Is Audioholics Brainwashing Us?

[Johnny Canuck]

I posted on another thread this thought. Here is the link:

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=82686#post82686

If you read a little down you will get the gist of the conversation.

Basically, I want opinions on this and I am not flaming Clint or any of the moderators here. Why is it that people in the real world have never heard of companies that we have read countless articles and reviews on? (Hsu, SVS, RBH,Axiom etc) . And I know these companies are internet order, but surely SOMEONE has heard of them???? . Are store salesmaen lying that they don't know about these companies because they can't compete? They surely must read the same magazines or press releases. Are we being misled or do others not have a clue? If you go to the Polk website forums, they think we are all a bunch of sheep being led down the path of gullability.

Maybe this thread should have been called "Is there an Audio Conspiracy??"

 

[Buckle-meister]

Why is it that people in the real world have never heard of companies that we have read countless articles and reviews on? (Hsu, SVS, RBH,Axiom etc) .

I could easily imagine that at least part of the answer lies in location. I, for example, have never heard of those companies, but then, I'm from the UK.

In one of my first posts, mrnomas replied:

Not having any experience with your brand of speakers...

He had never heard of my Mission speakers, yet here in the UK (Mission is based in England), Mission is a very well known manufacturer of speakers.

Regards

 

[mulester7]

Are store salesmaen lying that they don't know about these companies because they can't compete? They surely must read the same magazines or press releases.

.....Johnny, I worked with a pastor one time who seemed to see a tongue-speaker behind every tree, haha....the almighty snake-skin rules this World, and that's no revelation, is it?....if this were my site that requires funding, I would lean to pushing funders every time, now there it is....I would strive though, to only push QUALITY from those lines, and that seems to be, being done.....

.....yes, with an attitude of letting the ears of the shoveler-outer decide, we choose a wiser path....

 

[MDS]

There is another way to look at it:

Audioholics chooses to promote those companies and products that they have evaluated and in their opinion are a good value. The evaluation is part objective measurements and part subjective impressions.

That's it. You get to know the audioholics approach to evaluating audio and video equipment by reading the feature articles and discussing them on the forums. Some things you agree with and others you do not. That's really no different than other sites or magazines. It's one more source of solid information to add to any others you regularly use. You still have to do your own research and make your own decisions.

 

[furrycute]

Some internet speaker companie are fairly shady in marketing their speakers (no names here less the flames of team rocket comes back again, oops, I did it again...).


I find audioholics pretty good among the many audio forums I've frequented.
1) No BS audiophile pseudoscience accepted here.
2) No fairy dust sprinkled $10,000 cables and powercords accepted here.
3) No audiophile grade fuse accepted here.

The list goes on.

 

[zilla]

I posted on another thread this thought. Here is the link:

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=82686#post82686

If you read a little down you will get the gist of the conversation.

Basically, I want opinions on this and I am not flaming Clint or any of the moderators here. Why is it that people in the real world have never heard of companies that we have read countless articles and reviews on? (Hsu, SVS, RBH,Axiom etc) . And I know these companies are internet order, but surely SOMEONE has heard of them???? . Are store salesmaen lying that they don't know about these companies because they can't compete? They surely must read the same magazines or press releases. Are we being misled or do others not have a clue? If you go to the Polk website forums, they think we are all a bunch of sheep being led down the path of gullability.

Maybe this thread should have been called "Is there an Audio Conspiracy??"

Being a newbie to home theater and this board, I can't lend much insight to the questions you've raised. I just wanted to ask which store you would be referring to, when speaking about salesmen. If you're referring to a place like Best Buy or Circuit City, then dear god no they're not lying. They don't have a clue about other companies that they don't sell... why should they? It will help them to know everything they can about the companies they do sell. Most employees of those stores (obviously there are exceptions) aren't home audio fanatics... they don't read about it daily like we do... they don't dream about it like we do... it's just a job for them. Not a lifestyle

Also, of the people that go into a store like those two each day, how many do you figure have heard of Axiom or Sunfire (insert company name)? Sure guys like us visit these stores, but I'd wager that 95% of their everyday customer haven't a clue about the products we read and discuss here. And the majority of them don't care. I mean... how many folks looking at speakers at Best Buy will actually pay much attention to Athena's line... they're going to gravitate directly to the Klipsch and Bose displays. I probably would have a month ago

 

[Johnny Canuck]

Buckle-meister: aren't Mission made by Denon? If you go to Denon.ca, the Canadian website, you see Mission speakers there. I have always heard great stuff about them, especially in the 80's when i was growing up.

 

[Rock&Roll Ninja]

Why is it that people in the real world have never heard of companies that we have read countless articles and reviews on?

Because the really big companies everyone knows about (Klipsch, JBL, Bose, Def Tech, etc etc) are already getting their products reviewed in the big magazines. Audioholics caters towards the internet-exclusive companies that won't or can't pay what the big magazines ask for (in purchased ad space) in return for product reviews.

 

[Buckle-meister]

Buckle-meister: aren't Mission made by Denon? If you go to Denon.ca, the Canadian website, you see Mission speakers there.

Can you show the full link? I can only see two speakers, both by Denon.

As far as I am aware, Denon is owned by D.M.Holdings. Mission was recently acquired by the I.A.G. Group, which also owns Leak, Quad and Wharfedale.

I have always heard great stuff about them, especially in the 80's when i was growing up.

Years ago, when I was starting to get into Hi-Fi, I always fancied a pair of Mission 753's. Although a little 'boxy' looking now, at the time they were tall, elegant, and a very successfull loudspeaker. Over the last few years, I don't think Mission have been doing so well, but recently, they came out with their Flagship 'Pilastro' speakers (exorbitant price), and based on these, the 'Elegante' range.

Well, I had to wait a while, but last Christmas, I finally decided to take the plunge and overhaul my existing system mainly comprising Musical Fidelity's Elektra range Pre, Power and CD player. I got the Mission Elegante 5.1 speaker package, InFocus 5700 DLP projector, Yamaha DSP-Z9 and, just one week ago (when it finally arrived), Yamaha's S2500 DVD player.

The wait was worth it. I have never heard music sound so incredibly detailed and taut, and the Home Theatre side of the coin impresses just as much. Sitting with the remote in one hand and a whiskey in the other, I find myself thinking: life sure is sweet.

Regards

 

[Audioholics]

FWIW - there are several things happening that work together:

1. We tend to not talk about or promote products that we don't review. Keep in mind that we'll review anyone's products, but there are simply companies out there that do not want to send us their products (Paradigm is a good example as they have stated clearly that they do not wish to send us anything for review). Obviously, even though I'm sure Paradigm products aren't garbage, I'm not going to go out of my way to promote a company that doesn't even work with us. One additional thing to keep in mind (and I'm not being specific here) is that we tend to provide measurements and more objective testing of higher level products - and some companies simply prefer less critical reviews. Take that any way you'd like.<br>
   
2. Mainstream products are mainstream for a reason. They are widely distributed to larger chain stores, thus the familiarity factor is much higher. More people hear about them. Since Axiom, Carada, DVIGear and Emotiva (for example) aren't in Best Buy/Circuit City/etc (or their weekly fliers) - it's harder for people to hear about them unless they are audionuts or one of the many readers who come here each month. Count yourself 'informed' that you are exposed to these companies and not just privy to what's pushed at you through chain stores.<br>
   
3. Dealer-less products (Internet-based direct-to-consumer manufacturers) have a potential for a slight edge in that the product gets marked up once (instead of twice when a dealer is involved). So the end price is generally cheaper. Here's where this breaks down - Japanese electronics (mass market manufacturers) have a TON more resources at their disposal and tend to make solid, bug-less, advanced products for much cheaper than even Internet-direct electronics companies (this is a HUGE generalization and may not apply to everyone, nor may it apply in the near future). That's why we're so supportive of mass-market electronics yet really big on "non-mainstream" speaker manufacturers.<br>
   
4. We openly promote companies who we believe in. We do this for selfish reasons - if they make tons of money, then they will invest more in their products and make even cooler stuff for us to buy and play with.

It's hard to talk about this stuff without stepping on anybody's toes, so please take this as simple insight into our thought process and don't read too many absolutes into these statements if you can help it. If you have any hate-mail, please feel free to sent it to idagivadarn@audioholics.com

 

[furrycute]

Value is a relative statement.

It is true that Internet direct speakers only have one middleman. But from what I have seen, the prices on most of the speakers offered by these internet companies approach the prices of mainstream speakers of similar build.

Looking at it another way, the savings of leaving out the second or the third middleman are not necessarily passed on to the consumer. The savings are going to a higher profit margin for the first middleman.

With mainstream speakers, there are occassional manufacturer discounts, dealer discounts, etc., they can come out cheaper than internet brand speakers of similar build.


I also have problems with the "marketing strategy" of one internet speaker company in particular, that borders on deception, intimidation, and inciting mass hysteria on many audio forums on the net.

 

[Johnny Canuck]

Furrycute: you aren't a moderator. You can't get into trouble here. Who is it?

I found SVS to be like that and would guess that is who you are talking about. Very aggressive marketing, bordering on intimidation as you said.

 

[furrycute]

Furrycute: you aren't a moderator. You can't get into trouble here. Who is it?

I found SVS to be like that and would guess that is who you are talking about. Very aggressive marketing, bordering on intimidation as you said.

My experience is with another internet brand speaker company. Although I can certainly understand what you mean by SVS's aggressive marketing.

I am not going to name names, because about 6 months back, there was quite an unpleasant experience involving me, a couple of audioholics members who defended me, and an entire legion of "loyalists" of that speaker compnay.

Just because I posted a negative post about their speakers and their marketing tactics, I was bashed over and over and over. And that "legion" were ALL newly registered, just around the time of my post. And that "legion" have since vanished from audioholics without a trace. Guess audioholics has become insignificant in their overall marketing scheme.

That experience was VERY unpleasant, and left a bitter taste in my mouth.

 

[furrycute]

Found the old thread,

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6855

 

[HookedOnSound]

I posted on another thread this thought. Here is the link:

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=82686#post82686

If you read a little down you will get the gist of the conversation.

Basically, I want opinions on this and I am not flaming Clint or any of the moderators here. Why is it that people in the real world have never heard of companies that we have read countless articles and reviews on? (Hsu, SVS, RBH,Axiom etc) . And I know these companies are internet order, but surely SOMEONE has heard of them???? . Are store salesmaen lying that they don't know about these companies because they can't compete? They surely must read the same magazines or press releases. Are we being misled or do others not have a clue? If you go to the Polk website forums, they think we are all a bunch of sheep being led down the path of gullability.

Maybe this thread should have been called "Is there an Audio Conspiracy??"

Some companies don't give a hoot about honest reviews, heck I even think Paradigm owns one of the online review magazines (I could be mistaken), nothing but chocolately cursory reviews.

And as for salesmen, you can't blame them for not mentioning product lines they don't sell, they don't make commission on sending you to someone else's storefront.

Sadly enough, alot of manufacturers simply don't realize the potential/benefits of marketing online and/or are too scared to submit their products for reviews with objectional test results.

The internet is changing boundaries to a level that is still evolving. IMO, traditional marketing/mfg'ing/distribution models will still exist for mass-market products but use of the internet will provide an easier route for better value products that will benefit consumers for 'specialty products' and high-end products with low production. The strength of the internet for these niche companies will be adaptability for their needs.

Companies like Paradigm might not be at risk (yet) but I can bet their market share is eroding thanks to the likes of Axiom, HSU etc.

Knowledge is Power

 

[jeffsg4mac]

If you go to the Polk website forums, they think we are all a bunch of sheep being led down the path of gullability.

That's funny, because I have never heard a pair of Polks that sounded good. They all sound like you have socks stuffed in your ears. Hey they are sold at Circuit City so what does that tell you?

 

[Rock&Roll Ninja]

Just out of curiosity, why have loudspeaker companies ignored television advertising? The only place you can find an (speaker) ad is in an enthusiast magazine. This may be good marketing for the 1% of the population who subscribes, but what about the 99% of the population that is a potential customer who will never hear/read about the product? The music magazines (Rolling Stone, Blender) don't even have any loudspeaker ads, But they do have Monster Cable ads!

 

[Takeereasy]

Bose has used TV ads and currently has magazine ads all over the place. They also used to have that 30min infomercial to sell the clock radio they have. Anyone ever wonder why Bose rules supreme? There's your answer, aggressive marketing. I think it would be cost prohibitive for most companies to advertise on TV. I do think that a good place for several companies to advertise would be in the movie theatres. You know those annoying ads before the movie, why not push your product to an audience already in a position to be receptive to products that enhance movie watching at home.

 

[Johnny Canuck]

jeffsg4mac:

You summed up my point exactly. Your ignorance is what I am talking about. Not everything in a mass market store is crap. You just assume it, like most people around here.

JC

 

[Spiffyfast]

Noone is being brainwashed, I had never heard of Marantz or Paradigm or Energy, or SVS or any other specialized audio manufacturer before reading audioholics. It's just because they arent sold at Best Buy, Ultimate Electronics, and Circuit City which had been the only access that I had ever seen to audio products. Once learning about some of these other brands I began researching them and found some specialty stores in my area that carried them. For some things there is no comparison in sound from SOME models carried in Mass Market stores. I said some, there are products carried at these stores that hold their own against more known products. For example the Pioneer 1015tx I just purchased at Best Buy, checked out Marantz, Yamaha RXV line, Integra. For the money I couldn't beat the Pioneer, Best Buy even price matched it from an authorized internet retailer.

As for salesman never hearing about other products, I know from working in sales, no matter what you sell, your products are always the best, nobody can tell you different. And they will always push their products versus what they dont carry. Depending on where you go, they may in deed have never heard of any of these, I hate going to a place like best buy to look at audio, b/c I know more about it than probably everyone there selling it. If it's not something they sell, they have never heard of it, heck, even some of the stuff they do sell they dont know anything about. If you're going to specialty stores they are just feeding you BS that they have never heard of some of these brands, b/c everyone I've went into has pretty much heard of all of them, b/c they actually do research and learn about the products available so they can give pros and cons to sell their product over some other brand. Just as an example the Pioneer 9100tx and 9300tx, hundreds less than the supposed near duplicates of their Pioneer Elite counter parts, I was at ultimate electronics to check if they carried these and of course not b/c they carry the Elite line, I told the salesman they are the same receivers as the elite line, just rebadged to sell elsewhere. All he could tell me is that they were built using the same parts "but at different locations" and this different assembly plant made them worth the $400 more each. A completely BS statement but what does he have to gain from talking about the benefits of something he didnt sell.