If Buckeye Nut can do it, so can I

[Tomorrow]

Ironic, isn't it, that the largest debtor nation gives out more foreign aid than any other country in the world ? That we are still expected to take the lead in resolving any issues of significance ? That our stock market twitters and every place else cringes ? That someone like Connie Chung could get a job instead of be executed ? Ever see Stalin and Kruschev get together to raise money for tsunami victims ?

We may have some problems. We still dress like tourists and butcher the hell out of the French language, and yes we did invent the AMC Pacer, but I'll still take it. At least we aren't killing our own people because they have the wrong variant of our religion or come from the wrong tribe.

As for Neil Young, well, I do believe it's been said that "A southern man don't need him around, anyhow..."

And it seems like no one did the "Teach.....your children well..." thing.

Your wisdom will fall on many deaf ears, Leprkon. But MDS is maybe correct as well. I too fear that the U.S. has become a service economy shadow of its former self. We outsource everything...just like the Romans before their fall. Our young grow eager for flash over substance, movies over books, Britney over Hawking. That there is this huge drop in education testing abilities of the young today is a sorrowful thing that spells much trouble for our future. You can see evidence of the Dumbing of America right here in front of us.

 

[avaserfi]

And it seems like no one did the "Teach.....your children well..." thing.

Your wisdom will fall on many deaf ears, Leprkon. But MDS is maybe correct as well. I too fear that the U.S. has become a service economy shadow of its former self. We outsource everything...just like the Romans before their fall. Our young grow eager for flash over substance, movies over books, Britney over Hawking.

I think the only thing that MDS was actually wrong about is the time frame. I don't think the downfall will be during our lifespan but close too it. The only reason I say this is because we may be outsourcing much work but at the same time we still have quiet a few of the best and brightest coming from around the world to work in important industry areas such as engineering and research. Also, we are reasonably stable economically and with proper leadership in the near future (doesn't matter what party as long as they are moderate and reasonable) this stability can be ensured.

The flash over substance thing is more a parenting problem than anything else. We have more and more parents letting their children forgo activities that require thought for sitting in front of a television playing games or watching movies because its easier than an argument. Also, our education system needs a huge overhaul where children stop being taught to pointless standardized tests and learn useful information and techniques. Right now the educational system is based on memorizing vast amounts of facts not learning how to do anything and that is a huge problem.

edit: Just remembered another thing to rant about with parenting. Lately parents have been relying more and more on the government for intervention rather than themselves. People have less and less time to deal with their children and their problems due to work or some other reason. Parenting has been taking a back seat to the rest of life and many people don't see a problem with this yet complain when children go to their schools with guns or start taking drugs at younger ages, but do not want to do anything about it. People want the answer without having to work for it.

 

[darien87]

Wow.

My little smart-*** thread has actually morphed into a decent little debate, with lots of good points being made on all fronts.

Thanks to everyone who has posted.

 

[avaserfi]

Wow.

My little smart-*** thread has actually morphed into a decent little debate, with lots of good points being made on all fronts.

Thanks to everyone who has posted.

Thats what happens when one side of the debate doesn't stifle all argument by being completely blinded by their own views .

 

[Tomorrow]

I think the only thing that MDS was actually wrong about is the time frame. I don't think the downfall will be during our lifespan but close too it. The only reason I say this is because we may be outsourcing much work but at the same time we still have quiet a few of the best and brightest coming from around the world to work in important industry areas such as engineering and research. Also, we are reasonably stable economically and with proper leadership in the near future (doesn't matter what party as long as they are moderate and reasonable) this stability can be ensured.
.

The same was true of the Roman Empire. All men of wisdom and learning went to Rome, the "center of civilization and science".

The U.S. - Rome analogy carries through to one particularly area of concern for me. Rome grew so rich and complacent (and "liberal" in modern terms in many ways) that they no longer had the spirit for the wars and defending their empire. Rome hired a professional army (like ours). They lowered the standards of military eligibility (like ours). They even included soldiers who had been immigrants (like ours). This army was stretched quite thin in the defense of the empire and motivation was lacking for many reasons. The Great Roman Empire fell to hoards of uneducated, under-armed, violent rabble because of the internal decay of a once fabulous civilization.

Note that there was violence well before the Roman conquests...during the Roman conquests...and precipitating the fall of Rome. And guess what. We still have violence all around us. Those that do not accept war as part and parcel of civilization are doomed to lose their interests. Ironic, isn't it?

I still agree with MDS...I think we're in the midst of the back-end of the internal decay and moral rotting. Could a strong, wise, and benevolent leader delay the inevitable? Most assuredly yes. Do we have one of those to elect to the presidency or see one on the horizon. Absolutely not. Not any of them. Follow the money...not the strength/wisdom/benevolence of an individual to see who gets elected. George Bush has a 30% approval rating. Horrendous, isn't it? Yep...until you know that Congress has a 23% approval rating! There's our leadership. Slowly...slowly...counterclockwise... circling the drain.

 

[avaserfi]

Tomorrow, I have to agree with you 100 percent on the war situation. As people get more educated they truly do have less interest in war which will always be a part of civilization. I think the only difference between now and then in that respect is we have better means to keep war off the able longer/completely in some cases with a better communications infrastructures. These infrastructures are also why we have a better chance at staying a nation longer. The ability to communicate instantly and figure out what is wrong and where the problem is allows us to get our best minds on a fix ASAP rather than having the lag of a messenger. While this could be why our civilization has lasted as long as it has and we have reached our breaking point, well I am not sure but it certainly is a possibility.

Another problem that is to blame is the extreme division in the country which allows for one side to fix problems as they see fit then the polar opposite side gains power and tries to fix the problems that they see created. With each side breaking bonds and little work actually being made...politics is rather disgusting well more the politicians.

 

[Tomorrow]

Tomorrow, I have to agree with you 100 percent on the war situation. As people get more educated they truly do have less interest in war which will always be a part of civilization. I think the only difference between now and then in that respect is we have better means to keep war off the able longer/completely in some cases with a better communications infrastructures. These infrastructures are also why we have a better chance at staying a nation longer. The ability to communicate instantly and figure out what is wrong and where the problem is allows us to get our best minds on a fix ASAP rather than having the lag of a messenger. While this could be why our civilization has lasted as long as it has and we have reached our breaking point, well I am not sure but it certainly is a possibility.

Another problem that is to blame is the extreme division in the country which allows for one side to fix problems as they see fit then the polar opposite side gains power and tries to fix the problems that they see created. With each side breaking bonds and little work actually being made...politics is rather disgusting well more the politicians.

Nicely stated, avaserfi!

I worry though about the very technology you suggest may save us. It may only be a short-term fix. "Think Tanks" and men of wisdom have long debated the final, global destiny of any grouping of human-type lifeforms. It was an important issue in the debate over extra-terrestrial life...namely, can a civilization actually survive its own technology and proceed to advance to interstellar travel. Because of global environmental stresses, advanced destructive capabilities, and psycho-social-cultural conflicts, the answer was almost unanymously "NO".

Sorry to be so negative here. It must come with old age.

 

[avaserfi]

Nicely stated, avaserfi!

I worry though about the very technology you suggest may save us. It may only be a short-term fix. "Think Tanks" and men of wisdom have long debated the final, global destiny of any grouping of human-type lifeforms. It was an important issue in the debate over extra-terrestrial life...namely, can a civilization actually survive its own technology and proceed to advance to interstellar travel. Because of global environmental stresses, advanced destructive capabilities, and psycho-social-cultural conflicts, the answer was almost unanymously "NO".

Sorry to be so negative here. It must come with old age.

I was alluding to the same fact, that our technology will only prolong the inevitable to possibly beyond our life time. It is a very interesting subject unfortunately I hope we are both very wrong but the general "dumbing down" of America as I see it will prove us very right .

Either way it has been a great discussion and I thank you...Chicklets to you!

 

[zhimbo]

it was implied that Clinton was responsible for the economic prosperity in the 90s...

Not my point at all. "Clinton era" is simply the time. No President is solely responsible for either the good or the bad economic indicators during their term.

 

[zhimbo]

Al Gore I think....makes sense he claims to have invented it and well if you've seen him speak....

Al Gore has NEVER claimed to have invented the internet:

http://www.snopes.com/quotes/internet.asp

 

[avaserfi]

Al Gore has NEVER claimed to have invented the internet:

http://www.snopes.com/quotes/internet.asp

I apologize next time I will word things more carefully to avoid arguments over semantics...if you looked at the joke it alluded to who claimed to invent the internet. I should have put because there is a common misconception of Al Gore having claimed to invent the internet. That better?

 

[zhimbo]

I apologize next time I will word things more carefully to avoid arguments over semantics...if you looked at the joke it alluded to who claimed to invent the internet. I should have put because there is a common misconception of Al Gore having claimed to invent the internet. That better?

Yep. People still strongly believe that crap.

 

[avaserfi]

Yep. People still strongly believe that crap.

That because the comics took the joke and ran with it, sometimes I still hear it. On Sunday night I was watching a show called Lil Bush on Adult Swim and they made a joke about it there.

 

[Tomorrow]

Al Gore has NEVER claimed to have invented the internet:

http://www.snopes.com/quotes/internet.asp

"I took the initiative in creating the internet." Al Gore, 3/9/99

The point is he was trying to take credit for its existence.

Whatever.

 

[Leprkon]

The flash over substance thing is more a parenting problem than anything else.

I am willing to take a beating for GB1 and the whole "no child left behind". This has undoubtedly created a much worse monster than the poor hurt feelings of some underachiever who had to repeat 7th grade.

Parents who refuse to discipline their children and then sue schools that do are simply beyond my comprehension.

 

[zhimbo]

"I took the initiative in creating the internet." Al Gore, 3/9/99

The point is he was trying to take credit for its existence.

Whatever.

Read the Snopes. I have nothing to add, it says it all well.

 

[avaserfi]

I am willing to take a beating for GB1 and the whole "no child left behind". This has undoubtedly created a much worse monster than the poor hurt feelings of some underachiever who had to repeat 7th grade.

Parents who refuse to discipline their children and then sue schools that do are simply beyond my comprehension.

I grew up in Texas schools, luckily one of the few good ones though. I saw what GB schooling plans did. We spent all our time learning to pass the tests we had to take at the end of the year. The only time this was deviated upon was if you made it to an AP class then you were taught how to think not how to remember, but there was still quiet a bit of teaching to the tests it was just a different one.

We need to take a hint from Japanese schools they really do have good reason to look down on American students as they actually learn in school we are just filled with facts and equations.

 

[MDS]

I've heard a lot about the new approach of teaching to a test and I agree that's not the best approach. However, a certain level of standards is important.

Facts and equations are great to know as well but if you can't apply those facts and equations to solve real-world problems then you won't get too far in a demanding career. Now this is no doubt an extremely rare case but I once worked with a guy with a Ph.D that was absolutely useless - couldn't under any circumstance see how theory could be applied to solve the problem at hand; in other words, he didn't know what he knew. Needless to say he left the company when none of the managers wanted to pick him up for their team when his current assignment ended.

 

[avaserfi]

I've heard a lot about the new approach of teaching to a test and I agree that's not the best approach. However, a certain level of standards is important.

Of course there should be standards but setting the standards incredibly low so programs like no child left behind "work" is pointless. While it is easier said then done there are people making their livings writing these tests and they must learn that regurgitation is not useful in real life and their becomes a point when schooling is more than that and that point should not be college (even though it doesn't seem like people have learned that at this point either).

That Phd example you gave is perfect for the situation and I know many more people like that. Booksmarts aren't useful without the ability to apply them.

 

[Tomorrow]

Read the Snopes. I have nothing to add, it says it all well.

Perhaps you should re-read it and my post. What I said, with greater brevity, is exactly what it says.

Zhimbo do you just argue for argument's sake? I believe you've attacked other's "reading comprehension skills" in the past. Look inward.