I am sure you all know that feeling...

[abefroeman]

Congrats on your new speakers. A word of warning! Beware! One of my best buddies bought a pair of MS bookshelf's about 7 years ago. He wanted something modest that sounded good.
He now has Maggy 3.6R's with custom external crossovers, tubed CDP, custom transmission line sub woofer and other goodies.

Haha, it is a slippery slope. I was tempted to go all out with 2 additional pairs of Mordaunt Short 912 bookshelf speakers (they have the 6.5" woofers) and a used Outlaw audio receiver off of ebay.

I will get the lead shot. I have easy access as my dad loads his own shotgun shells. (everyone’s got a hobby)

 

[j_garcia]

My friend does also. Gun shops are one of the few places to find it these days.

 

[abefroeman]

One thing I found ironic is that no one picked up on my screen name. I am a voracious forum participant of all different types. And I always use the same user name. Every new forum I go to, I get comments.

I think its funny that on a forum about home theater, no one has ever heard about Abe Froeman, the sausage king of Chicago.

 

[abefroeman]

Come on!

Ferris bueller's day off!

where is the love.

 

[j_garcia]

I recognized it, but couldn't place it...LOL.

 

[WmAx]

I might try that peel and seal stuff though. or somthing similar. I was too excited to remember to do the knock test over lunch. I will knock on them tonight and see how dead they are.

I am a little nervous about taking them apart to put that stuff on the inner walls. Are speakers easy to disassemble?

In order to have an optimal effect on the overall cabinet panel resonance(s), the damping has to be applied in a manner that has both an efficient and direct effect on a large portion of those panels, whether through brute force application in large amounts over large areas, or by careful strategic application. I can not see how having sand in just the bottom portion of the cabinet can fulfill either one.

Do as Jaxvon recommended(Peel N' Seal in many multiple layers on all internal walls), and in addition, you probably want to remove the internal acoustic stuffing material, and replace it with a material that works better(overwhelmingly, most manufacturers use acoustic damping with sub-optimal effect) such as 8lb/ft^3 mineral wool board.

If you have trouble finding the high density mineral wool board, I can send some to you for raw material cost + actual shipping.

-Chris

 

[abefroeman]

I think the goal of ballast is directed more toward augmenting the use of speaker spikes than deadening the cabinets. Think about getting in a pool with a dinner plate and then holding with both hands against your chest and pushing it away from you and pulling it toward you. Spikes and added weight are supposed to reduce this motion. This is the theory anyway.

I have no idea as to whether or not it actually improves the bass extention or improves bass respose as it is claimed to do. I will find out i guess.

 

[WmAx]

I have no idea as to whether or not it actually improves the bass extention or improves bass respose as it is claimed to do. I will find out i guess.

The thing(s) that a spike can [really] accomplish: (1) physically stabilize the enclosure to the floor [and] (2) potentially increase the energy transmitted to the floor, and if the floor is a resonant wood one, the result may be [audible] added coloration [and] (3) change the height/position of the speaker[which may result in a different sound].

-Chris

 

[abefroeman]

alright, some places I read tell me that it is for cabinet dampening and others say it is related to the physics that I explained above, what gives?

 

[WmAx]

alright, some places I read tell me that it is for cabinet dampening and others say it is related to the physics that I explained above, what gives?

What gives is this is marketing B.S. 101. I explained the actual [practical] results that can be achieved from such. The sand poured in the bottom helping to remove 2 percent(as a high-ball example) overall of the vibrational amplitude in the cabinet panels is not a substantial result that has a practical benefit. Want real results? Try what I suggested in a prior reply. I have done these modifications, and positively double blind tested the results. So has Jaxvon, though in a more limited capacity.

-Chris

 

[j_garcia]

The sand adds weight in this case, nothing more.

 

[abefroeman]

damn marketing people, always trying to confuse people.

I will look to other threads for more info, cuz I remember it being talked about a lot. I think it might be worth a shot, does anyone know how to take off the woofers?

 

[Swerd]

... does anyone know how to take off the woofers?

Lay the cabinet flat on it's back.

Remove the screws holding the woofer to the front baffle. Be careful not to slip and poke your screwdriver through the cone.

While holding the woofer at the rim, tilt the cabinet so it comes out.

There will be two wires attached to tabs that should, more or less, resemble the attached picture. Pay attention to which color wire goes to the PLUS tab and which goes to the MINUS tab. Detach them.

Assemble in the reverse order. Don't over tighten the screws.

 

[abboudc]

What gives is this is marketing B.S. 101. I explained the actual [practical] results that can be achieved from such. The sand poured in the bottom helping to remove 2 percent(as a high-ball example) overall of the vibrational amplitude in the cabinet panels is not a substantial result that has a practical benefit.

Do you have any data that shows this? Some of the most respected speaker brands suggest lead and or sand fill in their cabinets and/or stands. If they were going to do "BS-Marketing", they could probably find better ways to do it than add another compartment to their speakers and have their customers put lead or sand in the bottom.

Most of the sites i've read suggest that the sand/lead/other dampening material isn't meant to stiffen every internal wall of the speaker or reduce vibration amplitude, but to give the overall cabinet more mass and weight, making it less susceptible to vibration. It seems to me that the intended impact is to plant the speaker firmly on the floor and minimize the vibration between the bottom of the speaker and the floor. Unless i'm missing something...(which i wouldn't mind at all if someone pointed out...i'm here to learn )

 

[abefroeman]

Sweet, thanks.

The NAD 7155 came today. Ebay is a great invention. It sounds great and plays louder than I need it to. It does crackle a bit when changing the volume, but I will make a new thread about that.

The peel and seal mod sounds interesting, so does the "stuffing" mod. I will do these after the break in period, and after I listen to these speakers a bit.

Thanks for all the help guys.

 

[jaxvon]

Do you have any data that shows this? Some of the most respected speaker brands suggest lead and or sand fill in their cabinets and/or stands. If they were going to do "BS-Marketing", they could probably find better ways to do it than add another compartment to their speakers and have their customers put lead or sand in the bottom.

Most of the sites i've read suggest that the sand/lead/other dampening material isn't meant to stiffen every internal wall of the speaker or reduce vibration amplitude, but to give the overall cabinet more mass and weight, making it less susceptible to vibration. It seems to me that the intended impact is to plant the speaker firmly on the floor and minimize the vibration between the bottom of the speaker and the floor. Unless i'm missing something...(which i wouldn't mind at all if someone pointed out...i'm here to learn )

It's still BS. A lot of companies do this to get the end user involved. It's easy and cheap for them to add such a modification, because most of the effort and cost is on YOUR end. In addition, when a customer does a tweak that is supposed to improve the sound, they will expect a change, so even something that doesn't really affect the sound will yield a positive reaction. It's amazing what bias can do to perceptions.

Regarding the intended impact, the added weight will help the speaker couple to the floor more effectively (as will spikes), but this will increase the vibration transmitted to the floor from the speaker. Ideally, you want the exact opposite: isolation from the floor. Vibrations in the floor cause sound coloration that are a detriment to the sound.

If you think you want to do the Peel 'N Seal and mineral wool mod, be warned that you WILL lose some bass extension and some efficiency. The mod decreases the effective volume of the cabinet and also attenuates the sound somewhat. However, to me, the gains from the mods far outweigh the costs. I personally noticed much less coloration in the midrange, specifically vocals.

Regarding the crackling issue: it may be an issue with the potentiometer in the volume control. When they collect dust over the years that happens. My dad has an old Yamaha CR-1020 that has the exact issue. A thorough cleaning (at an electronics shop if you're not brave enough to open it up) should fix the issue.

 

[WorldLeader]

One thing I found ironic is that no one picked up on my screen name. I am a voracious forum participant of all different types. And I always use the same user name. Every new forum I go to, I get comments.

People usually ask me if I am Jesus, or Bush or Steve Jobs... go figure. I am a world leader if you must ask..

 

[WmAx]

Do you have any data that shows this? Some of the most respected speaker brands suggest lead and or sand fill in their cabinets and/or stands. If they were going to do "BS-Marketing", they could probably find better ways to do it than add another compartment to their speakers and have their customers put lead or sand in the bottom.

No, I don't have data relating specifically to this. It would make zero sense for me to do the set-up and measurement of a lead shot or sand filled bottom. Regardless of the dampening material used, that particular scenario does not provide for sufficient coupling to the main panels in order to have an appreciable effect. The only panel upon which a substantial effect would be realized, is the bottom, upon which material is resting upon, assuming a sufficiently large mass is used.

If you want an effective method of substantially reducing the panel resonances, do as Jaxvon suggested earlier.

-Chris

 

[abefroeman]

Some of the most respected speaker brands suggest lead and or sand fill in their cabinets and/or stands.

on the av123 website they report that the Onix X-SLS tower, based on the x-ls will have a mass loading cabinet. They are a no BS company.

Regarding the intended impact, the added weight will help the speaker couple to the floor more effectively (as will spikes), but this will increase the vibration transmitted to the floor from the speaker. Ideally, you want the exact opposite: isolation from the floor. Vibrations in the floor cause sound coloration that are a detriment to the sound.

Are you saying spikes are BS too? there are a lot more speakers out there that have spikes than mass loadable cabinets.

There has to be data for this somewhere.

sounds like its time for a double blind test!

 

[jaxvon]

on the av123 website they report that the Onix X-SLS tower, based on the x-ls will have a mass loading cabinet. They are a no BS company.

Are you saying spikes are BS too? there are a lot more speakers out there that have spikes than mass loadable cabinets.

There has to be data for this somewhere.

sounds like its time for a double blind test!

Yes, I am saying spikes are BS, at least for what they claim. They definitely do couple your speaker to the floor effectively. So if you have issues with your speakers moving around or critters tipping them over, spikes are great. But they will not improve sound quality.

As for AV123 being a no BS company (AV123 is the manufacturer/purveyor of Onix), I'm not so sure. Expensive tube amps, expensive D/A converters, and other products and literature I've seen on their site leads me to believe that they are tweak-oriented (and by tweak, I mean snake oil). That's not to say that some of their products aren't good, but a lot of the stuff I see on their website is classic snake oil and audio myth. Take information on AV123 with a grain of salt. Hell, you should be reading my posts critically, too. After all, I'm just some dude on an internet forum .

Here are some products and claims I find quite dubious:

http://www.av123.com/products_product.php?section=processors&product=60.1
http://www.av123.com/products_product.php?section=processors&product=47.1
http://www.av123.com/products_product.php?section=processors&product=26.1
http://www.av123.com/products_product.php?section=processors&product=1.1
http://www.av123.com/products_product.php?section=speakers&product=67.1

The Iso feet for electronics and the PS Audio Noise Harvester are particularly awesome for snake oil content.