HSU VTF-15H Subwoofer Review

sholling

sholling

Audioholic Ninja
PBC your post couldn't be MORE TRUE. Very refreshing and I am glad some of our readers get it! Thank you!
It's less "get it" than different tastes. As I stated those that are exclusively interested in > 30hz bass slam and above 30hz quality and willing to depend on often iffy room gain are flocking to sealed subs like Epik. That leaves the vented sub market to those of us that apparently "don't get it" and want solid impact across the entire spectrum or slightly beyond for HT while still maximizing quality for music. Many action movies have material below the limits of human hearing yet add ambiance and impact to the movie. On top of that some electronic music goes to the lower limits of human hearing - not my taste but someone is buying it. Different strokes but if Dr Hsu chooses to "get it" and walk away from that end of the market (other than the ULS-15) then SVS and eD will make a killing serving it. That's the beauty of the free market. :D

FWIW Hsu is also one of the few that insists that a 0/180 two-position switch is all that's required for phase adjustment on a $1000 sub. I like Dr. Hsu and love his subs but there are certain things that are check box features when buying site unseen/unheard over the internet.
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
Hi Mr Paul

...why you "left" HSU?

Thanks
I do not remember where this topic was addressed, but the impression I had was that Paul worked for the driver company which was contracted by Hsu to provide (at least some of) the drivers for Hsu. I did not get the idea that Paul ever worked directly for Hsu.

Edit:
You can see his "resume" here and see reference to OEM products for Hsu Research while he was Chief Engineer at AMERICAN-SPEAKER/GROUND-ZERO:
http://www.linkedin.com/in/paulapollonio
 
R

Ron Temple

Senior Audioholic
I'm not sure what you're asking, but I'll give it a go. Also, not sure which graph/setting this was done in...

Horizontal scale = hz
Vertical scale = dbs (though not relative to output totals, just relative to each sweep)

The bottom red line represents the lowest input signal to the amp and the optimum curve in that setting, measuring the 14sec sweep. Each colored line above represents an increase in signal until the sub doesn't get any louder as both the amp and driver are run to their limits.

You'll note that the red line starts rolling off just north of 30hz and when the sweep reaches 20hz the output has dropped approx 10dbs. With each increase the curve stays fairly linear until the sub is approaching max output. As it does, the rolloff point recedes as amp/driver are being pushed to clip.

I think this is what you're asking...and that's my layman's understanding. I don't know what "0" on the right side of the scale you're referring to.
 
Last edited:
S

Sputter

Junior Audioholic
Thanks Ron, super.

Jim


I'm not sure what you're asking, but I'll give it a go. Also, not sure which graph/setting this was done in...

Horizontal scale = hz
Vertical scale = dbs (though not relavite to output totals, just relative to each sweep)

The bottom red line represents the lowest input signal to the amp and the optimum curve in that setting, measuring the 14sec sweep. Each colored line above represents an increase in signal until the sub doesn't get any louder as both the amp and driver are run to their limits.

You'll note that the red line starts rolling off just north of 30hz and when the sweep reaches 20hz the output has dropped approx 10dbs. With each increase the curve stays fairly linear until the sub is approaching max output. As it does, the rolloff point recedes as amp/driver are being pushed to clip.

I think this is what you're asking...and that's my layman's understanding. I don't know what "0" on the right side of the scale you're referring to.
 
C

cantonguy

Junior Audioholic
From Paul's review regarding the graph:



Bottom line is you are seeing an artifact from the limiter circuit, not driver bottoming. The circuit can be defeated but Paul did not defeat it in his test.
Does this mean I should leave the limiter off? Do I risk damaging my sub? Right now I always leave the limiter on and rumble filter off. I still have not figured out, in stupid people terms, exactly how these things are related. If they are even related at all.
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
It's less "get it" than different tastes. As I stated those that are exclusively interested in > 30hz bass slam and above 30hz quality and willing to depend on often iffy room gain are flocking to sealed subs like Epik. That leaves the vented sub market to those of us that apparently "don't get it" and want solid impact across the entire spectrum or slightly beyond for HT while still maximizing quality for music. Many action movies have material below the limits of human hearing yet add ambiance and impact to the movie. On top of that some electronic music goes to the lower limits of human hearing - not my taste but someone is buying it. Different strokes but if Dr Hsu chooses to "get it" and walk away from that end of the market (other than the ULS-15) then SVS and eD will make a killing serving it. That's the beauty of the free market. :D

FWIW Hsu is also one of the few that insists that a 0/180 two-position switch is all that's required for phase adjustment on a $1000 sub. I like Dr. Hsu and love his subs but there are certain things that are check box features when buying site unseen/unheard over the internet.
One could argue that SVS is pulling away from that market as well with the focus on their sealed subs. But I don't think chasing 10 hz is making anyone a killing to be honest, the subwoofers just have to be too large or too numerous for that to be an acceptable option for most people.

By the way, I believe that Audyssey and the other room correction software adjusts the subs phaze anyway, which makes that switch almost redundant in many circumstances.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Does this mean I should leave the limiter off? Do I risk damaging my sub? Right now I always leave the limiter on and rumble filter off. I still have not figured out, in stupid people terms, exactly how these things are related. If they are even related at all.
We seem to have misunderstanding here.

This is the EQ 2 position, both ports opened, recommended by Dr Hsu.



Now the EQ 2 position has the high pass filter second order roll off at 30 Hz. The EQ 1 position does not have the filter.

This from Paul's review.

Before proceding we felt it necessary to point out that the HSU VTF-15H has two switch positions on the amplifier back panel called "EQ 1" and "EQ 2", respectively. EQ 1 essentially runs the sub fullrange while "EQ2" employs a 30Hz second order HPF filter for better mechanical protection of the subwoofer driver. HSU recommends running "EQ"2 with both ports open for maximum output while they recommend running the sub in EQ1 for 1 or both ports plugged for maximum extension mode. In this report, we test both positions and show their respective tradeoffs associated.
Now note in the above graph before roll off, there is a hump. I think that Paul is correct and from the driver exceeding linear excursion and the voice coil starting to leave the gap.

So why the filter. We have been over this ground many times before. Once the driver frequency drops below the roll off frequency in a ported enclosure, the driver decouples from the box. You get large cone excursions and little to no sound produced. If you power the driver below that point, yes, you will damage it. So that is why you want to use EQ 2 with both ports open.

Now note there is smooth roll off below 30 Hz at all levels below over drive, with good performance above 30 Hz.

Now lets look at the extended bass alignment. One port closed, which will lower the box tuning frequency. It uses EQ 1, no high pass filter at 30 Hz.



What we see is reduced output above 30 Hz, and the roll of frequency has moved up a few Hz. What is gained is a shallower roll off between 20 and 30 Hz, but the driver exceeds mechanical limits and makes a frightful racket below 20 Hz, as you can see in hash on the graph in that region.

So the trade off was not worth it, and for the vast majority of drivers it is not worth it. An extended bass alignment versus an optimal alignment is not a good idea for most drivers, especially cheaper ones.

So now lets look at the sealed, both ports plugged. This graph shows sealed alignment and one port open. Both alignments are shown with Q control at 0.7 and 0.3.



Roll off starts at 100 Hz but now the enclosure is sealed roll off is second order at 12 db per octave. Note there is no port reinforcement so output is lower than both ports open EQ 2.

Now a sealed enclosure could have bass boost applied, but the driver has to have the excursion available and the power handling. From the above graphs, I doubt that driver would have the spare excursion.

So this is a nice demonstration of how sacrificing spl for bass extension is not worth it. It also shows that a sealed sub needs a very formidable driver and lots of amp power.

However you cut it, getting any speaker with high spl to and below 20 Hz is a formidable and costly affair.

I would say for all but very expensive reference systems the cost is not justified. The money would be much better spent improving performance above 80 Hz, which for most systems is nowhere near optimal, or in far too many cases not even acceptable.

I don't thin there is anything to gain debating this further. Either you get it or you don't.
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
TLS guy, nice explanation, but we were talking about the Rythmik sub, not the VTF.
 
C

cantonguy

Junior Audioholic
Well I'm not! I don't see where the subject changed.
Sorry for the confusion. I know this is an HSU thread, but I saw his post and thought I might as well question it here since there seem to be a lot of knowledgeable people following this thread.

Can you address my question too?
 
sholling

sholling

Audioholic Ninja
One could argue that SVS is pulling away from that market as well with the focus on their sealed subs. But I don't think chasing 10 hz is making anyone a killing to be honest, the subwoofers just have to be too large or too numerous for that to be an acceptable option for most people.
They've just gone back to small footprint cylinder subs for HT subs.

Right now WAF friendly tiny subs are "in". Heck I'd have quad ULS-15s (15-200hz ±1.5db and usable output to 10hz) if I could afford them.

By the way, I believe that Audyssey and the other room correction software adjusts the subs phaze anyway, which makes that switch almost redundant in many circumstances.
That's what Pete at Hsu says but on a $1000 sub it's a check off item and handy one when setting up multiple subs.
 
Last edited:
C

cantonguy

Junior Audioholic
They've just gone back to small footprint cylinder subs for HT subs.

Right now WAF friendly tiny subs are "in".
Funny you say this as I read just the opposite on AVS. Someone was talking about how sub preference is cyclical. They went on to say how it use to be small footprint subs and now the biggest subwoofers a person could fit. I'll see if I can find where I saw that at. I don't know what the answer is as I took 7 years off from this hobby as a poor college student.
 
T

TitanFan

Audiophyte
I just finished reading all 24 pages of this forum. I really appreciate everyone's contribution, and I've gained a lot of respect for Audioholics for doing such a detailed and thorough job on this review and taking the time to answer questions on this forum.

I have a question regarding using the EQ2 setting on the amp with one port plugged. The HSU manual refers to this as "Max Headroom Mode", and this setting should be used "for those with medium-to-large room sizes who listen at high playback levels and want the deepest bass extension." Based on that description, would this setting have produced better results (i.e. deeper base extension) than using EQ1 with one port plugged? What's the trade-off in using EQ1 .vs. EQ2 with one port plugged?
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
I just finished reading all 24 pages of this forum. I really appreciate everyone's contribution, and I've gained a lot of respect for Audioholics for doing such a detailed and thorough job on this review and taking the time to answer questions on this forum.

I have a question regarding using the EQ2 setting on the amp with one port plugged. The HSU manual refers to this as "Max Headroom Mode", and this setting should be used "for those with medium-to-large room sizes who listen at high playback levels and want the deepest bass extension." Based on that description, would this setting have produced better results (i.e. deeper base extension) than using EQ1 with one port plugged? What's the trade-off in using EQ1 .vs. EQ2 with one port plugged?
No less. There is a filter rolling the sub off at 30 Hz and the output is already falling above 30 Hz with reduced output because of the lowered tuning. So I don't see how that would produce deeper bass extension.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Sorry for the confusion. I know this is an HSU thread, but I saw his post and thought I might as well question it here since there seem to be a lot of knowledgeable people following this thread.

Can you address my question too?
He did not measure it with the limiter off, likely because he did not want to destroy the sub under test. A reviewer has to return the test item to the manufacturer in good condition.

Since it was not measured with the compressor/limiter off I can't comment on what the curves might have looked like.

Common sense tells me that if play the sub softly without the limiter you will be OK, but if you push it, you probably will be looking for a new sub pretty quick.

Unfortunately the attack and release times of the compressor appear to produce a definite audible artifact. This is a common problem with compressors and that type of artifact really bugs me.

I'm just not a lover of sealed subs. I don't care how good a driver you make, its going to get pushed hard and stressed. As I've said many times before, you only have the driver to radiate sound energy. A loudspeaker cone is a lousy coupler to the air in the bass frequencies and the deeper the bass the poorer it couples. This also applies to IBs

So an acoustic transformer is required, to control cone motion in reasonable bounds and couple the driver to the space. To couple to the space over an octave plus requires a TL or horn.

If you really want an effective sub and a musical one it requires a pipe (TL) or horn and to hell with the size.
 
Paul_Apollonio

Paul_Apollonio

Audioholic Intern
Squiggly Lines = Rythmik Bottoming out?

Dear Shady,

The short answer to your question is I don't recall for sure. As for the uppermost curve, I do recall for sure. I would think I would remember if the sub were bottoming, as that is a critical flaw; however...LONG ANSWER BELOW.....

I took another look at my data. I do not believe the Rythmik sub bottomed, in fact, I was able to get it to perform at 16 Hz (107.7 db) better than any other sub. My belief is what was happening was the compressor was slow to respond to an overload signal, but had a quick release which is why you notice the jaggedness of the Clio curve starting at about 80 Hz. The sweep is 14 seconds, so the compressor decides after a period of time to reduce the input voltage, then, a fraction of a second later, to let it go again. The output goes up, then the compressor takes over again. The jaggedness you see on the uppermost curve is the result of a compressor which releases the gain reduction even when the input voltage remains too high. This is what I would consider a rookie error, surprising given the fact that Brian Ding holds a PHD in Electrical Engineering. Perhaps audio engineering is not quite as simple as Brian had hoped it would be to master. Nothing ever is.... I am sure Rythmik will point out that this test signal is not music, and with music his circuit works ok. Maybe so, but I sure heard some odd going ons with this sub, and I had it at home for a week. The volume would just seem to JUMP UP for no reason in particular, making me run over to turn it down. This might be caused by the same circuit phenomena, but not being privy to the internals, that is just a guess. --- Mr Paul
 
C

cantonguy

Junior Audioholic
Dear Shady,
This is what I would consider a rookie error, surprising given the fact that Brian Ding holds a PHD in Electrical Engineering. Perhaps audio engineering is not quite as simple as Brian had hoped it would be to master.
This comes off as a shot at Brian, correct me if I'm wrong. Your review of the Rythmik sub seemed more positive than any of the other subs, so this issue must not be a deal killer? If the issue is not there in real world use with music and home theater, what's the problem?

Maybe I missed it, but do the other subs have limiters?
 
newsletter

  • RBHsound.com
  • BlueJeansCable.com
  • SVS Sound Subwoofers
  • Experience the Martin Logan Montis
Top