If I were to upgrade my towers, which one of these is the best deal?

[monkish54]

That CSS build sounds interesting.

Thanks Gonna be very high sensitivity, very low distortion.

I love the center, but I'm also running everything through them.

Exactly why I want a mini tower. If I'm gonna build a center/surround for Multi-channel, might as well be a tower with good bass extension.

I gotta tell you, with a matching center multi-channel music is awesome. FWIW, I wasn't having any problem hearing dialogue either with only the Phils, but the center definitely helped for my situation.

I'm jealous. I have never heard multi-channel. I really want to.

Just got the new one in today

It looks amazing!!!!!!! That stand is gorgeous and VERY well laid out. Wanna trade??

 

[fuzz092888]

Thanks Gonna be very high sensitivity, very low distortion.

Always a good thing for HT.

Exactly why I want a mini tower. If I'm gonna build a center/surround for Multi-channel, might as well be a tower with good bass extension.

I wish I could have gotten another Phil 3 for a center, but space just won't allow it, plus that whole giant thing you saw in the pics

I'm jealous. I have never heard multi-channel. I really want to.

It's a must, but the speakers all have to match. Without the center I just got, multi-channel music was so~so at best. Now that I have it, it's awesome.

It looks amazing!!!!!!! That stand is gorgeous and VERY well laid out. Wanna trade??

Haha, thank you. That was a team effort between GF's Dad, GF, and myself. There are a few things I would've done differently if I could go back and do it again, but the cool part is, all of those things are still possible.

Hopefully you'll still think it's well laid out when everything is finally in there. In the near future I'll have a boxless sub as well. I'm still trying to decide whether I want to keep my AB International 800.2 to run the sub/subs or if I want to run a crown XLS 2500 instead. I guess we'll see, that's still a ways off.

Again, thank you, it was a real pain in the butt sometimes and it took forever, but the maple speakers and the maple stand look amazing together IMHO

 

[DS-21]

Of course it isn't a different issue. If ANY adjustments are being made to a signal to account for things like iPod ear buds, "certifiable fidelity" is gone.

You don't seem to understand the basic definition of high-fidelity.

It is input=output.

Presumably anybody that cares about music from those studios. The more studios B&W can give away their speakers to, the closer they come to being able to (rightly IMO) claim they ARE reference. It won't matter if you've got a speaker that measures better if the signal is calibrated for "ideal" sound on B&W.

Again, you're making an assumption that is obviously untenable to anyone who thinks clearly through issues. Just because they may have been given B&W or whatever speakers, that doesn't mean anything. Do you think major studios only have one brand of speakers?

Certainly nobody is going to mistake an Ascend CBM-170 with a Philharmonic 3 in spite of the fact that both are good examples of fine engineering***

Your assertion is without merit. I just looked up that Ascend speaker, and I cannot fathom why you made that comment. It is not competently engineered, let along a "good example of fine engineering." No speaker with a midwoofer that large and a flush-mounted tweeter is competently engineered. Indeed, you can see the midrange mushroom cloud of energy it throws into the room due to its incompetent design in Soundstage's measurements.

Obviously, a speaker that throws a mushroom cloud of midrange energy into the room is going to sound different from a competently designed one. The Phils, with a narrow midrange and low mid-tweeter crossover, are competently designed. They have even (perhaps wider than is ideal for some rooms, or some people's preferences for spaciousness vs. focus) directivity, because of the design choices made.

 

[DS-21]

Wow, seeing what you already own, I would have never guessed you are still attending college. When I was in university I thought I had one of the best sounding speakers on campus, and that was just a pair of old AR7, but it sounded as good or better than my friend's better looking KEF bookshelf, don't remember the model number but it's about the same size as my AR7. Thinking about it now I really missed those AR speakers. They are so old that I have never seen any posts about them around here. I don't expect too many people on this forum even know about them either. To me it is a shame that they are out of business as they sound really good to me, especially the clean bass that I think was really nice. ADS used to have similar design (acoustic suspension) but I think they are out of businss as well. Sorry for going off topic but I can't help reminisce a little when somone mentions college and university..

Hehe. One of my proudest audio moments was in undergrad. I was listening to Barenaked Ladies' "Rock Spectacle" in my bedroom. When I came out, one of my roommates said I had a beautiful singing voice, when in fa The system was nothing special: cheap Sony 5-disk changer (this was before the iPod), Marantz AV600 pre, Adcom GFA-535II amp driving KEF Q15's, Adcom GFA-5800 driving a JL Audio 15W6 in a closed box.

Also, I don't get why more speakers aren't closed boxes. Because of the phase shift around tuning, unless a speaker is tuned fairly low (like 35-40Hz or below) it's really hard to get good integration between vented (and TL/"tapped horn" are just a subsets of vented down low) mains and subwoofers.

(It is possible to get right, but if you're a mere mortal and not, say, Andrew Jones or Tom Danley, it's rare.)

Of course, most people don't use multiple subwoofers, so I guess integration issues are swamped by the crappy bass they're going to end up with regardless.

 

[monkish54]

Again, thank you, it was a real pain in the butt sometimes and it took forever, but the maple speakers and the maple stand look amazing together IMHO

They look Phil-omenal. They look absolutely amazing!

The Phils, with a narrow midrange and low mid-tweeter crossover, are competently designed. They have even (perhaps wider than is ideal for some rooms, or some people's preferences for spaciousness vs. focus) directivity, because of the design choices made.

On-Axis +1db/- a fraction of a db.

Off-Axis 1khz-10khz + 2-3db/ - a fraction of a db

 

[monkish54]

Just thought these resources might help in your speaker quest, my friend.

Audible Difference in Sound Level Blind Listening Test

SoundStage! Measurements - How we test loudspeakers...

 

[WARMACHINE4444]

Just thought these resources might help in your speaker quest, my friend.

Audible Difference in Sound Level Blind Listening Test

SoundStage! Measurements - How we test loudspeakers...

Thanks monk, I love reading and learning more altho sometimes I don't understand all the technical data etc.. I'm ok understanding most stuff tho lol


So I have a new idea now. Let me know if this is feasible, smart, a challenge, fun?!......

I got this idea in my mind regarding my KLHs from another person, who posted his review on the KLHs on audioreview.com

What if instead of spending $1000-1500 on new towers, if I bought/upgraded the drivers etc in my towers? The other person said he was goin to do that with his KLHs.

To me, I think that these cabinets are worth the decision to improve the drivers/crossovers. With the proper choice in drivers, etc according to my cabinets internal volume, I think it would improve their sound to me.

There is a store locally here that has the expertise to help order/determine/calculate the proper components I need.

In regards to where my KLHs are playing right now and what's powering them, to me and what I've heard in a store, they have on par the highs, soundstage, imaging, midrange of the Martin Logan Motion 40s and better bass frequency, impact/tightness than the Paradigm Monitor 9s.

I'm only considering maybe midlevel cost drivers from Vifa, Scanspeak, Peerless etc? Not Seas or other highend expensive brands. Just better crossover, woofers and metal tweeter.

I know there's a risk that even with proper/better components it might sound worse than they sound now. Will my KLHs sound as good as the $1400 towers I've heard, say with $500-800 upgraded components? I don't know. But I do like my KLHs enough to consider this. Oh and I'm soo not a DIYer like the sounds of the other reviewer on audiorevew.com lol

Am I crazy to want a suped up modded economy tower to sound like a $1000-1500 tower? I really don't need fancy finishes, latest engineering technology and maybe don't want to spend $1400 if I don't have too lol. Realistcally I'm thinking it might have improved sound to me and maybe close to performance of those class towers, if I go this route?

Please comment and thanks for everyone's opinions/advice!

 

[monkish54]

What if instead of spending $1000-1500 on new towers, if I bought/upgraded the drivers etc in my towers? The other person said he was goin to do that with his KLHs.

If you were to swap out the drivers in the KLH for new one's, you'd have to have a completely new crossover designed. This would effectively take your KLH and turn it into a KLH cabinet with WarMachine4444 "sound".

Attempting to design a crossover is no easy feat and something none of us would recommend you try (because, well, you'll fail) without quite a lot of research. You'd also need measuring equipment, as well as the knowledge needed to use it properly. I've been leaning about speaker engineering for almost a year now and I don't even want to "design" a notch filter. xD

In regards to where my KLHs are playing right now and what's powering them, to me and what I've heard in a store, they have on par the highs, soundstage, imaging, midrange of the Martin Logan Motion 40s and better bass frequency, impact/tightness than the Paradigm Monitor 9s.

You should take your KLH along and A/B them (make sure to match volume with pink noise) with the other speakers.

I'm only considering maybe midlevel cost drivers from Vifa, Scanspeak, Peerless etc? Not Seas or other highend expensive brands. Just better crossover, woofers and metal tweeter.

ScanSpeak is probably the most expensive on the list. They do make excellent drivers though.

DIY Speaker Components | Replacement Speakers | and Speaker kits from Meniscus Audio Group

I know there's a risk that even with proper/better components it might sound worse than they sound now.

a very very large risk..

There is a store locally here that has the expertise to help order/determine/calculate the proper components I need.

Instead of paying this shop to design a speaker for you (with a set box no less...) why not do one of the options below, and buy a design that is proven and tested?

Am I crazy to want a suped up modded economy tower to sound like a $1000-1500 tower?

Not at all!! I wanted speakers that sound like the $22,000 Revel Salon 2 with a budget of only $2,000. I got VERY lucky. If you want the best bang for your buck, you can do one of two thing:

A. Buy the SM1 + Marantz SR6004 because it is a great design and i'm very confident you will be happy with this system for a long time to come.

B. Buy the Marantz SR6004 and buy a DIY flatpack. There are many good designs out there. GranteedEV and myself (as well as others) can help you choose one.

Both options include a new receiver because, well, you need one. Even if you did get a new crossover and some new drivers for the KLH, the odds of the receiver being able to handle the new speaker are slim. Likewise, it defeats the purpose of upgrading your speakers when your amp is THAT poor. (Wow, never thought I'd recommend a new amp before speakers.. :O)

I really don't need fancy finishes

I agree. My Philharmonic 2's are plain black and I am more than happy with them.

I don't mean to crush your hopes, but what good is giving advice if I can't at least make you a little sad? xD

I don't blame you for wanting the most out of your money, but swapping out drivers is a good way to waste all of it...

If you think buying the M1 is risky without hearing it, just think of how risky it is to pay a store, with who knows what level of expertice, to design a completely new speaker from your existing one! At least the M1 has been tried, tested, and designed by a competent designer.

 

[gtpsuper24]

Since your still researching towers, AVS had a get together this past weekend and someone brought the Arx A5 towers to the meet. So far everyone like them quite a bit. All the comments are from non-Arx owners. A few had never even heard of Arx before the meet.

Northeast October 20th GTG Results thread

"A "laid back" and smooth type of speaker is how I'd best describe them. The ribbon tweeter has a unique sound and one that suited my own tastes, especially with vocals."

"I enjoyed what I heard from these, sound was detailed and accurate with a large soundstage, We had them corssed at 80Hz with the empires but could h have been crossed lower, very balanced and neutral. Highs were accurate and pleasing and the mids flowed well. Played loud well really glad I was able to hear them. At 750 a pair they are a great deal. Fit and finish is great."

 

[WARMACHINE4444]

If you were to swap out the drivers in the KLH for new one's, you'd have to have a completely new crossover designed. This would effectively take your KLH and turn it into a KLH cabinet with WarMachine4444 "sound".

Attempting to design a crossover is no easy feat and something none of us would recommend you try (because, well, you'll fail) without quite a lot of research. You'd also need measuring equipment, as well as the knowledge needed to use it properly. I've been leaning about speaker engineering for almost a year now and I don't even want to "design" a notch filter. xD



You should take your KLH along and A/B them (make sure to match volume with pink noise) with the other speakers.



ScanSpeak is probably the most expensive on the list. They do make excellent drivers though.

DIY Speaker Components | Replacement Speakers | and Speaker kits from Meniscus Audio Group



a very very large risk..



Instead of paying this shop to design a speaker for you (with a set box no less...) why not do one of the options below, and buy a design that is proven and tested?



Not at all!! I wanted speakers that sound like the $22,000 Revel Salon 2 with a budget of only $2,000. I got VERY lucky. If you want the best bang for your buck, you can do one of two thing:

A. Buy the SM1 + Marantz SR6004 because it is a great design and i'm very confident you will be happy with this system for a long time to come.

B. Buy the Marantz SR6004 and buy a DIY flatpack. There are many good designs out there. GranteedEV and myself (as well as others) can help you choose one.

Both options include a new receiver because, well, you need one. Even if you did get a new crossover and some new drivers for the KLH, the odds of the receiver being able to handle the new speaker are slim. Likewise, it defeats the purpose of upgrading your speakers when your amp is THAT poor. (Wow, never thought I'd recommend a new amp before speakers.. :O)



I agree. My Philharmonic 2's are plain black and I am more than happy with them.

I don't mean to crush your hopes, but what good is giving advice if I can't at least make you a little sad? xD

I don't blame you for wanting the most out of your money, but swapping out drivers is a good way to waste all of it...

If you think buying the M1 is risky without hearing it, just think of how risky it is to pay a store, with who knows what level of expertice, to design a completely new speaker from your existing one! At least the M1 has been tried, tested, and designed by a competent designer.

Lol not crushed just hopes dashed Yeah, thiele small, box volume, crossover design way too complex to warrant attempts to my KLHs You think they have pink noise disc&let me bring in my towers at Future Shop? Lol, I don't need really to a/b to know that the speakers I listened to already are a significant improvement/enjoyment in sound to me.

I have looked at the specs of my amp and you posted the THD specs of it I think, but is my panny really that bad?! It sounds very clean, dead silent and it's all digital. People called it initially a "krell killer", which i took with a grain of salt lol.

I didn't pay full retail. I bought it 2-3yrs ago NIB for about $160ish? Of course I can improve my amp and should if I buy new towers. But, I'd probably buy new towers first heh I'm not too afraid of buying the M1 unheard, maybe because I got to hear their UniQ design in person. Heck I bought my KLHs unheard based on the reviews online and was suprised how good they actually sounded! As with PSB, if I can't hear one in person, I'm pretty sure there's a good chance I'd like their sound.

Sound, sane advice is always apperciated! I rarely buy on impulse with items that, to me are a significant purchase $1000-1400 lol without all avenues explored.

Since your still researching towers, AVS had a get together this past weekend and someone brought the Arx A5 towers to the meet. So far everyone like them quite a bit. All the comments are from non-Arx owners. A few had never even heard of Arx before the meet.

Northeast October 20th GTG Results thread

"A "laid back" and smooth type of speaker is how I'd best describe them. The ribbon tweeter has a unique sound and one that suited my own tastes, especially with vocals."

"I enjoyed what I heard from these, sound was detailed and accurate with a large soundstage, We had them corssed at 80Hz with the empires but could h have been crossed lower, very balanced and neutral. Highs were accurate and pleasing and the mids flowed well. Played loud well really glad I was able to hear them. At 750 a pair they are a great deal. Fit and finish is great."

Great I am reading right now thanks sooo much! I'm still considering all brands that I might enjoy!

 

[monkish54]

You think they have pink noise disc & let me bring in my towers at Future Shop?

The dealer might have a CD or something with pink noise but i'll just send you a pink noise file that you can burn or put on a flash drive just in case. I'd be pretty surprised if they didn't let you. You can always call and ask!

I have looked at the specs of my amp...but is my panny really that bad?!

This is the rated FR for the Panny you have:

CD, TV, DVD/DVD 6CH, VCR, TAPE 10 Hz–44 kHz, ±3 dB

So even if you got a speaker that was +1/-0db you would effectively be hearing a much larger amplitude swing than that. Let's say at 1khz, 10khz, and 13khz your speaker is up 1db compared to the rest of the graph. Now let's also assume that the amp has peaks at the same frequencies but it's up 3db. So now you have a speaker with an excellent FR, but a system peak of 4db at those frequencies. No use getting a speaker with a good FR is your amp is gonna mess it up!! Obviously this is completely hypothetical and you may never have that big of a swing. It depends on the frequencies that are excited and attenuated by the amp and speakers, and by how much they are excited or attenuated. With the SR6004, you would never have a frequency excited by more than 1.25db because it's FR is +/- 0.25db, and your speaker's FR is +1/-0 db.

Use the same logic with a +/-3db speaker. Follow the link I posted and listen to how loud a 6db change in level is. :O :O

Sound, sane advice is always appreciated!

Well that's not good...'cause you wont find any of that here!!

 

[WARMACHINE4444]

The dealer might have a CD or something with pink noise but i'll just send you a pink noise file that you can burn or put on a flash drive just in case. I'd be pretty surprised if they didn't let you. You can always call and ask!



This is the rated FR for the Panny you have:



So even if you got a speaker that was +1/-0db you would effectively be hearing a much larger amplitude swing than that. Let's say at 1khz, 10khz, and 13khz your speaker is up 1db compared to the rest of the graph. Now let's also assume that the amp has peaks at the same frequencies but it's up 3db. So now you have a speaker with an excellent FR, but a system peak of 4db at those frequencies. No use getting a speaker with a good FR is your amp is gonna mess it up!! Obviously this is completely hypothetical and you may never have that big of a swing. It depends on the frequencies that are excited and attenuated by the amp and speakers, and by how much they are excited or attenuated. With the SR6004, you would never have a frequency excited by more than 1.25db because it's FR is +/- 0.25db, and your speaker's FR is +1/-0 db.

Use the same logic with a +/-3db speaker. Follow the link I posted and listen to how loud a 6db change in level is. :O :O



Well that's not good...'cause you wont find any of that here!!

As always monk thank you for an enlightening explanation and links! I wouldn't have a clue what that specific spec on my amp means. I do understand that it is not good to have at all such a variance that affects what would be a great speaker running off of it.

Lol good cause I plan on having a UFC speaker shootout everyday like ADTG some day too!

 

[monkish54]

Wonder what WARMACHINE4444 ended up doing?

 

[WARMACHINE4444]

Wonder what WARMACHINE4444 ended up doing?

Hey Monk/All,

just been crazy at work etc haven't had time to audition lately. Altho my friend who just got married, met one of his friends who works at Creative Audio store where I audtioned the Monitor Audio RX6s. Sweet eh so I got an in

So we got talking bout my price range/speakers I auditioned.....and they just got in/are the only B&W dealer now! Being a fan, I'm planning on going in for a listen. They don't have all models, just 683, CM9s and I think 802. They are a smaller store, so they can order anything in tho.

Just gota make time to hear them. If they don't amaze me, I can't see buying the 683 cuz its $1800CDN. But I am a B&W fan still lol RX6, Monitor11 etc are more affordable. Cheers!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Hey Monk/All,

just been crazy at work etc haven't had time to audition lately. Altho my friend who just got married, met one of his friends who works at Creative Audio store where I audtioned the Monitor Audio RX6s. Sweet eh so I got an in

So we got talking bout my price range/speakers I auditioned.....and they just got in/are the only B&W dealer now! Being a fan, I'm planning on going in for a listen. They don't have all models, just 683, CM9s and I think 802. They are a smaller store, so they can order anything in tho.

Just gota make time to hear them. If they don't amaze me, I can't see buying the 683 cuz its $1800CDN. But I am a B&W fan still lol RX6, Monitor11 etc are more affordable. Cheers!

If your friend of a friend can hook you up with a 30% off discount, that would be sweet.