If I were to upgrade my towers, which one of these is the best deal?

[monkish54]

Yup, that's the recurring theme - plots aren't everything and we need to listen to the speakers before making judgement.

I don't necessarily agree with this. A single on-axis measurement isn't everything, sure, but depending on the measurements, one can gain a rather good judgment of the speaker's sound.

I don't know about you, (I'm not being "snippy", I really don't know. Perhaps you did it to be a guinea pig and compare them to the Salon 2 for us***) but I bought the Philharmonic's completely based upon its great measurements.

*** Thank you!!!!

 

[gtpsuper24]

Measurements will tell you how it measures in an anechoic chamber. It won't tell you what its going to sound like once you get it in a living room with hard reflective surfaces (lots of windows, tile/hardwood floor) or too much "deadening" (thick carpet, heavy drapes,).

I don't want to discount speaker measurements but they will never replace actual listening sessions to determine what the user prefers.

Example. I and many many others bought the Arx A5 without seeing a single plot/graph other than your basis -/+ response and other basic information. Everyone including me has been extremely happy with them.

Measurements can be fudged with to show something that isn't there or can be deceptive.

I'll stick with listening first and user/owner opinions.

 

[monkish54]

Measurements will tell you how it measures in an anechoic chamber. It won't tell you what its going to sound like once you get it in a living room with hard reflective surfaces (lots of windows, tile/hardwood floor) or too much "deadening" (thick carpet, heavy drapes,).

Above the transitional frequency the change is not huge. (What I've read and seen in graphs. Although, I haven't seen every graph.)

I don't want to discount speaker measurements but they will never replace actual listening sessions to determine what the user prefers.

I'm not talking about preference. I'm talking about neutrality. To me, the only meaningful goal in speaker design is neutrality. Some might prefer Zu Audio to the Revel Salon 2, but that doesn't mean Zu Audio makes neutral speakers. If one likes Zu, I'm happy they found something they enjoy. I'm not an audiophile who looks for gear that pleases me, I look for gear that is as neutral as possible and listen to music that pleases me.

Measurements can be fudged with to show something that isn't there or can be deceptive.

Sure, but I'm referring to graphs with decent smoothing and a company with integrity. CSS, Acoustic Elegance, Revel, etc. come to mind.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I don't necessarily agree with this. A single on-axis measurement isn't everything, sure, but depending on the measurements, one can gain a rather good judgment of the speaker's sound.

I don't know about you, (I'm not being "snippy", I really don't know. Perhaps you did it to be a guinea pig and compare them to the Salon 2 for us***) but I bought the Philharmonic's completely based upon its great measurements.

*** Thank you!!!!

I like numbers and plots. I like measurements. But I don't believe for a second that just because a speaker doesn't measure as well as another speaker on Stereophile that it won't sound as good.

It just means the risk may be higher. The potential for suboptimal sound may be higher if the measurement isn't as good.

I also believe it is possible that a well-measured speaker may not sound as good as a not-as-well-measured speaker in any given room. That is the reason I say measurement is NOT everything.

Just because a speaker measures well does not guarantee you will PREFER it. It means the risk are much lower.

We are talking about human personal preference here, not a calculated scientific mathematic equation.

I ain't no bad robot.

 

[WARMACHINE4444]

Measurements will tell you how it measures in an anechoic chamber. It won't tell you what its going to sound like once you get it in a living room with hard reflective surfaces (lots of windows, tile/hardwood floor) or too much "deadening" (thick carpet, heavy drapes,).

I don't want to discount speaker measurements but they will never replace actual listening sessions to determine what the user prefers.

Example. I and many many others bought the Arx A5 without seeing a single plot/graph other than your basis -/+ response and other basic information. Everyone including me has been extremely happy with them.

Measurements can be fudged with to show something that isn't there or can be deceptive.

I'll stick with listening first and user/owner opinions.

Thanks all for the graph measurements discussion in relation to how a speaker will/might sound etc...I keep understanding more and more lol

gtsuper24, how does the Arx A5 highs sound like? Have you yourself heard the Rx6 or KEF Uni-Q tweeter? Does the planar tweeter have a bright, forward sound like the metal tweeters? I like the bright forward detailed sound and am not sure if it's cause the tweeter is metal or the design or both or none? lol does that make sense?

 

[monkish54]

I like numbers and plots. I like measurements. But I don't believe for a second that just because a speaker doesn't measure as well as another speaker on Stereophile that it won't sound as good.

So far, in my experience, the better measuring speaker has always sounded better. Regardless, that's personal preference. There will always be a people who prefer Zu over Salon 2, but the studies that Sean Olive has done with the trained listener etc. have shown that people generally like better measuring speakers more. Anyway, I'm talking about neutrality. I don't want a speaker that adds its own color to the sound...even if I like that color. I want a neutral speaker. One that presents everything (meaning all the musical content) to me with detail and clarity. If the OP want's something other than neutral, then he should listen to LOTS of different speakers. If the OP want neutrality, measurements are vital.

I'm not saying listening isn't important, that's kinda the whole point of this hobby XD, but, for me, measurements are vital because I DON'T want good sounding gear! I want gear that doesn't sound like anything! Much like your wonderful Salon 2.

I also believe it is possible that a well-measured speaker may not sound as good as a not-as-well-measured speaker in any given room. That is the reason I say measurement is NOT everything.

Perhaps. Perhaps you will like the color the not-so-well-measuring speaker produces, but again, neutrality.

Just because a speaker measures well does not guarantee you will PREFER it. It means the risk are much lower.

I don't disagree. There will always be the Zu guy, but I still want neutrality not color preference. Personally, I have liked every good measuring speaker I have heard, and disliked most of the others. FWIW, probably 50% of the time I looked up the measurement after listening, as apposed to before.

We are talking about human personal preference here, not a calculated scientific mathematic equation.

I ain't no bad robot.

People make this hobby out to be much more subjective than it really is. Like it's magic. (Not saying you do ADTG!) Sure there are personal preferences, but I think science can help explain some preferences. For instance, some harmonic distortion is said to sound pleasing. This is the reason some people like some tube amps (I believe it was tube amps..) you might say that's personal preference, sure, but it's explained via science. I am a man of science. Maybe I'll enjoy the tube amps more than a solid state amp without said pleasing distortion, but I don't want it. I don't want any distortion no matter how enjoyable it is!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

...There will always be people who prefer Zu over Salon 2...I am a man of science.

Oh, I'm definitely a person of science. Eight years at my univeristy studying engineering, mathematic, and tons of hardcore science. It's my career. I see research studies all the time. It's part of my life. Research, proof, science, serious stuffs.

But I draw the line when it comes to my hobby, entertainment, games, fun, etc.

Some people have tried to convince me that the Wilson Sasha sound better than the Salon2 and 207/2 as well.

Some people say the Orion sound better than Salon2, 802D, and KEF 201/2, etc.

Some people say the GedLee Abbey sound best, etc, etc.

I believe their preferences. I'm cool with that.

It's like when you are in college, you have the knowledge from books and theories, which is crucial. But when you graduate and start your job, you realize all those books and theories don't tell you the whole story. There is no substitute for real hands-on experience. So then you form a new knowledge based on what you've learned and your own actual hands-on life experience.

I own speakers that measure great and some that don't measure so great. Comparing speakers in my own environment and control is a huge advantage over auditioning many speakers in stores, show rooms, unfamiliar environments with less control, which is how most people form their judgement of speakers.

In the past I've made judgements prematurely, mainly based on "Science" done by Harman International. I formed BIAS. Speakers that don't have great on-axis and off-axis FR must suck - like Martin Logan, Magnepan, Wilson Audio, Zu, Tekton, B&W, etc. And speakers that sound "poorly" or not as great to me at the stores must also suck because I've heard them for myself at the stores- like Paradigm or PSB.

My new judgement is that I will reserve judgement unless I have actually heard the speakers in my own house, setup, and full control.

 

[gtpsuper24]

Thanks all for the graph measurements discussion in relation to how a speaker will/might sound etc...I keep understanding more and more lol

gtsuper24, how does the Arx A5 highs sound like? Have you yourself heard the Rx6 or KEF Uni-Q tweeter? Does the planar tweeter have a bright, forward sound like the metal tweeters? I like the bright forward detailed sound and am not sure if it's cause the tweeter is metal or the design or both or none? lol does that make sense?

No the Arx A5 doesn't have a bright forward treble. The Arx speakers have a more neutral but still detailed high end, they're not in your face bright like some speakers I've owned and listened too, like Axiom speakers. Sold all my more expensive Axiom speakers for the Arx speakers.

I did a comparision between the Axioms and Arx and the biggest thing I noticed with the Arx tweeter was the separation in stringed instruments, no overhang after ringing and really just a more natural sound. They also dont beam like some ribbons and planars.

 

[dgkirkman]

Wow opinions r like asholes,,everybody has 1. You can take a great speaker n make it sound bad n take a bad speaker n make it sound good but the trick is to take any speaker n make it sound great to u in your environment . If I was going to take n opinion it would b from someone who does it for a livin. U wouldn't take your car to the auto mechanic to get fixed n than tell him how to do it.Did we get off topic here .Just sayin

 

[monkish54]

Oh, I'm definitely a person of science.

I can't reply to the rest of it because i'll be gone today, but I just wanted to clarify that I wasn't inferring you aren't a man of science. Considering your profession, it would be foolish to do so.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I can't reply to the rest of it because i'll be gone today, but I just wanted to clarify that I wasn't inferring you aren't a man of science. Considering your profession, it would be foolish to do so.

Oh, I knew that. I was just talking.

Perhaps a more PC term would be "man of SPEAKER Science".

I'll admit I'm not that much into speaker science.

 

[WARMACHINE4444]

No the Arx A5 doesn't have a bright forward treble. The Arx speakers have a more neutral but still detailed high end, they're not in your face bright like some speakers I've owned and listened too, like Axiom speakers. Sold all my more expensive Axiom speakers for the Arx speakers.

I did a comparision between the Axioms and Arx and the biggest thing I noticed with the Arx tweeter was the separation in stringed instruments, no overhang after ringing and really just a more natural sound. They also dont beam like some ribbons and planars.

Thanks gtsuper for sharing your experience on owning the A5s. It sounds like an amazing speaker! I don't think locally for me I can listen to a similar planar tweeter like the Arx uses, other than that flagship Monitor Audio PL200. Hoping to go out and listen to speakers on my next day off coming up. Keep yall updated cheers!

 

[WARMACHINE4444]

Oh sorry and the gold ma line with ribbon tweeters, I can hear.

 

[cpp]

Measurements will tell you how it measures in an anechoic chamber.

and very few speakers companies and lets not forget audio equipment reviewers actually do their test in a anechoic chamber and some have never seen a real anechoic chamber. So I agree the real test is how the equipment sounds in your room.

 

[monkish54]

Oh, I knew that. I was just talking.

Perhaps a more PC term would be "man of SPEAKER Science".

I'll admit I'm not that much into speaker science.

I very much love the science behind speaker design and acoustics.

and very few speakers companies and lets not forget audio equipment reviewers actually do their test in a anechoic chamber and some have never seen a real anechoic chamber.

Most use gated measurements.

 

[WARMACHINE4444]

Hello everyone. Got to goto 2 more audio stores for a listen! Both were well organized, sound rooms, friendly helpful sales ppl like the MA audio store. So, I did not listen to any flagship or speakers I couldn't afford/over $1500 or bookshelf, only towers. Sorry Used same 2 songs as 1st outing.

1st store had Paradigm, Dynaudio, Vienna Acoustics, Cerwin Vega.
2nd store had Focal, Def Tech, Boston Acoustics, Sinclair Audio


1st store, run on Marantz cd player, Yamaha rx820

Paradigm Monitor 9 v7 - $1097 CDN
Paradigm Monitor 11 v7 - $1397 CDN

I listened to the 9s first, then the 11s. They were both right beside each other. The 9s were really nice and bright, forward, excellent clean highs and transparency. Wide and airy soundstage too. Bass had good punch, tight and fast. I felt that the 9s lacked depth and low bass extension. It lacked low sub bass presence and punch/impact. Maybe because it's utilizing 5.5" drivers. I thought my KLHs had better lower extended bass. Overall I liked the sound of the 9s, the midrange, highs are way better my KLHs, better/comparable to my B&Ws. Low bass is slightly lacking to me. Overall they sounded nice. RX6s sounded better to me. MLs had more bass, but not better highs to me. KEFs sounded better outright overall in both highs and lows soundstage etc.

The 11s I enjoyed more. Almost on par with the RX6s. The 11s had a wider, bigger soundstage than the 9s. Way more bass impact, extension and overall sounded more full and louder than the 9s. Slightly more detail in the highs, maybe because of the soundstage/imaging. Great dynamics, maybe more bass output than RX6s, but RX6s had a tiny more airiness to them. Highs and overall I liked better than MLs. KEFs had more details in highs, bass was equally comparable, but I found KEFs harsh also. Did not find the 11s harsh. My KLHs blown out My B&Ws way less bass, comparable highs, overall sound 11s way better.

I really liked how the 11s sounded. Almost same enjoyment as the RX6s, slighty edge in detail to MAs but 11s to me had slight edge in bass output. I liked how the 11s looked, clean and simple and they come in cherry.


2nd audio store, run on Onkyo cd player, Onkyo 8050

Focal Chorus 716v wengé - $1359 CDN

Didn't have the system cranked too loud, but wow these sounded the most smooth, not forward or bright as the other speakers I like, but just as transparent, clean, detailed and extension in the highs! Bass was deep, tight and great presence. Wide and airy imaging/soundstage. Great dynamics too, altho it wasn't as loud as all the other auditions(quietest by far) it had amazing impact and presence in sound. I really liked how these sounded, without being bright and forward. I'm not sure what I prefer now or what sound I like more? Bright and forward with great detail, or just great detail. I didn't find them laidback, like my KLHs or MLs. Just not bright and forward. I would describe them as not standing out as the RX6s, Q700 or 11s. But just as revealing. I really enjoyed these, plus I like the look and the wengé.

Sinclair Audio Brighton Series 460T - $Comparable to 716v CDN/Didn't ask specific price.

These are huge big towers! The guy was so nice and wheeled them into the soundroom so I could hear them. Firstly, these were in not so ideal placement, too close to me and way in front of all the other towers. I was so interested in hearing this tower/design. Incredible output/sound/spl. Really bright and high frequency extension. Bass loud, but that was it.

Unfortunately, there was too many things I didn't like. Maybe because of design, size, room placement etc...? This was the only tower that didn't disappear when the music played. The soundstage/imaging seemed wide and high, just not deep or detailed. It sounded squashed/compressed and meshed together. The music sounded very directional, I could tell that the sound was coming from the towers. There was an emphasis on the midbass. Not natural sounding at all. It played the low bass, but seemed to play only the upper midbass frequency during music.

I was talking to the salesman about the negatives I perceived in them, and I guess the type of music I was playing was not suited to emphasize it's positives. If I had say maybe rock songs/cds I would have enjoyed it more? Like hearing Def Leopard or the like. This tower was by far the loudest in sound output, but sounded the worst to me.


Of all the towers I've had the chance to listen too with my music, the towers that have the sound that I like and can afford are between the(all comparable overall sound/pros/cons to certain ones):

Monitor Audio RX6 - $1399 CDN
Focal Chorus 716v - $1359 CDN
Paradigm Monitor 11 v7 - $1397 CDN
KEF Q700 - $1098 CDN

What are yall opinions/suggestions? Have a great day and take care!

 

[monkish54]

Hello everyone. Got to goto 2 more audio stores for a listen! Both were well organized, sound rooms, friendly helpful sales ppl like the MA audio store. So, I did not listen to any flagship or speakers I couldn't afford/over $1500 or bookshelf, only towers. Sorry Used same 2 songs as 1st outing.

1st store had Paradigm, Dynaudio, Vienna Acoustics, Cerwin Vega.
2nd store had Focal, Def Tech, Boston Acoustics, Sinclair Audio


1st store, run on Marantz cd player, Yamaha rx820

Paradigm Monitor 9 v7 - $1097 CDN
Paradigm Monitor 11 v7 - $1397 CDN

I listened to the 9s first, then the 11s. They were both right beside each other. The 9s were really nice and bright, forward, excellent clean highs and transparency. Wide and airy soundstage too. Bass had good punch, tight and fast. I felt that the 9s lacked depth and low bass extension. It lacked low sub bass presence and punch/impact. Maybe because it's utilizing 5.5" drivers. I thought my KLHs had better lower extended bass. Overall I liked the sound of the 9s, the midrange, highs are way better my KLHs, better/comparable to my B&Ws. Low bass is slightly lacking to me. Overall they sounded nice. RX6s sounded better to me. MLs had more bass, but not better highs to me. KEFs sounded better outright overall in both highs and lows soundstage etc.

The 11s I enjoyed more. Almost on par with the RX6s. The 11s had a wider, bigger soundstage than the 9s. Way more bass impact, extension and overall sounded more full and louder than the 9s. Slightly more detail in the highs, maybe because of the soundstage/imaging. Great dynamics, maybe more bass output than RX6s, but RX6s had a tiny more airiness to them. Highs and overall I liked better than MLs. KEFs had more details in highs, bass was equally comparable, but I found KEFs harsh also. Did not find the 11s harsh. My KLHs blown out My B&Ws way less bass, comparable highs, overall sound 11s way better.

I really liked how the 11s sounded. Almost same enjoyment as the RX6s, slighty edge in detail to MAs but 11s to me had slight edge in bass output. I liked how the 11s looked, clean and simple and they come in cherry.


2nd audio store, run on Onkyo cd player, Onkyo 8050

Focal Chorus 716v wengé - $1359 CDN

Didn't have the system cranked too loud, but wow these sounded the most smooth, not forward or bright as the other speakers I like, but just as transparent, clean, detailed and extension in the highs! Bass was deep, tight and great presence. Wide and airy imaging/soundstage. Great dynamics too, altho it wasn't as loud as all the other auditions(quietest by far) it had amazing impact and presence in sound. I really liked how these sounded, without being bright and forward. I'm not sure what I prefer now or what sound I like more? Bright and forward with great detail, or just great detail. I didn't find them laidback, like my KLHs or MLs. Just not bright and forward. I would describe them as not standing out as the RX6s, Q700 or 11s. But just as revealing. I really enjoyed these, plus I like the look and the wengé.

Sinclair Audio Brighton Series 460T - $Comparable to 716v CDN/Didn't ask specific price.

These are huge big towers! The guy was so nice and wheeled them into the soundroom so I could hear them. Firstly, these were in not so ideal placement, too close to me and way in front of all the other towers. I was so interested in hearing this tower/design. Incredible output/sound/spl. Really bright and high frequency extension. Bass loud, but that was it.

Unfortunately, there was too many things I didn't like. Maybe because of design, size, room placement etc...? This was the only tower that didn't disappear when the music played. The soundstage/imaging seemed wide and high, just not deep or detailed. It sounded squashed/compressed and meshed together. The music sounded very directional, I could tell that the sound was coming from the towers. There was an emphasis on the midbass. Not natural sounding at all. It played the low bass, but seemed to play only the upper midbass frequency during music.

I was talking to the salesman about the negatives I perceived in them, and I guess the type of music I was playing was not suited to emphasize it's positives. If I had say maybe rock songs/cds I would have enjoyed it more? Like hearing Def Leopard or the like. This tower was by far the loudest in sound output, but sounded the worst to me.


Of all the towers I've had the chance to listen too with my music, the towers that have the sound that I like and can afford are between the(all comparable overall sound/pros/cons to certain ones):

Monitor Audio RX6 - $1399 CDN
Focal Chorus 716v - $1359 CDN
Paradigm Monitor 11 v7 - $1397 CDN
KEF Q700 - $1098 CDN

What are yall opinions/suggestions? Have a great day and take care!

Of those options, I'd say the Paradigm and the KEF are the best engineered designs (based on what I have seen.) Personally, I haven't really liked many of the Paradigm speakers I've heard, but this one seems to have some pretty cool engineering techniques. Of those, I'd probably choose the KEF Q700 and hope I could beg someone to design a notch filter for me to tame that breakup (That's not good advice, it's just what I would do.) ^.^

If I had to guess, I'd say the KEF had the best imaging (instrument placement) followed by the Paradigm. How good are my educated guesses?

Are you enjoying your speaker search? I should start going to HI-FI shops again. It was very fun.

Any PSB dealer in your area? The Image T6 might be worth hearing!

 

[WARMACHINE4444]

Of those options, I'd say the Paradigm and the KEF are the best engineered designs (based on what I have seen.) Personally, I haven't really liked many of the Paradigm speakers I've heard, but this one seems to have some pretty cool engineering techniques. Of those, I'd probably choose the KEF Q700 and hope I could beg someone to design a notch filter for me to tame that breakup. ^.^

If I had to guess, I'd say the KEF had the best imaging (instrument placement) followed by the Paradigm. How good are my educated guesses?

Are you enjoying your speaker search? I should start going to HI-FI shops again. It was very fun.

Any PSB dealer in your area?

Thanks Monk for your personal advice! You always add info I wouldn't get and understand lol In looking at the Paradigm website, it seems they have alot of engineering into the Monitor series. Which kinda reassures me how their line can sound comparable to the RX6s and Focal.

It's tough trying to remember which speaker I listened to had the best detail etc...all while being objective to the current audition The KEFs were quite detailed and were the most far apart of all the ones I audiotioned.

I did not look online really for PSB dealer here. Kinda just saw what the stores had. I want to hear PSB if I can. Auditioning is fun! I'm keeping it short tho. There's speakers I wanted to hear, but I don't want it to confound the one's I can afford. Vienna Acoustics, Dynaudio, Paradigm Signature, bookshelf & tower I wanted to hear, but sooo expensive.

You should, then you can describe in depth the glorious sound some of these amazing high-end/price speakers sound like for us! I feel wierd in asking to hear something that is $5000+

Cheers!

 

[monkish54]

Thanks Monk for your personal advice! You always add info I wouldn't get and understand lol In looking at the Paradigm website, it seems they have alot of engineering into the Monitor series. Which kinda reassures me how their line can sound comparable to the RX6s and Focal.

No problem.

LOL Best kind of info, I think. xD

You should, then you can describe in depth the glorious sound some of these amazing high-end/price speakers sound like for us! I feel weird in asking to hear something that is $5000+

I did too for a while. I felt like they somehow knew that I couldn't afford it and I was wasting their time. After a few demos, I realized that HI-FI stores aren't like best buy. They tend to be quiet and, for the most part, the employees are MORE THAN HAPPY to demo things for you. The only time someone was upset that I came in was Best Buy's Magnolia. When I went to listen to the Salon 2, the dealer sat behind me and listened. I knew he was busy, so I told him, "I've always wanted to hear these speakers, but there is no way in hell I can afford them, I don't want to waste your time by letting you pitch these to me, so if you want to go back to your desk, I completely understand. Also, if someone comes in wanting an audition please kick my @ss out because I don't want you to lose a sale." He let me stay for as long as I want (I stayed 2 hours) and he invited me back any time I like.

I've listened to the KEF Blade (30K), TAD Compact Reference One (40K) (sat with Andrew Jones while I listened...it was AWESOME. Although, I was so excited to meet him, I couldn't say the word "sibling". It was pretty embarrassing. ), Salon 2 (22K), KEF 207/2 (10K) and every time the dealer has invited me back knowing I couldn't afford them.

 

[zieglj01]

Of all the towers I've had the chance to listen too with my music, the towers that have the sound that I like and can afford are between the(all comparable overall sound/pros/cons to certain ones):

Monitor Audio RX6 - $1399 CDN
Focal Chorus 716v - $1359 CDN
Paradigm Monitor 11 v7 - $1397 CDN
KEF Q700 - $1098 CDN

What are yall opinions/suggestions? Have a great day and take care!

I like the Focal and Monitor Audio -
If you ever get a chance, do a door-knock test on the side
of the Monitor Audio cabinet - that is a well built cabinet.

I do not guess at imaging >> they both do a good job with
the imaging and soundstage presentation. The Focal tweeter
is really a nice one.

Continue to have fun.