Intelligent Design ruling

[mtrycrafts]

I'm sure we'll find out in the next life (assuming we don't become worm meal).
Did Mulester share this recently? http://www.theinterviewwithgod.com/

Whether you're into God or not, it's a neat presentation - especially for parents.

The pictures are fabulous

 

[mtrycrafts]

To me, this begs the question: If there is/was not a creator, then where did the matter that formed the earth come from? When did time start?
Sounds like many here are thinking linearly.
ID makes perfect sense to me. Whether or not the earth was created in a literal or figurative seven days (to God a day is as a thousand years and a thousand years as a day) makes little difference. Belief in the fact that He created it and is who He says he is does, however.

In due time, you may have answers or not. To understand 15 billion years may take a bit longer than your lifetime. But those in a hurry need something now and will accept anything that feels good to them and feel comfortable with but not necessarily the facts as that may be scary.

 

[Revelator]

Where's Waldo?

We seem to be missing someone. I think Clint is still back on page two.

Where's Clint-o?

 

[Rock&Roll Ninja]

This is the bestest thread ever! But I think it needs even more "alternative creation theories". What about Wicca, or Pastafarianism, or Hindi??? I have more Koreans in my neighborhood than Hispanics, how about a Buddhist theory of "intelligent design"?

 

[mustang_steve]

Mustang Steve,

I could not agree with you more. If you want your child to learn about creationism or any other faith based information, then you are more than welcomed to send them to private school.

If you have your kid in private school, stay the hell out of the corriculum when it comes to religion because you have NO BUSINESS being there.

If you want a choice, there it is. If you can't afford it and it's important enough for you, sell your house and rent an appartment. Leave public school out of your debate and move on with more important things like trying to figure out how your great grand kids are going to pay down the national debt we've compiled over the past six years.

Oh, and one more thing. Why is it that the very same group of fundamentalists who want smaller government and do not want socialized healthcare are now OK with having socialized religion? Isn't that yet another one of their hypocrisies?

Thing is, I tried the religion thing as a teen, so i do know that there are classes for free that deal with this...the church I went to had bible classes every week, where they taught the bible, and what each bit of it meant. So really, affording it is not a concern since there is already a means to that end.

Fundamentalists are sometimes a crazy lot...they get a little too tied up in their faith to sometmes see things from the other side. Sometimes they might just not care about the other side. I just wish more people thought about otherrs and not just their own beliefs.

Beliefs end at the believer
civilazation on the other hand ends at the boundaries of our existsance.

 

[Tomorrow]

Just for you all, for Christmas. Call this a proof of both sides...or neither. Just a reminder of beauty.

http://us.st11.yimg.com/store1.yimg.com/I/skyimage_1872_29492557

http://us.st11.yimg.com/store1.yimg.com/I/skyimage_1872_21845419 (Are we being watched?. LOL.)

Good cheer to all and Merry Christmas

 

[mtrycrafts]

Just for you all, for Christmas. Call this a proof of both sides...or neither. Just a reminder of beauty.

http://us.st11.yimg.com/store1.yimg.com/I/skyimage_1872_29492557

http://us.st11.yimg.com/store1.yimg.com/I/skyimage_1872_21845419 (Are we being watched?. LOL.)

Good cheer to all and Merry Christmas

Those are beautiful pictures. Someone did a great job of adding the colors

Yes, we are being watched all the time, by something. The sun is one object. LOL

 

[Pat D]

Just released this afternoon:

A federal judge in Pennsylvania ruled Tuesday that teaching "intelligent design" to public school science classes is unconstitutional, calling the concept that parts of the universe are the result of an intelligent designer "a religious view." -Jill Lawrence, USA TODAY

Full story:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-12-20-intel-design_x.htm

I don't really have the time or the inclinations to go through all the earlier posts. Has anyone actually read the trial transcripts in the Dover trial, not to mention the ruling by Judge Jones, which is perfectly justified? I did read most of the transcripts as the trial progressed and links can now be found on the NCSE site, along with the decision.

http://www2.ncseweb.org/wp/

I mean, it is obvious some of the main proponents of the policy lied about their statements and motivations; that the textbook was developed as a creationist textbook and that the substition of ID for creation simply means that in Of Pandas and People, ID = creationism.

Moreover, as the Judge said, ID might be right, but that it is not science because it is not testable and has absolutely no function in science. Supposing ID to be true, how does it help in science? How does it affect the question of whether dinosaurs have any descendants today, for example. The answer is that it doesn't. ID is not science and does not belong in a science class.

As well, ID could be dealt with in some other type of class, and in fact, the new school board seems to want to make it part of an elective social studies class. I presume that it might also be discussed in a history of religions or philosophy class, though these things are not usually taught in high school.

The Talk Origins Archive site has answers to just about every anti-evolutionist creationist argument you can think of.

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/

There is a vast amount of information available on other sections of the Talk Origins site, as well.

 

[gene]

The Flat Earth Society

While we are exploring unprovable theories, I thought people would find this enlightening

The Flat Earth Society

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

This is interesting

From Yahoo news...

By CHERYL WITTENAUER, Associated Press Writer
Sun Dec 25,10:53 AM ET



ST. LOUIS - At least 1,500 people attended Christmas Eve Mass presided by an excommunicated Roman Catholic priest, despite warnings from the archbishop that participating would be a mortal sin.

The Rev. Marek Bozek left his previous parish without his bishop's permission and was hired by St. Stanislaus Kostka Church earlier this month. As a result, Bozek and the six-member lay board were excommunicated last week by Archbishop Raymond Burke for committing an act of schism.

Burke said it would be a mortal sin for anyone to participate in a Mass celebrated by a priest who was excommunicated — the Catholic Church's most severe penalty. Burke, who couldn't stop the Mass, said it would be "valid" but "illicit."

Despite the warning, Catholics and non-Catholics from as far as Oregon and Washington, D.C., filled the church. An overflow crowd viewed the Mass by closed circuit TV in an adjoining parish center.

"I'm not worried about mortal sin," said worshipper Matt Morrison, 50. "I'll take a stand for what I believe is right."

Many wore large red buttons reading "Save St. Stanislaus," and said they wanted to offer solidarity to a parish they believe has been wronged.

When Bozek entered from the rear of the church, the congregation rose and greeted him with thunderous applause.

"It was magic," said JoAnne La Sala of St. Louis, a self-described lapsed Catholic. "You could feel the spirit of the people."

The penalty was the latest wrinkle in a long dispute over control of the parish's $9.5 million in assets.

The parish's property and finances have been managed by a lay board of directors for more than a century. Burke has sought to make the parish conform to the same legal structure as other parishes in the diocese. As a result, he removed both the parish's priests in 2004.

Bozek, a Pole who arrived in the U.S. five years ago, said he agonized about leaving his previous parish but wanted to help a church that had been deprived of the sacraments for 17 months.

To be Polish is to be Catholic, he said, and to be Catholic is to receive the sacraments.

"I will give them the sacrament of reconciliation, the Eucharist. I will visit the sick and bury the dead," he said. "I will laugh with those who are laughing and cry with those who are crying."

Bozek said he doesn't believe that receiving sacraments at St. Stanislaus, especially Holy Communion, puts a Catholic at risk of mortal sin, in which the soul could suffer eternal damnation.

The Rev. Charles Bouchard, moral theology professor and president of Aquinas Institute of Theology in St. Louis, said Burke was following canon law "to the letter" in excommunicating Bozek and the board.

But some argue that St. Stanislaus' more than century-old governing structure holds the same authority as church law and the bishop lacked merit for imposing excommunication, he said.

"Whether the parties should have reached this impasse in the first place," Bouchard said, "is another matter."

 

[mtrycrafts]

You need to visit more frequently
Yes, these 200+ posts is something here.

 

[furrycute]

Who knows, maybe in some strange higher dimensions of space/time, a round object such as earth is considered flat. But I have not had the fortune (or rather torture if you want the truth) of learning the intricacies of higher mathematics.

So any theoretical mathematicians on this board, speak up!

While we are exploring unprovable theories, I thought people would find this enlightening

The Flat Earth Society

 

[Sheep]

218 eh? still not 322. HA! (I'm going to tease you all until you surpass me, then I will mope )

SheepStar

 

[MacManNM]

Another Great Essay from Ben Stein!

Some fresh Meat for all you libs to chew on (oh yeah most of you guys are veggies, well think of it as soy substitute).

Another Great Essay from Ben Stein!




Herewith at this happy time of year, a few confessions from my beating heart:



I have no freaking clue who Nick and Jessica are. I see them on the cover of People and Us constantly when I am buying my dog biscuits and kitty litter. I often ask the checkers at the grocery stores. They never know who Nick and Jessica are either. Who are they? Will it change my life if I know who they are and why they have broken up? Why are they so important? I don't know who Lindsay Lohan is, either, and I do not care at all about Tom Cruise's wife.



Am I going to be called before a Senate committee and asked if I am a subversive? Maybe, but I just have no clue who Nick and Jessica are. Is this what it means to be no longer young. It's not so bad.



Next confession: I am a Jew, and every single one of my ancestors was Jewish. And it does not bother me even a little bit when people call those beautiful lit up, bejeweled trees Christmas trees. I don't feel threatened. I don't feel discriminated against. That's what they are:
Christmas trees. It doesn't bother me a bit when people say, "Merry Christmas" to me. I don't think they are slighting me or getting ready to put me in a ghetto. In fact, I kind of like it. It shows that we are all brothers and sisters celebrating this happy time of year. It doesn't bother me at all that there is a manger scene on display at a key intersection near my beach house in Malibu. If people want a creche, it's just as fine with me as is the Menorah a few hundred yards away.



I don't like getting pushed around for being a Jew and I don't think Christians like getting pushed around for being Christians. I think people who believe in God are sick and tired of getting pushed around, period. I have no idea where the concept came from that America is an explicitly atheist country. I can't find it in the Constitution and I don't like it being shoved down my throat.



Or maybe I can put it another way: where did the idea come from that we should worship Nick and Jessica and we aren't allowed to worship God as we understand Him?



I guess that's a sign that I'm getting old, too. But there are a lot of us who are wondering where Nick and Jessica came from and where the America we knew went to.

 

[BMXTRIX]

...I think people who believe in God are sick and tired of getting pushed around, period....

I think people are tired of having anything shoved down their throats and I would love to know when Christianity hasn't been pushed down people's throats.

I definitely think Ben has it backwards.

Ah forget it - let's go back to the Crusades - no proper medicine for anyone, but a good dose of prayer should be all you need. If you don't believe it won't matter if we pray or not because it will not help when you are being burned at the stake.

 

[Sheep]

I think people are tired of having anything shoved down their throats and I would love to know when Christianity hasn't been pushed down people's throats.

I definitely think Ben has it backwards.

Ah forget it - let's go back to the Crusades - no proper medicine for anyone, but a good dose of prayer should be all you need. If you don't believe it won't matter if we pray or not because it will not help when you are being burned at the stake.

Tuche

SheepStar

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

Prayers

You'll love this story.

As long as I can remember, anytime anyone in my family loses something, they'll say a prayer to St. Anthony, and it will show up. It doesn't matter if it would have appeared regardless of prayer or not, it just happends to show up shortly after this prayer is said. Drives me nuts (probably why it never works for me - no faith ).

About 12 years ago, my (late) grandfather was in Floriday vacationing at the beach. He's as blind as a bat without his glasses. He was in the ocean and was hit by a wave - lost his "coke bottle" glasses. They searched for hours for these things - he didn't bring another pair. Grandmother says a prayer to St. Anthony. They find them washed up about a half mile down the beach. (I think they also found a $20 bill along the way - bonus )

Today my folks are over visiting for the holidays. They bought my 3yr old boy a little motorized Thomas race set with four tiny engines and a small helicoptor that zips around in the air. My son takes the helicoptor off it's base and loses it. We searched high and low for this thing for almost two hours - wasn't anywhere. Mom says a prayer to St. Anthony. It shows up in the next 5 minutes.

My question is, why didn't she say the prayer right after we lost it?

 

[mtrycrafts]

You'll love this story.

As long as I can remember, anytime anyone in my family loses something, they'll say a prayer to St. Anthony, and it will show up. It doesn't matter if it would have appeared regardless of prayer or not, it just happends to show up shortly after this prayer is said. Drives me nuts (probably why it never works for me - no faith ).

About 12 years ago, my (late) grandfather was in Floriday vacationing at the beach. He's as blind as a bat without his glasses. He was in the ocean and was hit by a wave - lost his "coke bottle" glasses. They searched for hours for these things - he didn't bring another pair. Grandmother says a prayer to St. Anthony. They find them washed up about a half mile down the beach. (I think they also found a $20 bill along the way - bonus )

Today my folks are over visiting for the holidays. They bought my 3yr old boy a little motorized Thomas race set with four tiny engines and a small helicoptor that zips around in the air. My son takes the helicoptor off it's base and loses it. We searched high and low for this thing for almost two hours - wasn't anywhere. Mom says a prayer to St. Anthony. It shows up in the next 5 minutes.

My question is, why didn't she say the prayer right after we lost it?

I wonder how many times they prayed and nothing showed up? If this is even remembered or conveniently forgotten

 

[krabapple]

That's micro-evolution and it's easily observed... turning a bird into a lizard, however is quite a different thing and lacks any proof. There isn't a lack of fossil evidence, mind you - in fact we have millions of fossils... It's just that none of them are transitional forms.

While it may seem to "make sense" to people that macroevolution occurred - lack of evidence, and a revelation in the study of molecular biology have made evolution a statistical impossibility. There are too many interdependent things involved (i.e. one thing needs another simultaneous process in order to occur - it cannot happen gradually over time).

The truth is that there is more science behind the study of intelligent design than evlution simply because eveolutionist scientists are very often taking what few observable facts they have and bending them to fit their theory instead of following the scientific method and studying the wealth available data "as is".

Note - this has nothing to do with "age of the earth" discussions.

I consider myself welel studied in the subject (both sides) and it is amazing how many people take it at face value because the schools have been pushing it now for over 20 years - even though the latest science now clearly says evolution is impossible. The problem is that "intelligent design" is automatically ruled out as a "religious" study and so kids are left with misleading and bad information.

Utter, complete nonsense. I'm a biologist. As such I do try keep up with these things. Of course, I see evidence of evolution every day in the course of my work. I can say that the patterns of relatedness of genomes and protein sequences I observe every day make *no sense* except in the framework of evolution. And saying that there's no evidence for macroevolution because we haven't observed it directly -- even though it's a process not measured in human time scales -- is like saying there's no evidence for mountain formation through plate tectonic action, because we've never observed a mountain range forming before our very eyes in our lifetimes. Oddly enough, though, we do see 'microformation' whenever an earthquake pushes up some ground. As for 'evolution is impossible' I assure you, the latest science says ABSOLUTELY NOTHING OF THE SORT. The latest science, again and again, *supports* the idea of common ancestry of life. If you doubt this, peruse Nature and Science magazines for the last year or so, and tell me what evidence you find that evolution is 'impossible'.

You need to become more well-studied on the *science*...not the dire crap put out by the Discovery Institute. Start with the talkorigins.org site. Or read Futuyma's textbook on evolution. And then read Judge Jones's decision, where he excellently lays out the indisputably (Christian) *religious* ancestry of the Intelligent Design movement.

Their sort of propaganda makes me angry as a scientist. Evolution is a *slam dunk* scientifically at this late date. The evidence is in. It's overwhelming. Yet, almost a century and a half after 'On the Origin of Species', ignorant Americans are still having a hard time coming to terms with it because they imagine it somehow means they can't believe in God (funny, that doesn't stop Francis Collins, who runs the Human Genome Project; he's a devout Christian). It's a disgraceful state of affairs -- akin to the fact that huge numbers of Americans also believe in astrology and ghosts, but much more pernicious, since it has political overtones now. And I really have to suspect the audio reviews of someone so susceptible to such pseudoscientific propaganda.

 

[krabapple]

That's micro-evolution and it's easily observed... turning a bird into a lizard, however is quite a different thing and lacks any proof. There isn't a lack of fossil evidence, mind you - in fact we have millions of fossils... It's just that none of them are transitional forms.

While it may seem to "make sense" to people that macroevolution occurred - lack of evidence, and a revelation in the study of molecular biology have made evolution a statistical impossibility. There are too many interdependent things involved (i.e. one thing needs another simultaneous process in order to occur - it cannot happen gradually over time).

The truth is that there is more science behind the study of intelligent design than evlution simply because eveolutionist scientists are very often taking what few observable facts they have and bending them to fit their theory instead of following the scientific method and studying the wealth available data "as is".

Note - this has nothing to do with "age of the earth" discussions.

I consider myself welel studied in the subject (both sides) and it is amazing how many people take it at face value because the schools have been pushing it now for over 20 years - even though the latest science now clearly says evolution is impossible. The problem is that "intelligent design" is automatically ruled out as a "religious" study and so kids are left with misleading and bad information.

Utter, complete nonsense. I'm a biologist. As such I do try keep up with these things. Of course, I see evidence of evolution every day in the course of my work. I can say that the patterns of relatedness of genomes and protein sequences I observe every day make *no sense* except in the framework of evolution. And saying that there's no evidence for macroevolution because we haven't observed it directly -- even though it's a process not measured in human time scales -- is like saying there's no evidence for mountain formation through plate tectonic action, because we've never observed a mountain range forming before our very eyes in our lifetimes. Oddly enough, though, we do see 'microformation' whenever an earthquake pushes up some ground. As for 'evolution is impossible' I assure you, the latest science says ABSOLUTELY NOTHING OF THE SORT. The latest science, again and again, *supports* the idea of common ancestry of life. If you doubt this, peruse Nature and Science magazines for the last year or so, and tell me what evidence you find that evolution is 'impossible'.

You need to become more well-studied on the *science*...not the dire crap put out by the Discovery Institute. Start with the talkorigins.org site. Or read Futuyma's textbook on evolution. And then read Judge Jones's decision, where he excellently lays out the indisputably (Christian) *religious* ancestry of the Intelligent Design movement.

Their sort of propaganda makes me angry as a scientist. Evolution is a *slam dunk* scientifically at this late date. The evidence is in. It's overwhelming. Yet, almost a century and a half after 'On the Origin of Species', ignorant Americans are still having a hard time coming to terms with it because they imagine it somehow means they can't believe in God (funny, that doesn't stop Francis Collins, who runs the Human Genome Project; he's a devout Christian). It's a disgraceful state of affairs -- akin to the fact that huge numbers of Americans also believe in astrology and ghosts, but much more pernicious, since it has political overtones now. And I really have to suspect the audio reviews of someone so susceptible to such pseudoscientific propaganda.