P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
But that is always a problem on these forums, sooner or later the most vocal develop a pack mentality & take it upon themselves to convert newbies to think like the pack or try to chase off others who are outside the pack. And don't want to be part of the pack. And that's just sad!

I'm out on this particular thread. There is enough info on here for the OP to make up his own mind now!
Ms. Frizz, I always value your opinion as I know you based your opinion on real experience of your own. I hope you don't get frustrated when faced with opposing opinions. No doubt you are only trying to help when the OP asked in his first post #1 as follow.

"I have a Denon 3808ci and I am thinking of adding a power amp for more power I want a least 200 watt ch I have infinity Kappa speakers That need a lot of power I like it loud I watch a lot of consert DVDs"

However, please also realize that others (the 'most vocal':)) are also trying to help when the OP asked in his follow up post#3 as follow.

"also will this have a better sound than my denon or about the same"

After that, everyone seemed anxious to express their opinion based on their own experience. And of course we know what happened next. In other threads, you have previously reported that you heard differences (major improvements if I understood correctly) when you added an amp and more differences when you upgraded to the Sunfire and a prepro, while others thought well designed amps should not have its own sound and power won't affect the sound if the power just sits there, unless that extra power is actually put to use. The non believers also cited blind test results while the believers said they went by their ears rather than specs, lab tests and blind listening tests.

All in all, I really don't see anything wrong for people from each camp to express themselves freely; and any clashes in words occasionally are expected as people started to get passionate about what they believe. For many forum members including me, this is more like a hobby than anything else, as such there is probably no right or wrong. I used the term Placebo a few times, but Placebo effect can be as good as real too.
 
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J

jamie2112

Banned
About time I have some help in that arena:D

Maybe he should have said it that it was better for him because it cost mucho dineros:D and the economy;) keeping those folks employed.:D
I thought cfrizz was a woman??? and yes I agree with the pack. Can I join can I can I...
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
You're a 100% right on, don't let these clowns get to you. A $500.-- Amp vs. $15000.-- and no difference. I guess they all hang out a BB. They never heard good equipment. Seems like all they know is Denon_Onkyo-Polk and Klipsch which is worth about 10 cents on a Dollar.
Them Sunfire amps on your signature kick, these guys can't even comprehent High Powerd amps. It' just sonic heaven isn't it. It's like driving a VW or a Ferrari they'll get you there, Yeah
No difference at all. I can tell a major difference when I change my Amps around from 200 watts to 350 watts major difference belive me. That's why we spend the money.
Clown? How so? Because we have a different answer for you? So then, I suppose you call everyone a clown if they have different answers than you think you have? Unfortunate turn of events.

As to amp sound and audible differences, well, that is in fact a testable event, really.
Have you ever properly compared such amps? I mean properly, bias controlled, levels matched, operating within design specs, and was able to guess the right answer in a statistically significant manner?
If not, then you are just speculating as to outcomes, very simple.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
A whole lot! Receivers don't put out the same kind of power (and tests have PROVEN THAT FACT!) !
I may have brought this up before but it is a good refresher.
I see you live in Boston.:D

There is an audio club there called Boston Audio Society. You should look into them and attend a few meetings and talk to some famous audio folks and ask if you can be part of a proper amp comparison test.:D
Next meeting today:eek: missed it

http://www.bostonaudiosociety.org/
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
I thought cfrizz was a woman??? and yes I agree with the pack. Can I join can I can I...
Don't know the first but the second is an exclusive club. Can you be a real hard A$$? Ask the right questions? ;):D No dues but the entry test is tough:D
 
bandphan

bandphan

Banned
i like the pretty blue light behind the Glass face plate on mine, and do not care what it cost;) in fact ive replaced the glass for more than some amps cost :eek: do i think that there is great Value out there , hell yes. However having lasted 29 plus years i fell i have some Value also.
 
Z

zumbo

Audioholic Spartan
i like the pretty blue light behind the Glass face plate on mine, and do not care what it cost;) in fact ive replaced the glass for more than some amps cost :eek: do i think that there is great Value out there , hell yes. However having lasted 29 plus years i fell i have some Value also.
Resale value.:D
That's a fact.;)
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
Then they must be more like a class H. What confused me was this quote from the Yamaha website. "Class-AB sound quality, response and power with class-D efficiency. Exclusive Yamaha EEEngine (patented) technology delivers unprecedented performance in a range of stereo, multi-channel, and high-impedance amplifier models."
May be similar to Carver's cube amp, about 7" cube, weighs almost nothing and about 250 watts per
 
bandphan

bandphan

Banned
Ill say it again ... If you are on a budget get the most bang for your buck, if not get anything you want. ID be out of work if it didnt go that way;)
 
F

fmw

Audioholic Ninja
Was that an offer to Frizz also or he took you up on it? Outcome?

It is just my offer to put my money where my mouth is. I offer to travel to the subjective believer's location and conduct a bias controlled listening test that they participate in. All that is required is a significant wager which covers my travel, time and some profit. A mutually acceptable third party judges the outcome of the test. Winner takes all. They never take me up on it. They'd be nuts to take me up on it since I've been through it all before and can't really lose. But if they think they can hold on to their bias-driven sonic differences in a bias controlled test, they are welcome to try. I can always use more money for Christmas.
 
OttoMatic

OttoMatic

Senior Audioholic
OK, OK, so I know all the arguments. I've never participated in a DBT, but I might like to do something like that in my own home. I would like to compare two systems, and I would like to be able to rather instantly switch between the two. Suppose two systems:

DMP-BD30-> old Denon 170x receiver->Vandersteen
DMP-BD30->Cary Cinema 11->Sunfine Cinema Grand->Vandersteen

So we'll basically be comparing DACs, preamps and amps all in one shot. Those are all things that are generally considered to sound the same, assuming that they're all competently engineered, and operating within their limits, right?

I want to create a speaker cable switch that I can control from my chair. I can use relays, or I could run the speaker wires all the way to the chair and use a mechanical switch (yeah, relays are mechanical, but I'm talking something like a big blade switch that I would physically operate).

I can level match.

I can have my wife do the hookup of the cables so that I won't know what's what. She won't hang around, and she couldn't care less about which is which, as long as she hooks them up correctly.

I can do the math for the statistics, but I'll be happy to hear opinions from the people here on how many trials will be needed.

From there, what do I need to do to ensure that I have a proper test? I don't have any desire to cheat, or to have my more expensive gear come out the "winner". I also don't want to be accused of doing something wrong in the event that I can statistically differentiate the two.

Thanks.
 
OttoMatic

OttoMatic

Senior Audioholic
I'll bring the beer, and my Adcom 7605.
Lots of beer.

Gonna have to hit the hay, but I'm game.
MidnightSensi said:
B O O M its on!@#!
Yeah, if you guys have any plans to be in the Denver/front range area, we could set this up.

I'm all ears for other opinions on protocols. I have ideas of how to do it, but I need input from here so that my results could be respected.

Thanks!
 
F

fmw

Audioholic Ninja
OK, OK, so I know all the arguments. I've never participated in a DBT, but I might like to do something like that in my own home. I would like to compare two systems, and I would like to be able to rather instantly switch between the two. Suppose two systems:

DMP-BD30-> old Denon 170x receiver->Vandersteen
DMP-BD30->Cary Cinema 11->Sunfine Cinema Grand->Vandersteen

So we'll basically be comparing DACs, preamps and amps all in one shot. Those are all things that are generally considered to sound the same, assuming that they're all competently engineered, and operating within their limits, right?

I want to create a speaker cable switch that I can control from my chair. I can use relays, or I could run the speaker wires all the way to the chair and use a mechanical switch (yeah, relays are mechanical, but I'm talking something like a big blade switch that I would physically operate).

I can level match.

I can have my wife do the hookup of the cables so that I won't know what's what. She won't hang around, and she couldn't care less about which is which, as long as she hooks them up correctly.

I can do the math for the statistics, but I'll be happy to hear opinions from the people here on how many trials will be needed.

From there, what do I need to do to ensure that I have a proper test? I don't have any desire to cheat, or to have my more expensive gear come out the "winner". I also don't want to be accused of doing something wrong in the event that I can statistically differentiate the two.

Thanks.
Excellent. Since your wife is willing to help, I can make it fairly simple. Here are some guidlines you need to follow in order to get a valid test.

1. Level matching needs to be done with a voltmeter and levels should be matched to within .1 volts.

2. If you can build a switch box or comparator, that's great. If not, just shield your wife and your equipment from your vision and let her unplug and plug cables based on a random series. Remember, you need to level match every time whether you have a switchbox or not unless your switchbox is a comparator with its own volume control. I recommend you use a test tone from a CD for the level matching and then switch it to the music for the listening test. This needs to be done every iteration.

3. play exactly the same input material for exactly the same amount of time for each iteration.

4. Play it at normal listening level so that neither unit is approaching a clipping level.

5. Make sure your wife has the ramdomly developed series of iterations and you don't, assuming you are the listener.

6. Be sure she unplugs the cables and replugs them the same way each time. If the random series calls for there to be no change in the units, she still needs to go through the routine so that you aren't tipped off that the same unit playing this iteration.

7. Have her ask you whether you are listening to A or B. She should score right or wrong on the score sheet. Then you can tally the rights and wrongs for the statistics.

8. Do at least 10 iterations - 20 is better.

If you can get through all that, you will be able to say with authority that your results are valid. Enjoy the test and, please, post the results.
 
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