff online and get it installed?

I really appreciate everyone's thoughts. Thanks for your time.

 

[ParadigmDawg]

Buy it and ask one of us to run by and help you hook it up. We charge around a 6 pack of cold ones...

I agree that I could find the equipment cheaper online. But, every AV guy I talk to in the Houston says that they are "turn key", and that they only install components that they sell! How can I buy stuff online and get it installed?

I really appreciate everyone's thoughts. Thanks for your time.

 

[parinshah]

If I could get one of you guys, I wouldn't squabble over just a 6 pack...I would surely get a nice keg and keep y'all happy for a good amount of time!

 

[highfigh]

It's more of a business thing. Labor cost kills installers, and while a more expensive pre-amp is what it is, what ends up getting wheeled and dealed is the labor. So, if they can keep the installation quick, it is best for their pocket. To quote the guy with the receiver, they'll have to do some RCA to XLR which would actually raise their labor costs.... but hard for them to justify, so some of it they would just have to eat. I see it all the time. Selecting equipment that works with what is wired to keep the job cost down. Easier to say that this pre-amp costs X amount of dollars than having to explain the labor of making and dressing cables.

I'm not saying I agree that is how it should be sold, I'm just saying that's a possibility why the installer wants the pre-pro sold so bad.

...
Get the Integra or Onkyo Pro.

Labor costs only kill installers when they underbid or don't charge for it. Otherwise, they charge for their time, materials and travel.

I would guess that it's either old stock or it was ordered for some reason and maybe the buyer backed out. I have a ReQuest music server that I had to buy as part of my opening order. I haven't been too eager to get rid of it because I really like it.

 

[highfigh]

And it is also very possible that the old adage still applies, that separates do sound better.

I would change that to "separates can sound better". It's not an absolute and while I have agreed with it for a long time, I just bought a receiver (first one in over 30 years). It sounds damn good.

 

[jamie2112]

I am sure there are companies in Houston that will install gear you bought.There has to be.Check the local Craigslist for an installer,or put an ad in yourself looking for a licensed installer on CL.....

 

[jostenmeat]

Wow...thanks for all the advice...or pretty much slamming the idea of a pre-amp.

Marantz is well liked around here. What I personally dislike about Marantz (as an avid Audyssey tech user), are that:

1. the Audyssey suite cannot be applied to advanced codec bitstreams
2. The highest form of Audyssey they even offer is MultEQ (no XT version)
3. matrixing rear speakers from 5.1 sources also cannot be applied to advanced codec bitstreams

Anyhoo, that's just one person's take on it . . .

To give him one last fair shot these are his charges based on a Marantz receiver not a preamp (keep in mind all prewire, speaker wire etc already done, except for HDMI wiring):

Epson 8500UB - $2,299
That's pretty much street price.

Espon ceiling bracket - $195
That includes mount, pipe, and all? It better. Otherwise, you can choose your own universal type of mount, Chief, whatever, that can be used on any future PJ upgrade.

Marantz SR5004 - $849
I put my 2 cents in already here. I'd personally go towards Denon or Onkyo.

LG BD570 DVD - $349
It blows my mind whenever I see someone in the store choose a DVD player over a similarly priced Bluray player. You can try a Panasonic bdp for about $130, for savings of over $200. EDIT: oops that's a bdp. Ok, make sure you want the streaming suite, if that's the reason why you choose LG. I don't care, and that's why someone like me gets a Panny.

Apple TV - $249
no comment

Gefen HDMI over CAT 5 Balun - $399
wut

Universal MX850 remote - $399
Universal RF remote sensor - $249
You can save $568 by getting an RFS200 URC combo pack at Amazon.

Interconnects - $350
I've already had at least a 15ft, 25ft, and 35ft HDMI cable hooked up to my PJ, and the three of them total less than $100. Buy Monoprice. Estimated savings of more than $250


Total savings after one look-see is already over $1,000.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Forgot to add...do i really need a balun or am I getting taken here too? .

Thanks

How long would the HDMI cable run be???
I tend to favor them over CAt 5 workarounds.

Oh, and don't rush into this project. Pre-planning is critical. And, I doubt it is time sensitive.

 

[parinshah]

Man...thanks for the breakdown...saving a grand is huge! Everyone's feedback has been great.

Do I need a Balun? I don't understand the point of this, please explain.

How much is appropriate charge for this type of install?

 

[parinshah]

The HDMI run would be no more than 30'

 

[jostenmeat]

The HDMI run would be no more than 30'

Where do you live? Heck, I can trade you my 35 footer for a bluray or two. lol.

 

[parinshah]

Sugar Land, TX (suburb of Houston)

 

[jostenmeat]

How much is appropriate charge for this type of install?

I don't really know. If you search some of BMXTRIX or highfigh's posts, you might find some answers. Or do search by title too.

However, many dealers are authorized to sell certain brands. Also, the more you look to bargain on these products, the more they might want to charge you (they need to make money somewhere). If you pay greater premiums for these products, they OTOH might be willing to negotiate more on the install.

BMX is pretty cool in that he passes on savings by indeed choosing Monoprice for all or almost all cabling, finding certain automation products like Crestron from ebay, etc, for his customers. He also often chooses internet direct for projection screens (Carada). I suppose he can then charge a fair price on install, and perhaps also benefits from happy customers and good word of mouth. Just a different type of example.

Then, OTOH, I know a few installers. They typically just try to make as much money as possible, at least for wealthier customers. Upsell, you know the game.

I live on the west coast, but if you are interested in a trade, just PM me whenever. Cheers, and good luck.

 

[highfigh]

There's no reason to use a balun system unless the Cat5e cables are already in place and it's impossible to run an HDMI. Baluns are for extremely long runs, not 30'. Gefen are more expensive, but they work better than many of the other brands.

Your local economy and the capabilities of the installer(s) will determine how much the labor costs. If you go to a one-man operation, it's less because the overhead is lower and many of us who work for ourselves are at least as well trained as the guys working for the specialists.

If you find someone on Craig's list, they're either doing side jobs (generally a conflict of interests) and often, they aren't very qualified.

 

[64met]

I agree that I could find the equipment cheaper online. But, every AV guy I talk to in the Houston says that they are "turn key", and that they only install components that they sell! How can I buy stuff online and get it installed?

I really appreciate everyone's thoughts. Thanks for your time.

That is total BS! I live in Dallas and EVERY HT person I called (which I received quotes from 5) agreed to install everything regardless of where I bought it. In fact; the only item I bought from my HT guy was the RF remote which I belive I paid around $299 for. My speakers I bought direct from Aperion, my projector (used) My pre-amp (used). Point is; shop around and you will save $$