Imax

[hjustin]

Big red flag to me without some sort of explanation. The odds of someone's room not needing some sort of EQ, especially in the bass region, is highly unlikely. Unless they use some sort of pro setup.

He said that most subs they sell have their own EQ so there was no need for it on the receiver.

He showed me what they typically do on a Sony ES1800 that he was trying really hard to sell me. It looked pretty basic...just setting speaker distances, crossover, levels. All the stuff that Audyssey does more or less automatically. There was a limited EQ and he raised the highs on the center channel. The room was treated and the speaker were GoldenEar. I didn't think it sounded any better than my stuff at home.

When I didn't express much interest in the 1800, he offered my an ES3700 for the same price ($700) or an ES5700 for $1000. I left with nothing because I actually went in their to buy a Denon 2113. They were out of stock.

 

[fuzz092888]

I used this thread as my guide since I have the Paradigm ADPs.

A Guide to Bipolar, Dipolar, & Direct-Radiating Monopole Surround Speakers (PART I) - Blu-ray Forum

I'm not saying the positioning is wrong, I'm saying when you attach them to a receiver that does more than 5.1, then you should be attaching them to the spots that say either surround or side surround. You have them labeled as LR and RR, which I assume stands for left rear and right rear. Technically those aren't in a rear surround position, which is usually a few feet behind the listening position.

Hopefully this image shows you the difference between the two and it makes sense. Cheers.

 

[fuzz092888]

He said that most subs they sell have their own EQ so there was no need for it on the receiver.

He showed me what they typically do on a Sony ES1800 that he was trying really hard to sell me. It looked pretty basic...just setting speaker distances, crossover, levels. All the stuff that Audyssey does more or less automatically. There was a limited EQ and he raised the highs on the center channel. The room was treated and the speaker were GoldenEar. I didn't think it sounded any better than my stuff at home.

When I didn't express much interest in the 1800, he offered my an ES3700 for the same price ($700) or an ES5700 for $1000. I left with nothing because I actually went in their to buy a Denon 2113. They were out of stock.

Definitely stay away from Sony. He left out that EQing and integrating multiple subs isn't the same as EQing one at a time with the built in EQ. What models were the subs? Unless you're paying thousands for these subs I'd bet dollars to donuts that the EQ wouldn't be as good as the subEQ from Audyssey.

XT32 also does more than just set distances and levels. If he doesn't know that then you shouldn't be listening to him. If he blatantly ignored that to make a sale, you should running in the opposite direction

 

[hjustin]

I'd rather see you with this system

http://www.onecall.com/klipsch-rf-82-ii-system-black-5-channel-home-theater-speaker-system

Just looking at the sensitivity on the RF-82 towers....98db@2.83V/1m. The literature for my Paradigm Monitor 7s lists sensitivity at 92db (room) and 89db (anechoic). I doubt these numbers are apples to apples but if they were, what kind of impact would that increase in sensitivity have on my listening experience?

 

[hjustin]

Definitely stay away from Sony. He left out that EQing and integrating multiple subs isn't the same as EQing one at a time with the built in EQ. What models were the subs? Unless you're paying thousands for these subs I'd bet dollars to donuts that the EQ wouldn't be as good as the subEQ from Audyssey.

XT32 also does more than just set distances and levels. If he doesn't know that then you shouldn't be listening to him. If he blatantly ignored that to make a sale, you should running in the opposite direction

Well he also told me to disregard the Internet forums because the so-called experts there really don't know anything.

But you know, maybe that's how they do their installs and their customers are happy with their results. But they're accustomed to dealing with people who just want a complete solution installed and don't care about the details. If it's big and loud, that's good enough. I guess I'm slightly more discerning. He probably dreads seeing me come through the door. Not sure I'm going back anyway--the primary benefit of going there in the first place is for demonstration purposes. Every time I go in there I basically get told that all my Internet research is wrong and that I need to buy what thinks I should buy. But then none of their demo rooms sound that good. The only room that sounds better than what I have at home is running an Episode 5.1 system, powered by a Denon 1613 that has had no calibration.

 

[hjustin]

I'm not saying the positioning is wrong, I'm saying when you attach them to a receiver that does more than 5.1, then you should be attaching them to the spots that say either surround or side surround. You have them labeled as LR and RR, which I assume stands for left rear and right rear. Technically those aren't in a rear surround position, which is usually a few feet behind the listening position.

Hopefully this image shows you the difference between the two and it makes sense. Cheers.

I'm strictly 5.1 at this point. I didn't think my room would be a good fit for 7.1.

 

[fuzz092888]

Just looking at the sensitivity on the RF-82 towers....98db@2.83V/1m. The literature for my Paradigm Monitor 7s lists sensitivity at 92db (room) and 89db (anechoic). I doubt these numbers are apples to apples but if they were, what kind of impact would that increase in sensitivity have on my listening experience?

So we'll use the anechoic sensitivity. So at 14 feet 89db vs 98db not accounting for room gain with 1 watt of power means you'll have an approximate difference of 9db (79db vs 88 db).

In order to get the monitor's to the same level you'd need 256 watts. In other words, in order to drive the monitors to reference levels you'd need kilowatt power, but the point would be moot since the monitors would run into thermal compression long before you got there.

With room gain you'd get closer but would still never get close. Remember, every db increase and you have to double the power so sensitivity is really important. The real numbers would be higher with room gain (as much as 3db perhaps), but the difference is still huge and if you don't want to spend more money on external amps then high sensitivity is a must have.

 

[fuzz092888]

Well he also told me to disregard the Internet forums because the so-called experts there really don't know anything.

But you know, maybe that's how they do their installs and their customers are happy with their results. But they're accustomed to dealing with people who just want a complete solution installed and don't care about the details. If it's big and loud, that's good enough. I guess I'm slightly more discerning. He probably dreads seeing me come through the door. Not sure I'm going back anyway--the primary benefit of going there in the first place is for demonstration purposes. Every time I go in there I basically get told that all my Internet research is wrong and that I need to buy what thinks I should buy. But then none of their demo rooms sound that good. The only room that sounds better than what I have at home is running an Episode 5.1 system, powered by a Denon 1613 that has had no calibration.

I have no words for this person

I'm strictly 5.1 at this point. I didn't think my room would be a good fit for 7.1.

You could still do 7.1 with front heights or wides depending on what receiver you get. You may end up really liking how those sound. I know I'm itiching to add heights. My room is tiny, but I'm still running 7 channels currently and it sounds awesome.

It's kinda like the 6 flags ad, more flags more fun. More channels more fun

Especially when it comes to movies.

 

[Steve81]

Just looking at the sensitivity on the RF-82 towers....98db@2.83V/1m. The literature for my Paradigm Monitor 7s lists sensitivity at 92db (room) and 89db (anechoic). I doubt these numbers are apples to apples but if they were, what kind of impact would that increase in sensitivity have on my listening experience?

The RF-82's numbers will be roughly comparable to the Paradigm's in room figures. In reading on the Klipsch forum, I've heard rumors that Klipsch takes the measured sensitivity from their anechoic chamber and adds 4dB to that to come up with their in room figure. From what I've seen (with a few exceptions), it does line up fairly well with what you'd expect third parties to report as quasi-anechoic sensitivity.

In any case, in terms of differences in the listening experience, the big difference will be in terms of compression. As the volume levels go up and approach reference level, a pair of big Klipsch floorstanders are going to be able to hit the requested levels with minimal compression. A pair of Paradigm Atoms for example? Not so much. You'd expect Monitor 7s to do a little better than a pair of Atoms, but there are still factors working against it, ie heat in the voice coil, which will cause it to reach its limits before a comparable speaker that is more sensitive.

 

[fuzz092888]

The RF-82's numbers will be roughly comparable to the Paradigm's in room figures. In reading on the Klipsch forum, I've heard rumors that Klipsch takes the measured sensitivity from their anechoic chamber and adds 4dB to that to come up with their in room figure. From what I've seen (with a few exceptions), it does line up fairly well with what you'd expect third parties to report as quasi-anechoic sensitivity.

In any case, in terms of differences in the listening experience, the big difference will be in terms of compression. As the volume levels go up and approach reference level, a pair of big Klipsch floorstanders are going to be able to hit the requested levels with minimal compression. A pair of Paradigm Atoms? Not so much.

Interesting, I didn't know that about the klipsch ratings. However wouldn't that mean that even with the 4db add, they would still have a 5db advantage?

Still a huge difference methinks

So about 16 watts vs 1 watt at 14 feet to hit 84db not accounting for room gain.

 

[hjustin]

I had planned to go today and buy a Denon AVR-2113 for $650.

Craigslist is pretty much a wasteland except for an Onkyo TX-SR605 (missing the calibration microphone) for $120.

I'm going to have double my receiver budget to get XT32 with SubEQ. Not outside the realm of possibility, but in the meantime I hate throwing away $120 on an older, used Onkyo.

Man, first-world problems are a *****, aren't they?

 

[hjustin]

The RF-82's numbers will be roughly comparable to the Paradigm's in room figures. In reading on the Klipsch forum, I've heard rumors that Klipsch takes the measured sensitivity from their anechoic chamber and adds 4dB to that to come up with their in room figure. From what I've seen (with a few exceptions), it does line up fairly well with what you'd expect third parties to report as quasi-anechoic sensitivity.

In any case, in terms of differences in the listening experience, the big difference will be in terms of compression. As the volume levels go up and approach reference level, a pair of big Klipsch floorstanders are going to be able to hit the requested levels with minimal compression. A pair of Paradigm Atoms for example? Not so much. You'd expect Monitor 7s to do a little better than a pair of Atoms, but there are still factors working against it, ie heat in the voice coil, which will cause it to reach its limits before a comparable speaker that is more sensitive.

I also have a pair of Monitor 3s on stands but their in-room sensitivity drops to 89dB.

I'm will very happily go through the hassle of selling all my Paradigms and moving to Klipsch (or something else) if it will take me to the next level. I just have to hope that the results will be worth the effort.

 

[Steve81]

Interesting, I didn't know that about the klipsch ratings. However wouldn't that mean that even with the 4db add, they would still have a 5db advantage?

Here's a couple quick examples:
Klipsch Reference RB-75 HT Labs Measures | Home Theater

RB-75 measured 92.5dB, rated 97; RC-7, measured 94dB rated 98dB; RS-7 measured 92dB rated 98dB.

Klipsch RB-15 loudspeaker Measurements | Stereophile.com

RB-15 measured 90dB, rated 93dB.

Still a huge difference methinks

So about 16 watts vs 1 watt at 14 feet to hit 84db not accounting for room gain.

Should be a factor of 4 for a 6dB difference. In any case, it is a big difference at higher volume levels considering the excess power is going to be converted to waste heat which leads to things like thermal compression. 1 watt vs 4? Not a big deal. 100 watts vs 400? That's a big deal.

 

[Steve81]

I also have a pair of Monitor 3s on stands but their in-room sensitivity drops to 89dB.

I'm will very happily go through the hassle of selling all my Paradigms and moving to Klipsch (or something else) if it will take me to the next level. I just have to hope that the results will be worth the effort.

Well I'd advise not to hope; buy equipment from somewhere that has a good return policy and try out some stuff in your own room versus what you've got now. If it doesn't do much for you, then return it and save your cash.

 

[hjustin]

What are people with two subwoofers and a receiver that does not have SubEQ doing setup-wise?

 

[FirstReflection]

I don't have any problem with the Klipsch recommendation, per se. But I would strongly advise that you audition them before committing to owning them. Klipsch isn't for everybody. Some folks love them. Some folks don't. They definitely have their own characteristic sound. They are not what I would call "transparent" or "neutral" speakers. They definitely add a bit of their own "flavor" to the sound. That's neither "good" nor "bad" in any sort of absolute sense. Unlike video, there are no industry-wide standards for audio, so it does ultimately come down to taste

Klipsch is a good example of a higher efficiency speaker though, and they are widely available, so that makes them a good candidate for auditioning. It can be tough to find speakers that are actually on display, and that you can actually hear before buying them and bringing them home these days!

I use multiple subs, and I run them all in mono. Doing so means you have to adjust the phase manually to get good results, and you need to have your own measurement equipment in order to confirm that your adjustments are getting the response to where you want it to be! Audyssey MultEQ XT32 with SubEQ HT takes care of that for you, so that's where it's value really lies. Rather than having to manually measure with your own mic, microphone pre-amp, computer and measurement software, and relying on trial and error and manual phase adjustments, you can just plug in the Audyssey mic and let it do its thing automatically. Quite the convenience!

But if dollars matter more to you than time, you can forego the more expensive AV Receivers that include SubEQ HT, and use the money you save to buy the necessary measurement equipment instead. Given that you can grab an Onkyo TX-NR1010 for under $1200 though, there's not as much reason to go looking for cost savings.

You could still get MultEQ XT32 with the Onkyo TX-NR818 for $800 . A decent measurement rig will set you back about $200. More if you want a higher quality microphone.

Or you could step down to an AV Receiver with Audyssey MultEQ XT, which could save you a lot of money, but won't be as precise in its EQ measurements and adjustments. Truthfully, I'm very impressed with MultEQ XT32, so I think it's worth it

There's also the Denon AVR-4311 for $1250 . So that and the TX-NR1010 are pretty much your least expensive options for getting SubEQ HT and making the whole process automatic and saving you lots of time and headaches.

I happen to enjoy the THX listening modes, so I lean towards the Onkyo units in this case. But that's just me. And THX certification certainly isn't a big enough reason to choose one AV Receiver over another. But if you like the THX listening modes, like I do, then that's as good a reason as any to help you decide

 

[fuzz092888]

I had planned to go today and buy a Denon AVR-2113 for $650.

Craigslist is pretty much a wasteland except for an Onkyo TX-SR605 (missing the calibration microphone) for $120.

I'm going to have double my receiver budget to get XT32 with SubEQ. Not outside the realm of possibility, but in the meantime I hate throwing away $120 on an older, used Onkyo.

Man, first-world problems are a *****, aren't they?

Hmm, do you have a setup on another room that could benefit from a good receiver? Possibly want to have a setup in another room(s) where a receiver could come in handy? I'd hate to do something like that as well. Hopefully you can either reuse it or sell it or return it.

I also have a pair of Monitor 3s on stands but their in-room sensitivity drops to 89dB.

I'm will very happily go through the hassle of selling all my Paradigms and moving to Klipsch (or something else) if it will take me to the next level. I just have to hope that the results will be worth the effort.

It all depends on what you want out of your system. Go do more auditioning with klipsch and see if they deliver the sound you want. If you are chasing the IMAX experience then Klipsch will definitely help you get there without breaking the bank.

Here's a couple quick examples:
Klipsch Reference RB-75 HT Labs Measures | Home Theater

RB-75 measured 92.5dB, rated 97; RC-7, measured 94dB rated 98dB; RS-7 measured 92dB rated 98dB.

Klipsch RB-15 loudspeaker Measurements | Stereophile.com

RB-15 measured 90dB, rated 93dB.



Should be a factor of 4 for a 6dB difference. In any case, it is a big difference at higher volume levels considering the excess power is going to be converted to waste heat which leads to things like thermal compression. 1 watt vs 4? Not a big deal. 100 watts vs 400? That's a big deal.

Interesting. Thanks Steve.

Well I'd advise not to hope; buy equipment from somewhere that has a good return policy and try out some stuff in your own room versus what you've got now. If it doesn't do much for you, then return it and save your cash.

Yea what he said

What are people with two subwoofers and a receiver that does not have SubEQ doing setup-wise?

Level matching only, buying an after market product, using a pro solution like the DEQ2496, or something like that.

 

[fuzz092888]

Klipsch is a good example of a higher efficiency speaker though, and they are widely available, so that makes them a good candidate for auditioning. It can be tough to find speakers that are actually on display, and that you can actually hear before buying them and bringing them home these days!

I agree. Besides, there aren't a whole lot of options on a lower budget that can go big and loud without the thermal stuff dragging them down. The trade off is that the horns sound harsh and fatiguing to some.

I use multiple subs, and I run them all in mono. Doing so means you have to adjust the phase manually to get good results, and you need to have your own measurement equipment in order to confirm that your adjustments are getting the response to where you want it to be! Audyssey MultEQ XT32 with SubEQ HT takes care of that for you, so that's where it's value really lies. Rather than having to manually measure with your own mic, microphone pre-amp, computer and measurement software, and relying on trial and error and manual phase adjustments, you can just plug in the Audyssey mic and let it do its thing automatically. Quite the convenience!

Crossover, polarity, time aligning (delay), level, amongst other features. Granted it doesn't do everything perfectly, but it sure does a lot pretty darn well.

I happen to enjoy the THX listening modes, so I lean towards the Onkyo units in this case. But that's just me. And THX certification certainly isn't a big enough reason to choose one AV Receiver over another. But if you like the THX listening modes, like I do, then that's as good a reason as any to help you decide

Me too. I use the THX Ultra2 settings for most things with my Onkyo 3009.

 

[hjustin]

So much good information. I really appreciate everyone's input.

Since I'm doing this in phases, I need to figure out the best path forward.

1. Receiver. I don't have one. Wife not happy. Need something today, but limited to Best Buy, Magnolia, and one furniture/home theater store. All open until 6PM. I have $200 in pocket from the sale of my 591. Need to find something that will get me by until I can upgrade, something that I will use in my office with all these surplus Paradigms in the future.

2. Subwoofers. I already have a buyer for the PS-1000 when I replace it. I only paid $50 for it. A guy locally may be selling his pair of Outlaw LFM-1 EX. Also found a Rythmik FV15HP for $950, but at that price I will likely only ever be able to get one subwoofer.

3. Replace speakers. Big project but will start by auditioning Klipsch.

4. Room treatments/arrange furniture, etc.

It seems like addressing my subwoofer situation would have the most impact, even without a receiver with XT32.

 

[fuzz092888]

So much good information. I really appreciate everyone's input.

Since I'm doing this in phases, I need to figure out the best path forward.

Good idea

1. Receiver. I don't have one. Wife not happy. Need something today, but limited to Best Buy, Magnolia, and one furniture/home theater store. All open until 6PM. I have $200 in pocket from the sale of my 591. Need to find something that will get me by until I can upgrade, something that I will use in my office with all these surplus Paradigms in the future.

Sounds like a plan. Dunno what else to say

2. Subwoofers. I already have a buyer for the PS-1000 when I replace it. I only paid $50 for it. A guy locally may be selling his pair of Outlaw LFM-1 EX. Also found a Rythmik FV15HP for $950, but at that price I will likely only ever be able to get one subwoofer.

Dual Outlaw EX's would be awesome. I have one and it's pretty impressive, especially for the price. Plus the variable tuning is a cool feature. I would go with two of these because you'll be able to get a much more even bass response than with only one, not that the FV15HP isn't a great subwoofer. I'd just go with dual's and have no problem recommending the Outlaws since I have and love it.

3. Replace speakers. Big project but will start by auditioning Klipsch.

Yea, go audition as many speakers as you can. Come back with impressions and questions. I'd audition the Klipsch more than once. Bring stuff to listen with like CD's and DVD's. Obviously not the same as your own room, but you can start to get a feel of what they sound like on material you are familiar with. Also try to carve out some time to spend at least an hour with them so you can get an idea about whether or not you find them fatiguing.

4. Room treatments/arrange furniture, etc.

Long ways away at this point don't sweat it