H

hjustin

Audioholic
Saw Skyfall tonight in IMAX. The sound was absolutely stunning. I get that the scale of the equipment involved in creating that sound is many, many orders of magnitude greater than what most of us have in our home theaters, but I sure wish I could get closer. Loud but clear, smooth and effortless with sense of space that is simply awesome.

We watched Quantum of Solace at home last night and it was rather flat and strained by comparison. I really need to dig in and figure what's missing to improve the sound at home. More power? Better speaker placement? Room correction? Better speakers?

My Denon AVR-591 is gone. I guess I can start with a solid receiver but I wonder if I really need separate amps to get what I'm after. I spent several hours today shopping and came home with nothing. I walked away from a clearance Denon 2112 and now it's gone. I had a guy try very hard to sell me one of three Sony ES recievers (1800, 3700, 5700). I talked to a guy at Magnolia who insisted I choose a receiver based on features I already have in my Apple TV.

More research....
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
Oh you can get that kind of audio quality at home. You can improve upon it, even. It's not cheap. But it doesn't have to be crazy expensive either.

But getting there means actually making audio a priority in your room. For so many people, audio is an afterthought, or it's severely compromised in favor of aesthetics or very low cost. You can't expect IMAX-quality sound from tiny or invisible speakers. You can't get that kind of deep, tactile bass from a $200 sub. It takes what it takes. But if you're willing to make audio a priority, you can definitely equal and surpass what you heard in the theater!

It does start with the room itself. You need to give attention to your room's acoustics and to your seating position within the room. So many people have their couch pushed right back against the wall. That's no good. You wind up with very strong reflections that degrade imaging and clarity and make dialogue difficult to understand. It's also a bad spot in your room for bass. So, ideally, your seat will be about 1/3rd of your room's length (from front to back) from the back wall that is behind your seat, and thus about 2/3rds of the room's length from the front wall. And your primary seating position will ideally be roughly centered width-wise.

The front portion of your room will ideally be somewhat damped with acoustic treatments that absorb reflected sound waves. This makes the sound coming from your front speakers pin-point precise. Directly behind you will be a thick bass trap, to curtail those reflections off of the back wall and help to even out the bass response back there a little bit. Meanwhile, the back portion of your room will remain more "lively" by opting to scatter the sound with diffusion treatments. This will retain the ambience created by your surround speakers, and help to create the enveloping surround effect that seems to "blanket" your seats with surround effects.

The corners and edges of your room can house bass traps, which will reduce standing wave problems and give you "tighter" bass that doesn't linger and reverberate throughout the room well after it was supposed to stop.

What's great is, all of these treatments can look good and come at a reasonable price these days. Between Acoustimac.com and GiKacoustics.com, you can get regular solid color fabric panels, designer fabric panels, suede panels, patterned panels, or even panels with stock or custom artwork printed on them so that they can literally double as posters or artwork. Most people hang some pictures or other decoration on their walls. Why not kill two birds with one stone and have that artwork also be an acoustic panel?

And let's not forget about soundproofing. One of the reasons why the sound in an IMAX theater sounds so clear is because it is LOUD. Louder than THX Reference level, actually. Most people don't listen anywhere near that loud at home. Sometimes it's because their home theater can't play that loud without sounding all distorted, screechy, or on the verge of breaking! But more often, I think, it's because playing movies that loud would draw complaints from neighbors or certainly from other people who live in your house and don't want every room shaking when you watch a movie!

So it's all about creating a good environment for movie watching in your room first. Check out soundproofingcompany.com for the best information and products for soundproofing. You might end up doing some renovations, or even building and entire "room within a room" if you're really serious about getting full THX Reference Volume levels. That's not easy or cheap, but it's also not as expensive as you might think. Today's products make it easier than its ever been to actually soundproof a room. If everything behind the existing walls is already good, a simple layer of Green Glue and a second layer of inexpensive 5/8" drywall right over the existing walls and ceiling can make a dramatic difference and eat up very little floor space and money.

Once the room is good, you turn your attention to speakers and subwoofers. And after that, the processing and amplification to drive them. To get IMAX-type sound, you need highly dynamic speakers that are capable of high output levels without distortion. Easier said than done! And they won't be tiny cubes or skinny sticks that you mount on your wall. They're going to have to be proper speakers that can move the air and get the job done right! Same goes for the subwoofers. First off, that IS plural. More than one subwoofer isn't so much about playing louder (although that's an added bonus side effect ;) ). Rather, multiple subwoofers spread around the room allows you to have even, uniform bass at all of your seats, rather than only being able to EQ a lone subwoofer for good bass at ONE seat, but not at any of the other seats in the room. Having multiple subs creates lots of constructive and destructive interference between all of the bass waves, which leads to a "smoothing" effect so that you don't have any giant humps or dips at any given seat. Just more or a smooth, even, uniform bass response at every seat in the room.

When it comes to amplifier power, you often don't need nearly as much as you might think. Highly dynamic speakers that can play loud without distortion are often highly efficient speakers, too. Many will produce over 90dB of output from just 1 Watt of power if you are 1 meter (about 3 feet) away. Every time you double that distance, the output drops by about 3-4 dB in a room. Out in a wide open field, doubling the distance would drop the output by 6dB. But in a room, even one that is acoustically treated, you still get reflections that reinforce the sound, so a doubling of distance from the speakers only drops you 3-4dB.

THX Reference volume calls for 85dB at the listening position for average loudness content. That's very loud. But that's what you're getting in IMAX or a THX theater. Peaks - big explosions and crescendos and whatnot - get up to 105dB in the speakers, and a crazy loud 115dB in the LFE bass.

Every time you want to get 3dB louder, you need double the number of Watts. If you want to get 10dB louder, you need 10x the number of Watts! So MOST of the time, you only need 1 or 2 Watts. But that can jump to 100 or 200 Watts in the blink of an eye.

So, for example, you might get some efficient speakers that produce 93dB using just 1 Watt from 1 meter away. Now let's say your seat is 4 meters away (about 13 feet). To get there, you doubled the 1 meter distance to 2 meters, and then doubled 2 meters to 4 meters. Each doubling dropped you 3-4 dB. So let's say you're in a well damped, acoustically treated room and dropped 4dB with each doubling. That's 8dB down, so 1 Watt from the amplifier is giving you 85dB of output at this 4 meter distance with these efficient speakers. Voila, you're already at full THX Reference Volume for average loudness content! 1 Watt. Doesn't take much ;)

But then come those 105dB explosions. 10x the Watts gets you 10dB more output. So 10 Watts = 95dB. And 100 Watts = 105dB. We're there!

But what if your speakers weren't as efficient? Maybe they produced 90dB using 1 Watt at 1 meter instead of 93dB. Now you'd need another 3dB of output with these less efficient speakers. 100 Watts gets you 102dB at the same distance with the less efficient speakers. 3dB requires double the number of Watts. So with these 90dB/1 Watt/1 meter speakers, you need 200 Watts to hit those 105dB peaks from 4 meters away.

And now you can see how even less efficient speakers or a farther distance could make the number of Watts needed skyrocket in no time! And most speakers can't handle more than about 400 Watts max. But some can handle a lot more. So it's simply all about getting appropriately efficient speakers and enough amplifier power to handle your particular seating distance.

Them's the basics, anyway. Hopefully that'll be of some help to you :)
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
Listen to first reflection, if you want nice, loud, and clear, you will want high sensitivity speakers. Here is a list of some which is nice because it makes clear what you can expect based on their sensitivity spec. You will also need sizable subwoofers; you can not get big, clean bass out of small subs. There are really only a handful of sub makers out there who are producing the kinds of subs that can get you to Imax level sound.

First Reflection, I don't know where you get the stamina for those posts!
 
H

hjustin

Audioholic
I knew this was going to be a lot more complicated than just upgrading to Monitor 9s and getting a better receiver. :D

My wife is extremely forgiving when it comes to this stuff because as I've said in other posts, we're both movie-people. Its one of our favorite things we do together. And while I could certainly implement some of the suggestions in FirstReflections's awesome and hugely generous post, I am limited to a large degree because our home theater doubles as our living room. The last time we had a dedicated room, CRT front projectors were all the rage.

I guess I need to figure out if this is an "all or none" prospect. Can I get most of the way to where I want to be with a "light" implementation of the recommendations above? Truth be told, I'm so novice at this stuff that I may not even have the equipment I own configured optimally.

Lots to think about. My wife is expecting me to get some kind of receiver today so we don't have to watch The Walking Dead tonight on TV speakers.

Thank you both for your suggestions. I very much appreciate them. Now....I have work to do on this project. Should be fun. :)
 
fuzz092888

fuzz092888

Audioholic Warlord
I knew this was going to be a lot more complicated than just upgrading to Monitor 9s and getting a better receiver. :D

My wife is extremely forgiving when it comes to this stuff because as I've said in other posts, we're both movie-people. Its one of our favorite things we do together. And while I could certainly implement some of the suggestions in FirstReflections's awesome and hugely generous post, I am limited to a large degree because our home theater doubles as our living room. The last time we had a dedicated room, CRT front projectors were all the rage.

I guess I need to figure out if this is an "all or none" prospect. Can I get most of the way to where I want to be with a "light" implementation of the recommendations above? Truth be told, I'm so novice at this stuff that I may not even have the equipment I own configured optimally.

Lots to think about. My wife is expecting me to get some kind of receiver today so we don't have to watch The Walking Dead tonight on TV speakers.

Thank you both for your suggestions. I very much appreciate them. Now....I have work to do on this project. Should be fun. :)
I had the exact opposite experience when I went to the IMAX to see skyfall.

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/movies-blu-ray-discs-dvds-theatricks/82462-skyfall-imax.html
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
I might suggest not trying to do all the research and buy the perfect receiver today, I would look at craigslist in your area and just get something cheap temporary which can power your speakers. If you are in any kind of populated area, you can often find older but still working receivers for 20 or 30 dollars. This will buy you time to figure out what you want exactly, and I don't think a new expensive receiver would be a good impulse purchase, especially seeing how you want to upgrade your speakers but aren't sure with what yet. You should figure out what speakers you want first before you buy a receiver, so you know that the receiver can handle the speakers you want. If you are serious in wanting great sound and are willing to spend the money, look for a receiver with Audyssey MultiEQ 32XT with the Sub EQ. This feature is in the higher end Denon, Integra, and Onkyo receivers, and can make setting up multiple subs relatively simple.
 
fuzz092888

fuzz092888

Audioholic Warlord
My wife is extremely forgiving when it comes to this stuff because as I've said in other posts, we're both movie-people. Its one of our favorite things we do together. And while I could certainly implement some of the suggestions in FirstReflections's awesome and hugely generous post, I am limited to a large degree because our home theater doubles as our living room. The last time we had a dedicated room, CRT front projectors were all the rage.

I guess I need to figure out if this is an "all or none" prospect. Can I get most of the way to where I want to be with a "light" implementation of the recommendations above? Truth be told, I'm so novice at this stuff that I may not even have the equipment I own configured optimally.
It doesn't have to be an all or nothing proposition. Building up over a few years isn't a terrible idea and it will give you time to learn a lot more. Plus the more time you give yourself the better chance you have on scoring deals. If you really love the IMAX experience and you want to be able to have that on a budget then you need high efficiency speakers that that are generally horn loaded. I think firstreflection said something to that effect above. If you're on a budget Klipsch is the first thing that comes to mind.

You'll also want a receiver than can do XT32 as shady stated above since you'll definitely want 2 subs in the future. I wouldn't buy anything too quickly right now since you don't want to have any buyers remorse.
 
H

hjustin

Audioholic
I guess I should have held onto my Denon 591 but I committed to that sale awhile back and I was trying to help out a good friend.

I definitely have no objections to going used and cheap to hold me over. The only feature I would like to have is HDMI switching. While my Panasonic is a 3D set, we rarely use that feature so an older HDMI switching model will do. There's an Onkyo TX-SR605 available locally for $125 on Craigslist. Not seeing much else.

I think the least expensive AVR offering XT32 is the Onkyo 818. Is this a full implementation of MultEQ XT32?
 
Steve81

Steve81

Audioholics Five-0
I think the least expensive AVR offering XT32 is the Onkyo 818. Is this a full implementation of MultEQ XT32?
AFAIK, it doesn't offer the SubEQ option. You'd have to step up to the higher models for that.
 
H

hjustin

Audioholic
It doesn't have to be an all or nothing proposition. Building up over a few years isn't a terrible idea and it will give you time to learn a lot more. Plus the more time you give yourself the better chance you have on scoring deals. If you really love the IMAX experience and you want to be able to have that on a budget then you need high efficiency speakers that that are generally horn loaded. I think firstreflection said something to that effect above. If you're on a budget Klipsch is the first thing that comes to mind.

You'll also want a receiver than can do XT32 as shady stated above since you'll definitely want 2 subs in the future. I wouldn't buy anything too quickly right now since you don't want to have any buyers remorse.
Are the Klipsch towers, center channel, etc. available at Best Buy significantly inferior to what I might find at a home theater specialty store? And I wonder how they might perform against my old V.1 Paradigms. I suppose I could go pick up a few of them, bring them home, and try them out.

I guess the order of operations here should be to decide what speakers I'm going to ultimately end up with and then purchase a receiver that is appropriate. I can use the new receiver to power my Paradigms while I gradually replace them.

My wife is going to give me all kinds of hell if I go through all this and she can't tell a big difference in the end results. :eek:
 
brianedm

brianedm

Audioholic General
Are the Klipsch towers, center channel, etc. available at Best Buy significantly inferior to what I might find at a home theater specialty store? And I wonder how they might perform against my old V.1 Paradigms. I suppose I could go pick up a few of them, bring them home, and try them out.

I guess the order of operations here should be to decide what speakers I'm going to ultimately end up with and then purchase a receiver that is appropriate. I can use the new receiver to power my Paradigms while I gradually replace them.

My wife is going to give me all kinds of hell if I go through all this and she can't tell a big difference in the end results. :eek:
Xt32 can be an expensive proposition, but you can probably still get some good deals on the Denon 4311 as websites will be trying to clear out stock. It's got almost every feature you could currently need (assuming you're not gonna spend $25 k on a 4k tv). Should have enough power for most speakers and it has pre outs to add an external amp if you find you need it :)
 
Steve81

Steve81

Audioholics Five-0
I guess I need to figure out if this is an "all or none" prospect.
I wouldn't say it's all or nothing at all; I mean, your system now is a pretty big leap over TV speakers right? Adding a couple of decent subs will take you another step in the right direction. Adding room treatments another step, and so on.

Can I get most of the way to where I want to be with a "light" implementation of the recommendations above?
I'd certainly say you can achieve excellent results by following the above advice within reason. I mean, it's your living room so one can understand that you're just not going to up and turn it into a dedicated theater room. OTOH, as one example, smart arrangement of furniture doesn't have to lead to an aesthetic catastrophe, yet it can reap some of the same results as dedicated room treatments; ie instead of diffuser panels in the back of the room, you can put some bookshelves that can accomplish much the same thing.
 
H

hjustin

Audioholic
Here's my room. Laminate flooring. We have yet to hang anything on the walls since we moved in. Light curtains on the windows behind the couch on the left. Rugs are out of the question because one of our dogs is a rescue with "plumbing" issues.



TV is wall mounted so I would be reluctant to move it, although I don't think there's a better spot for it. I have my ADP-390s mounted directly on the walls to the left and right and the couch opposite the TV.
 
fuzz092888

fuzz092888

Audioholic Warlord
I saw your post last night. That is unfortunate. The IMAX at the local air force base is very boomy. The multiplex we saw Skyfall at last night is only a few years old. Like I said, the sound was very good...almost like I was floating in it.
The one I went to isn't that old. Under 5 years I think. Still sucks.

AFAIK, it doesn't offer the SubEQ option. You'd have to step up to the higher models for that.
This should bring you to a page with all the products that offer subEQ. $1000 minimum I think for that feature.
Products with Audyssey Technologies | Audyssey

Are the Klipsch towers, center channel, etc. available at Best Buy significantly inferior to what I might find at a home theater specialty store? And I wonder how they might perform against my old V.1 Paradigms. I suppose I could go pick up a few of them, bring them home, and try them out.

I guess the order of operations here should be to decide what speakers I'm going to ultimately end up with and then purchase a receiver that is appropriate. I can use the new receiver to power my Paradigms while I gradually replace them.

My wife is going to give me all kinds of hell if I go through all this and she can't tell a big difference in the end results. :eek:
I'd rather see you with this system

http://www.onecall.com/klipsch-rf-82-ii-system-black-5-channel-home-theater-speaker-system

If you call and talk to onecall they usually can work with you on the price. If you like the sound of the klipsch in best buy then you won't be disappointed with these. The total price works out to about $500 per speaker and would arguable blow the best buy models away. I've heard both the best buy models and some higher end models and I noticed a significant difference. YMMV

Xt32 can be an expensive proposition, but you can probably still get some good deals on the Denon 4311 as websites will be trying to clear out stock. It's got almost every feature you could currently need (assuming you're not gonna spend $25 k on a 4k tv). Should have enough power for most speakers and it has pre outs to add an external amp if you find you need it :)
With the klipsch you should never ever need an external amp, but they'd be nice to have if you ever switched. Like steve and I said, it's really the subEQ that is the big seller and that can be expensive, but it is totally worth it and there's a reason why you pay big bucks for it. Sub EQing is super important for proper sound and audyssey is one of the few commercial companies offering a system that does multiple subs.
 
fuzz092888

fuzz092888

Audioholic Warlord
Here's my room. Laminate flooring. We have yet to hang anything on the walls since we moved in. Light curtains on the windows behind the couch on the left. Rugs are out of the question because one of our dogs is a rescue with "plumbing" issues.



TV is wall mounted so I would be reluctant to move it, although I don't think there's a better spot for it. I have my ADP-390s mounted directly on the walls to the left and right and the couch opposite the TV.
For proper positioning of the rear surrounds you'd actually need to move the couch up to it was even with where the corner cuts in. Then you could add side surrounds in the future. Right now those are set up as side surrounds not rears.
 
Steve81

Steve81

Audioholics Five-0
Are the Klipsch towers, center channel, etc. available at Best Buy significantly inferior to what I might find at a home theater specialty store?
Yes and no. In certain aspects of performance, even low end Klipsch speakers do rather well. Still, we aren't talking about Palladiums here, and you might find something that sounds better to your ears while not sacrificing much in the way of sensitivity/output capability and which don't cost much if any more (including options in the Klipsch Reference line).

I guess the order of operations here should be to decide what speakers I'm going to ultimately end up with and then purchase a receiver that is appropriate.
Yup. The wand picks the wizard, or in this case, the speaker determines what you need in terms of amplification.
 
H

hjustin

Audioholic
Xt32 can be an expensive proposition, but you can probably still get some good deals on the Denon 4311 as websites will be trying to clear out stock. It's got almost every feature you could currently need (assuming you're not gonna spend $25 k on a 4k tv). Should have enough power for most speakers and it has pre outs to add an external amp if you find you need it :)

One of the local home theater stores told me that they rarely ever use Audyssey or MCACC or Sony's equivalent when they do installs and that I was really doing more harm than good by placing such a high emphasis on the need for Audyssey or room correction software.
 
fuzz092888

fuzz092888

Audioholic Warlord
One of the local home theater stores told me that they rarely ever use Audyssey or MCACC or Sony's equivalent when they do installs and that I was really doing more harm than good by placing such a high emphasis on the need for Audyssey or room correction software.
Big red flag to me without some sort of explanation. The odds of someone's room not needing some sort of EQ, especially in the bass region, is highly unlikely. Unless they use some sort of pro setup.
 
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