Intelligent Design ruling

[MacManNM]

Why is this such a big deal? I mean on one hand this country was founded on god. On the other, religion shouldn't be taught in public schools. As a democratic society we should just vote on it. That is why all of these libs are trying to legislate from the bench, they can't win elections. All of these people screaming bloody murder over all of these BS issues are destroying this country. Too much individualism, not enough cohesiveness as a collective. No wonder the terrorists think they can win, we are totally polarized over stupid issues.

 

[Shadow_Ferret]

It may help to make a fundamental statement as to what science and religion are (or aren't). Science is the study of how. Religion is the study of why. Sure they can coexist...even within one's sense of the order of things. But don't attempt to mask one as the other, as with Creationism or Intelligent Design.

I completely disagree with this. Religion isn't a study of anything except archaic mythologies that attempt to keep the common man ignorant and beholden to the church. The more man is compelled to believe in a God or gods and the legend of creationism, the richer and more powerful the church stays.

 

[jaxvon]

I mean on one hand this country was founded on god.

What are you getting at with this? While it's true that many of the founders were devout Christians, I don't see tons of religious references in the documents that officially founded this nation. And while I agree that we need to make bigger deals out of "real" issues that are much more pertinent, I also think that it's important we don't become a theistic state. I feel that there is already too much religion governing decisions in our government, as well as too many laws that are based in religion (EG Blue Laws prohibiting drinking on Sunday till afternoon).

 

[gene]

Proof About Transitional Fossils

Here is a link that sites many examples of proof we have of transitional fossil records.

Evolution & Transitional Fossils

Here is another. Sorry to cloud the issue with facts:

29+ Evidences for Evolution

 

[BMXTRIX]

This country was most definitely NOT founded on god. It was founded by humans and at the time there were more aetheists (percentage wise) living in the USA then, as opposed to today.

The founding fathers, worked hard to avoid verbage that portrayed any specific god or religion - our Creator(s) are our own choosing. I believe that the Bible and most religions have a sense of control at their core that is the most basic of all. "Do to others as you want done to you"

The upbringing of those as Christians did not necessitate the forcing of religion upon the constitution. It drew from their upbringing, religious and personal, morals and wisdom and most of all vision. A vision of a nation that could grow and change and needed to be able to adapt.

In SCIENCE classes, science founded on science should be taught. Creationism is not founded on scientific priniciples, which excludes it from that particular venue in public schools. Though, I'm not sure, with how much IS missing from the data, how many details of evolution can be taught either.

Public schools have the responsibility to teach from a non religious point of view. This may get a bit skewed at times, but certainly, when my son is required to attend a school that my taxes pay for, I don't want any religious concepts taught as 'fact'. In a philosophy class? Certainly! Have those open discussions and question, grow, and learn.

But, religion is taught as doctrine. It is made up of absolutes. Learning is rarely full of absolutes. Physicists need to constantly reevaluate theories, and even 'laws' based upon new evidence that is presented. A teacher, teaching facts, and leaving the questions unaswered, but direction as supported, is good and healthy. Those questions that are unanswered may very well be religios in their answers. But, it is not known - so shouldn't be taught at the public school level.

Colleges? Private schools? Most definitely! But, when my son sits between a Hindu and a Buddist - what religion is the school supposed to be forcing upon him?

Two seriously poor decisions by Congress were the changing of the Pledge of Allegiance to include the words "under God" and to make "In God We Trust" one of our mottos - to include on all currency. The original words were much more honest to what the founding fathers intended. One nation, indivisible. From many - one. E Pluribus Unum.

 

[TICA]

Both Doctrines Tought? Good!

I completely agree. Back in my old catholic and protestant school days, we were tought both doctrines, and it makes sense. God has the purpose of creating and making things better and adapt, so they are able to survive, After all, since we did sin, why should changes occurr quickly???

Very intersting, and a very time consuming thread!

 

[miklorsmith]

More important than the nature of the universe? Like what? Stereo gear?

 

[TICA]

Reply

Sounds good, stero gear sounds good! Or anything else. How about forum contest, it is the holiday season. How about taxes, they're very real and coming soon, and one of the few things that don't change much over the years.

 

[furrycute]

We have islamic fundamentalist countries. Just for the sake of balance, I think we should turn this country into a Christian fundamentalist nation. Then every brat in those damned public schools will finally learn some religious values, and the we will finally have enough foot soldiers signing up for volunteer military duties overseas.

 

[gene]

I think we should turn this country into a Christian fundamentalist nation. Then the bible will be taught to every brat in those damned public schools.

Actually with the way most kids in public schools are behaving today, they could use a little Fear of God drilled in them

 

[Audioholics]

Thanks to everyone for keeping this thread civil... (and thus, open, haha).

 

[Tomorrow]

Actually with the way most kids in public schools are behaving today, they could use a little Fear of God drilled in them

Perhaps it's the way the schools are behaving today that's the problem.

(Whoops, needs a different thread.)

 

[MacManNM]

What are you getting at with this? While it's true that many of the founders were devout Christians, I don't see tons of religious references in the documents that officially founded this nation. And while I agree that we need to make bigger deals out of "real" issues that are much more pertinent, I also think that it's important we don't become a theistic state. I feel that there is already too much religion governing decisions in our government, as well as too many laws that are based in religion (EG Blue Laws prohibiting drinking on Sunday till afternoon).

Take a look at the Dollar bill.

All of the basic laws are based on religion. The 10 commandments are the basis for our modern government. This is where the moral compass comes from.

 

[MacManNM]

This country was most definitely NOT founded on god. It was founded by humans and at the time there were more aetheists (percentage wise) living in the USA then, as opposed to today.

The founding fathers, worked hard to avoid verbage that portrayed any specific god or religion - our Creator(s) are our own choosing. I believe that the Bible and most religions have a sense of control at their core that is the most basic of all. "Do to others as you want done to you"

The upbringing of those as Christians did not necessitate the forcing of religion upon the constitution. It drew from their upbringing, religious and personal, morals and wisdom and most of all vision. A vision of a nation that could grow and change and needed to be able to adapt.

In SCIENCE classes, science founded on science should be taught. Creationism is not founded on scientific priniciples, which excludes it from that particular venue in public schools. Though, I'm not sure, with how much IS missing from the data, how many details of evolution can be taught either.

Public schools have the responsibility to teach from a non religious point of view. This may get a bit skewed at times, but certainly, when my son is required to attend a school that my taxes pay for, I don't want any religious concepts taught as 'fact'. In a philosophy class? Certainly! Have those open discussions and question, grow, and learn.

But, religion is taught as doctrine. It is made up of absolutes. Learning is rarely full of absolutes. Physicists need to constantly reevaluate theories, and even 'laws' based upon new evidence that is presented. A teacher, teaching facts, and leaving the questions unaswered, but direction as supported, is good and healthy. Those questions that are unanswered may very well be religios in their answers. But, it is not known - so shouldn't be taught at the public school level.

Colleges? Private schools? Most definitely! But, when my son sits between a Hindu and a Buddist - what religion is the school supposed to be forcing upon him?

Two seriously poor decisions by Congress were the changing of the Pledge of Allegiance to include the words "under God" and to make "In God We Trust" one of our mottos - to include on all currency. The original words were much more honest to what the founding fathers intended. One nation, indivisible. From many - one. E Pluribus Unum.

See previous post. I never said it was founded by god.

 

[furrycute]

The 10 commandments are the basis for our modern government. This is where the moral compass comes from.

The Big Man's (George's) moral compass. What an oxymoron.

 

[jaxvon]

Take a look at the Dollar bill.

All of the basic laws are based on religion. The 10 commandments are the basis for our modern government. This is where the moral compass comes from.

The "In God We Trust" was first proposed in the 1860s and ended up on a few coins. It wasn't until 1955 under the Eisenhower administration that it was made a law that "In God We Trust" was to be printed on all of our money. Additionally, in 1954, the same administration added the "Under God" to the Pledge of Allegiance.

As far as the laws go, many of the premises behind our government are based on Locke's Second Treatise of Government, not the Bible. The idea that killing is wrong is definitely in the Bible, but is generally accepted as a universal human value, something found in basically every culture, not just Christian-influenced Western ones.

 

[Shadow_Ferret]

I think "In God We Trust" was added during the commie-frightened 50s to thwart those godless commies from taking over our money.

 

[MacManNM]

The "In God We Trust" was first proposed in the 1860s and ended up on a few coins. It wasn't until 1955 under the Eisenhower administration that it was made a law that "In God We Trust" was to be printed on all of our money. Additionally, in 1954, the same administration added the "Under God" to the Pledge of Allegiance.

As far as the laws go, many of the premises behind our government are based on Locke's Second Treatise of Government, not the Bible. The idea that killing is wrong is definitely in the Bible, but is generally accepted as a universal human value, something found in basically every culture, not just Christian-influenced Western ones.

The bible is the single most influential book ever written. You actually think Locke's Second Treatise of Government, is an original thought? Of course not, not just the 10 commandments, I am speaking of all religion. All government is derived from religion. After all religion was the first government.

Religion and government are not as seperate as everyone would like to think.

EDIT:
For all of you that don’t know the true history of religion, here it is in a nutshell:

One-day way early in time there was chaos, cavemen were like animals. Then something happened, an eclipse or a huge earthquake. One of the smarter cavemen saw an opportunity to organize and create a society. So he told all the other cavemen that the eclipse or whatever happened because the creator was angry, and that he had the ability to talk to the creator. And that they needed to live under the rules of the creator (which he cleverly crafted), and that they must worship the creator. The rest of the cavemen followed this, they organized, and their lives got better. Hence the creation of religion and government together.

 

[gene]

I forwarded this thread to Dr. Thomas D. Schneider for his response. He has given me permission to post excerpts.

Regarding no evidence for evolution, look at the bottom of my page on ev and you will find links to thousands of papers.

http://www.lecb.ncifcrf.gov/~toms/papers/ev/

The Open Scientic Literature on Evolution
And The Scientic Literature on Evolution

Regarding "the latest science now clearly says evolution is impossible" ...

This is completely misinformed. The latest science is happening in my lab (and thousands of others) and it ALL is supporting evolutionary theory!

The whole "intelligent design" movement is collapsing because when people look at the actual evidence and models such as Ev, they can see that Darwin's idea is not only simple (!) but it also fits the data.
People who say that scientists are giving up on evolution simply are either ignorant of what is going on in science or lying.

I invite your readers to explore the Ev model and to run the java version of the program. Please study it carefully before asking questions.

You may post parts as you will.

Regards,

Tom

Dr. Thomas D. Schneider
National Institutes of Health
National Cancer Institute
Center for Cancer Research Nanobiology Program
Molecular Information Theory Group
Frederick, Maryland 21702-1201
toms@ncifcrf.gov
permanent email: toms@alum.mit.edu (use only if first address fails)
http://www.ccrnp.ncifcrf.gov/~toms/

 

[Audioholics]

I think "In God We Trust" was added during the commie-frightened 50s to thwart those godless commies from taking over our money.

Lol. That must be why it's green instead of red.

Some more food for thought (I'm not big on gov't talk - I think that just about all of our leaders are equally spend-happy and special-interest bought, haha)...

While the generally accepted age of the earth is 4.5 billion years, oxygen has really only been in quantity in the atmosphere for around 2.2 billion and the ozone layer (pretty much required for all "life" as we know it) has been around for only 1 billion years or so. I'm sure there is some debate on these numbers but they should be in the ballpark. It truncates the amount of time needed for all life to have evolved and is significant in the discussion.