I'm furious and now poor. Please help!!

[j_garcia]

I mentioned checking what is coming from the outlet because I had this issue when I moved to my currently place. I swithced to a different circuit and the issue was reduced but not completely eliminated. On the first circuit though, the voltage dropped low enough when I had everything running that it would trip my Panamax (that means it dropped below 100VAC), but I am also running a LOT of gear in there

 

[dem beats]

What are the channel levels set at? The shut down is definetely occuring because the power supply is being overloaded, not due to a wire short. It is weird that you're having issues at -10 volume. Some people say that you can power better speakers with lesser receivers. I think you may be in a situation that shows a flaw in that theory.

I may just be deaf. Even the rep at the store thinks it may be true. Then me and all my friends are. Oh well.

Tried 2 sets of wires. not the issue. My DIY's sounded a half of a hair better than contractor grade speaker wire in fact.

I tried to run it in stereo(got a bit louder there and easier on the ears if I pushed it.)

I ran through each speaker and different combinations of them. I could actualy run a bit louder when using less speakers.....of course it sounded like crap as a whole channel was missing but it wouldn't cut out it even got louder than what I would call comfortable.

It sounds like it is an issue of distance from the sources and maybe mark was right and I was looking for more than I/my wallet could handle.

I resolved to work on things I can change instead. I don't want to keep looking on the down side of this issue, and focus on what I can do so I can enjoy my new found hoby instead of looking to playing with it with disdain.

I have am still in the redecorating mode for the room. I have made some temporary changes to make the most of the situation. I have brought the seating closer to the front speakers. I will also be calibrating the center channel to a more optimal position but at the moment the projector is in the way of having it be completely clear of interfearance. I have brought the rears up more. I will be calirating this set up tonight. By bringing everything in closer is is louder and after I calibratre I'm sure it will be clearer. I then won't stress the system to push the sound out so far. It has helped greatly and on the bright side I have some more of my room back......

I am not satisfied with the current set up however. To get a dynamic range of the speakers and use them at the MFG recomended 80 hz cross over the volume seams to need to be higher to fill the need. Liken my situation to a mustang with 900HP but 15 lbs of torque. I don't feel the music behind the speakers as I had before when listening to the rotel set up.

As the step up from the current receiver I have isn't going to offer too much more in the way of raw amperage aparently, even if the rated power is there.
I have been recomended in one direction if I need to fill the void for more power and that is a seperate amp. I big nasty burley 200ish wpc bad boy. I just don't have 3000-4000 laying around. I am not familiar enough with the inner workings of these electronics to make the judgement on if a different receiver will help. I don't think I can just throw another 200 bucks at a receiver and expect a miracle to be born. Maybe Ebay or audio/videogon will have something down the road for me when I have some money saved up. I have too much more to do to the room for that and I am hoping to create a verry fine DIY sub sometime soon. I want a SvS one but I'm too poor and the GAF is starting to redline.... I will have to convince her I found the key to the set up in room dynamics, which I still might. I have made huge leaps in sound quality by the recent cosmetic aplication of fabric to the walls and some fetcing velvet.... Pics comming soon to the HT pic area.

Maybe I am crazy, or deaf but it really seamed when those speakers were driven by a more powerfull source they seamed to come alive, even at lower levels. The mid bass was a touch more full and blossomed into the room, and the highs a bit higher but more fluid.

I appreciate you all for the help. I have tried everything you have all mentioned, accept checking the AC but the breaker reads fine.

 

[rumble]

As the step up from the current receiver I have isn't going to offer too much more in the way of raw amperage aparently, even if the rated power is there.
I have been recomended in one direction if I need to fill the void for more power and that is a seperate amp. I big nasty burley 200ish wpc bad boy. I just don't have 3000-4000 laying around. I am not familiar enough with the inner workings of these electronics to make the judgement on if a different receiver will help. I don't think I can just throw another 200 bucks at a receiver and expect a miracle to be born.

I think you need more power and you don't need to spend 3-4k to get it. Have you considered less expensive external amps? I would recommend the Behringer a500 which ironically, can be had for around 200 bucks. This amp should be able to drive your main speakers better than the integra and it should take enough load off the receiver to allow it to run the remaining speakers without cutting out.

 

[dem beats]

I think you need more power and you don't need to spend 3-4k to get it. Have you considered less expensive external amps? I would recommend the Behringer a500 which ironically, can be had for around 200 bucks. This amp should be able to drive your main speakers better than the integra and it should take enough load off the receiver to allow it to run the remaining speakers without cutting out.

I didn't know that that was an option. I thought it was drive all 5 or nothing.

 

[Seth=L]

No, you can have the receiver take car of the surrounds and center and the Behringer will power the fronts, very easy to configure.

 

[dem beats]

No, you can have the receiver take car of the surrounds and center and the Behringer will power the fronts, very easy to configure.

hrm.... that could be helpfull to get a more musical sound out of the front left and rights also.....

Damn. I may feel an upgrade comming along soon =D

I have made some verry nice progress. I auto calibrated, I didnt' liek the sound, I went back and adjusted the surrounds and center again. I am working on a room position where I can get the seating to be closer to the front. I may have a plan that will allow for GAF.

I am still in the process of working on the entertainment center and that will eleviate many current issues with dynamics of the room but I can say even a general shortening of distance from all speakers by 2 feet made a big differance. I have a problem with interferance on the front left now though as an AC cord is runnong over it. I may change my banana plugs too. They have a screw on tip and it's driving me nuts.

Before I get any more amplification issues settled I will probably be gettign a new sub. I'm thinking an SVS cylinder as they seam to provide the lowest of the low frequency down to 10 hz with some pretty solid power behind it. (more than I need I am verry sure) Or I may try a DIY set up.

 

[Jey Jockey]

Sounds to me like a simple case of your avr unable to drive 4 ohm or lower loads, this is very common. Most avr's are unable to do this to any great volume. If the manual does not state that it is 4ohm capable or doesn't mention 4 ohms, be very leary indeed. There are a few avr's that can do this and one of them is Denon.

 

[rumble]

I didn't know that that was an option. I thought it was drive all 5 or nothing.

It is quite easy, just plug the front right and left channel pre-outs from the integra to the inputs on the amp. Hook the speaker cables up to the external amp and recalibrate.

 

[hemiram]

Have you ruled out a receiver problem? The place you bought it from, or a local repair place should be able to check to make sure that it's putting out what it should be putting out. This sounds sort of like the problem a friend of mine had recently with his new Pioneer (can't remember the model #) receiver. It seemed fine when he was running just a pair of speakers for a few days, before he got his TV and we set everything up, but when we hooked all the speakers up, it began acting strangely. The first sign of trouble was almost immediately after hooking everything up. It would "click" every so often, and it sounded odd. A few minutes later, it went into safe mode, or whatever it was called. It seemed to get worse, as time went on, it went into safe mode sooner and at a lower volume.

Since it was like 2AM, I went home, unhooked my Yamaha RX-V659, and took it over to see if it worked ok, and it did. It was able to play almost painfully loud for almost an hour straight. The Pioneer was stone cold by then, and we hooked it back up and tried it again, and after about 15 minutes, it clicked and then shut itself off. It was VERY hot. He called the store he bought it at, and since he knows the boss there, they took it back, and he got another Pioneer receiver (don't know the model, pioneer isn't one of my favorite brands ) but it was two models above the first one. That one worked fine. The store called him and told him that the first one was a dud, and definitely had a problem, it was shutting down for them too.

 

[Haoleb]

I appreciate you all for the help. I have tried everything you have all mentioned, accept checking the AC but the breaker reads fine.

What was meant for checking the AC was that if you have a Multimeter to check the voltage, and for correct wiring. A full load test is the best to check for voltage drop under load but most people dont have the equipment necessary to do this.

 

[dem beats]

well I'm screwed

I called integra, they said I should not use the receiver with those speakers. The step up could handle it, but that one can not. Energy recomended an exteral amp or new receiver also.

I will be calling the Store this week to see if they will work with me. I am pretty ticked off. He told me this however.... I dont' know if it's BS but it smells like it to me.

"It wouldn't be worthwhile to buy a more powerfull AV receiver as none of them have much more raw power than the one I have. The only step up is to get an external amp with lots more juice."

He likened it to having lots of horse power with no torque.

I will say this. I'm only unhappy with this set up durring really high output scenes. When driving music or just front stage it gets loud enough. Even too loud. Durring the movie Hero it got deafenint durring some of the scenes, and so sweetly airy in the highs. Where I become depressed is when running scenes like the pod race in episode 1. Several of the other large battles in any of the star wars will click it off. When all channels are trying to deliver a dynamic action scene with many different sounds, the over all volume drops 1/2 DB almost at parts..... This may not sound like alot but considering it should have higher volume levels durring these scenes I was dissapointed. It's not so fun to show off the new system to the guys when it clicks off on you. I actualy feel that some movies play quite a bit quiter. SW being one of the most noticable. I have a theory. All of the background from the rears playing are draining the receiver and thus not playing where they should be.

 

[cfrizz]

The integra guy isn't giving you a load of BS Dem. Most receivers can't handle the load that you have. Especially as you have noted on intense movie scenes.

Your most viable option IMO is to get a separate 200wpc or more amplifier. Check Audiogon for good used amps. I would save for a 5 channel one & be done with it all in one swoop. Until then turn it down.

Sorry you had to find this out the hard way.

 

[dem beats]

The integra guy isn't giving you a load of BS Dem. Most receivers can't handle the load that you have. Especially as you have noted on intense movie scenes.

Your most viable option IMO is to get a separate 200wpc or more amplifier. Check Audiogon for good used amps. I would save for a 5 channel one & be done with it all in one swoop. Until then turn it down.

Sorry you had to find this out the hard way.

That was the rep from the store. He said he had been selling those spakers in HT for a long time with no trouble ever before....

I guess I did learn the hard way though.

 

[dem beats]

vindication



Well, I had sent an email to their service department asking them to meet me half way and find a solution to the over worked receiver. They will be willing to work with me on a resolution and find a new receiver unit. When I walked in there I basicaly had the I don't care as long as it plays my speakers and that got me into a mess of trouble and didn't even play my speakers. Now I come to you asking help.

It's like a great big upgrade for me with virgin excitement but a bit of wisdom now..

He said they have anything available to them if I so chose I supose so long as it's not too exotic. So I wanted some of you to help me find out what may be things to look for, if you all would please indulge me.

I want it to be powerfull enough to play the speakers has to have 4 ohm minimum I now find out. 8 ohm nominal(I beleive). I am also interested in the 2nd room function I think. I have been thinking about wiring my home to have speakers in them all. Cheep but decent enough speakers. Outside mostly for the back yard so as I relax and enjoy the wonderfull weather and slowly let time pass in my hamoc drinking a fine beer or cider I can be lulled by fabalous tunes.... I don't know much about this function though... is it just another smaller amp within the receiver or is it just a second set of preouts? The second would be much less interesting.

As this is going to be 99% HT and games, especialy since I don't even have a CD player and my IPOD burned out on me, I would have to play all the tunes from the laptop with an RCA.... Not a bad idea actual as it has an S video out... hmmmm my mind is at work!

I run mainly just the XBOX 360 and my new decent DVD player just for regular DVD's and don't have any plans for going high deff yet. I still need a new sub and then a projector upgrade way down the line....

So, thank you all so much for all the help and being the sounding board, and I call to you my ear loving brothers again for some help in spending my money with me. The receiver I have is valued at about 800 and I don't want to go too much higher. Perhaps another 200 at most, I can't justify that when I desperately need to upgrade my felodyne DPS as the energy speakers just sound waaay too good for that little guy.

Thanks!

 

[PENG]

As others have told you, if you want to listen to your music loud you should get an external amp. A two channel will do for stereo listening, a 3 or 5 channel will be better for 5.1 SACD, DVDA and movies.

However, based on the way you described your issue, I strongly suspect the Integra is defective. I don't think the power amp section is defective but it is quite likely the electronic protection circuit is defective such that it would go into protection, or 'safe' mode prematurely. If the amp itself was the problem, the sound quality would have deteriorated/distorted at least slightly but noticeably before it shut itself down. You seemed to be okay with the sound quality, your problem is that it shut itself down when you felt it should't. For your information, my Energy Veritas 2.3i are much less sensitive (87dB vs 91 dB) than your RC-50 and also rated 8 ohm nominal 4 ohm minimum, yet my Denon receiver has no problem driving them to extremely loud level without ever shutting down. I added an amp anyway to get the best out of my speakers, not that I really have to.

I suggest you work with the dealer and get your receiver exchange for another one, either in kind, or to the next step up. Then add an external amp and be done with it. If you want to add a 2 channel amp for now and have the flexibility to add another 1 or 3 more channels later, you can consider the Outlaw monoblocks. They go for $300 each (per channel) brand new. Or you can go for an used 3 or 5 channel amps. As cfrizz said, get 200WPC minimum if you want to do it right the first time.

 

[dem beats]

As others have told you, if you want to listen to your music loud you should get an external amp. A two channel will do for stereo listening, a 3 or 5 channel will be better for 5.1 SACD, DVDA and movies.

However, based on the way you described your issue, I strongly suspect the Integra is defective. I don't think the power amp section is defective but it is quite likely the electronic protection circuit is defective such that it would go into protection, or 'safe' mode prematurely. If the amp itself was the problem, the sound quality would have deteriorated/distorted at least slightly but noticeably before it shut itself down. You seemed to be okay with the sound quality, your problem is that it shut itself down when you felt it should't. For your information, my Energy Veritas 2.3i are much less sensitive (87dB vs 91 dB) than your RC-50 and also rated 8 ohm nominal 4 ohm minimum, yet my Denon receiver has no problem driving them to extremely loud level without ever shutting down. I added an amp anyway to get the best out of my speakers, not that I really have to.

I suggest you work with the dealer and get your receiver exchange for another one, either in kind, or to the next step up. Then add an external amp and be done with it. If you want to add a 2 channel amp for now and have the flexibility to add another 1 or 3 more channels later, you can consider the Outlaw monoblocks. They go for $300 each (per channel) brand new. Or you can go for an used 3 or 5 channel amps. As cfrizz said, get 200WPC minimum if you want to do it right the first time.

I have returned and replaced my first integra amp, I will be getting an external amp, someday after I upgrade my sub. I have had the same issue with both integra amps. I think I may step up, as I have yet to put enough hours into the system to really become a firm beleiver in the receiver. I would like to have a 200-400 wpc amp, but I can't find a way to do that without spending another 400-500 bucks and thats used. I just want something that won't shut itself off while I save up for an external amp and sub?

 

[dem beats]

shameless TTT bump

No one has any thoughts?

 

[markw]

As has been said several times by several people, you're gonna need a bigger boat.

No offense, but what part of that do you not understand?

 

[emorphien]

That was the rep from the store. He said he had been selling those spakers in HT for a long time with no trouble ever before....

I guess I did learn the hard way though.

Perhaps his other customers aren't playing them as loud, or have a receiver with more "balls."

Your speakers aren't the hardest to drive, nor the easiest either. 4 ohms minimum at 87.5db could make some receivers sweat it you're pushing it hard.

I wouldn't even try my stereo speakers on my HT receiver, 4ohms nominal at 86.5db isn't the easiest to drive for a mass market receiver unless you move up to the higher level stuff.

I'll second the "maybe you're deaf" comment. Same for your friends if they have the same car audio hobby it sounds like you do. A lot of people who play with car audio that I know push it to levels way too high and do a lot of damage to their hearing.

 

[tomd51]

dem beats;
I believe earlier back I read you'd swapped out your speaker wire a couple of times w/no change in results as well as the receiver itself. I have an idea that while it may seem silly, may possibly be playing into this problem.

What I did not see anywhere in all the previous posts was what size gauge speaker wire are you running. The reason I ask this is I have personally run into issues before in which I set up some surrounds with some wire I just ran for testing to see if I liked the placement. I liked the placement, but forgot to swap out the scrawny wire I was using for testing my surrounds and replace it w/some decent gauge wire. Whenever I got to a decent listening level (-30dB and down, approx. 75dB), my receiver went into protection mode almost identical to the problem you reported. When I ran the 14 gauge wire for my 35 ft. runs, I could play right up past reference (+12 on my Denon at the time, IIRC). I suppose you could liken it to trying to blow air through a straw, the smaller the straw, the harder it is to blow the air.

This was quite a few years ago, but it was a good learning lesson. In fact, a few months ago, my brother had a banana plug come slightly loose from one of the receiver's speaker terminals and whenever he got the volume up/below -30dB, he had the same problem. After re-seating the banana plug, he was good to go. So while they were slightly different problems, they exhibited the same behavior.

I'm a big proponent of external amplification and would definitely recommend it in general, but I think your problem is not that you don't have enough power for your setup, but there's definitely something not right in the configuration. If you don't have it already, I'd suggest using 10 to 12 gauge wire for your mains and a minimum of 14 gauge for your surrounds, assuming the run is 50 ft. or less.

If this does work out to be the issue, that's a pretty darn cheap solution, but if not, it's most definitely worth a shot.

Good luck! -TD