HSU VTF-15H Subwoofer Review

[Pyrrho]

What is very clear to me here is that consumers claim they want critical product reviews that give full disclosure of performance. I think some consumers want this until they actually own the product. Once they own said product, they instead want a warm and fuzzy review focusing on product positives to reassure them their product purchasing decision was the right one.

Heck I own a 2007 Acura TL Type S. I really like the car. I read many negatives about the car (large turn circle, front wheel drive, etc). I kinda glossed over the negatives when I bought the car but I never questioned the integrity of the reviews. Years later of using my car, I realize my wifes mini-van is easier to park and make u-turns than my car Yet, I still really like my car and appreciate the criticism that was written in the various reviews.

I think you are right, that some people want warm fuzzy reviews. I personally want to know the flaws in my gear (there is nothing that is perfect, no matter how great it is, so there will always be honest and accurate negative things to be said about anything one has), and then I can decide whether they are sufficient reason to replace what I have or not. I would love to see more information about some of the gear I own, but since the gear I own is now virtually all discontinued products, it is unlikely that any new reviews will appear.

I accept the fact that I will probably never own the greatest subwoofers that money can buy, and that is because I am unwilling (and probably unable) to pay for that. I also don't need the best ever made, and can be happy with something that is just really good.

For the money, the Hsu VTF-15H seems like a fine subwoofer. If it is not good enough for someone, they need to come up with the money for something better (or find something used that is better, or have the ability to make something better themselves). But complaining about reviews of its performance isn't going to make it better than it is.

 

[KEW]

But complaining about reviews of its performance isn't going to make it better than it is.

As bizarre as it sounds, I think it is a matter of desperate denial.
It really seems to me like the detractors are trying to convince themselves that there is a hidden agenda and the measurements are wrong. If they can manage to believe that Paul has some type of personal vendetta against Hsu, then they can believe their sub performs at some better-than-measured level which is critical to their "subwoofer status".
Apparently the as measured specs. don't meet that "need", although everyone who bought one of these seems to have been delighted with it!

What is it about subwoofers?

 

[TLS Guy]

What is it about subwoofers?

It's like men and girls, when they think with their wrong head!

 

[MinusTheBear]

As bizarre as it sounds, I think it is a matter of desperate denial.
It really seems to me like the detractors are trying to convince themselves that there is a hidden agenda and the measurements are wrong. If they can manage to believe that Paul has some type of personal vendetta against Hsu, then they can believe their sub performs at some better-than-measured level which is critical to their "subwoofer status".
Apparently the as measured specs. don't meet that "need", although everyone who bought one of these seems to have been delighted with it!

What is it about subwoofers?

This is just the nature of human beings. The irony in all this is AH is actually doing a public service for consumers and its owners by

1. Educating consumers about the product.

2. Bringing to the forefront areas where manufacturers can improve products and hopefully bring such improvements to the market.

..but of course there are individuals that are to wrapped up in their own conflicting thoughts (bias) ($$$$$$$) which clouds their reality in making rational responses.

Here is a quote by username PBC which really hits this issue home. I love this.

"Sometimes a company's best advocates are it's own customers, and sometimes a company's worst advocates are it's own customers. This thread is unfortunately showcasing the latter."

But its not their fault . They have Freud to blame (read on).

http://tip.psychology.org/festinge.html

 

[billy p]

Some guy(aka runnin) over at Avs called me a hypocrite for showing support towards audioholics and because I called him Hsu fanboy. He made things clear to me he didn't own Hsu products...but I just found out he's buying the vtf12v. What I find most puzzling is how they(Hsu) are building up the cough cough unbiased S&V review and those done by the 2 gents on their own accord(which was very good...btw) and placing Pauls review on a fact finding mission. I'd never buy one of their products don't care how well they are regarded as a budget best buy...sorry Hsu.

 

[Sputter]

Can anyone take a few mins and explain what i'm looking at here?
eg. what's 0 reference on the right side of the chart? Stuff of that nature.


http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speakers/subwoofers/hsu-vtf-15h-supplemental/09.06am_bothportsopen_portsbottom_1M_800by600.gif/image_view_fullscreen

 

[Paul_Apollonio]

Reasons for Review Practice

The problem I have with this review is the tester uses the product at the highest available tuning point and then complains about extension?! That is absurd, especially since later on in the review he goes on to guess that the product does have solid bass below 20 hz. But in the introductory bullet points, he says "limited output below 25 hz".

Another problem is the reviewer says the adjustable Q had no effect on sound, even though he seemed to have only used the sub in one tuning mode the entire time. In this case, it really fair to slam the Q control? That is like reviewing a car but only ever driving it in first gear!

I appreciate the reviewer had limited time, but more exploration of the product would definitely have been helpful given how highly anticipated this review was.

Dear Shady,

Sorry for disappointing you on the first review. The reason the Q control made little effect is because it is not covering the mathematical range predicted (only about half that) and that I played it near clip so where the most effect is had, is not noticeable in a large room while it is trying to keep up with my tops (which are 97 db sensitive). The reason for single mode testing is because with an infinitely variable EQ, a two position switch, and the option of plugging the port (or both or neither), the combinations all produce different results. All the messing about (so to speak) is done while listening, but the CEA testing only as per one set of settings which is chosen NOT by the reviewer, but by the entrant. (In this case Dr. Hsu) EVERY shootout entrant gets "one bite at the apple". You likely don't get up mid song to plug the ports when the 16Hz organ pedal is coming do you? I don't. As the follow up review showed, plugging the port gives a very modest boost at 20 Hz while hurting you everywhere else. The "operating mode" switch when placed in the EQ1 position, also allowed the driver to bottom with signals below 20 Hz which might eventually wind up in the sub destroying itself. Not a good compromise in my view. Thanks for your readership and frank opinion. Sincerely, Mr Paul

 

[Paul_Apollonio]

Thick Skin

Everyone has a finite tolerance for stupid people. Paul's tolerance probably exceeds mine.

I think I am already on record as having a low tolerance for stupidity. However, this is not the issue.

The issue is one of honest marketing vs dishonest marketing. My tolerance for dishonesty is zero.

It has been said "it takes many kinds to make a world". True, and there are many whom we could do without. Topping my list are the dishonest and the disingenuous.

Peace to you all. - Mr Paul

 

[GranteedEV]

I'm honestly getting sick of talking about HSU. clearly they've made a sub which performs rather well given its price point but on to the next one, all about progression, loiterers should be arrested.

 

[shadyJ]

Dear Shady,

Sorry for disappointing you on the first review. The reason the Q control made little effect is because it is not covering the mathematical range predicted (only about half that) and that I played it near clip so where the most effect is had, is not noticeable in a large room while it is trying to keep up with my tops (which are 97 db sensitive). The reason for single mode testing is because with an infinitely variable EQ, a two position switch, and the option of plugging the port (or both or neither), the combinations all produce different results. All the messing about (so to speak) is done while listening, but the CEA testing only as per one set of settings which is chosen NOT by the reviewer, but by the entrant. (In this case Dr. Hsu) EVERY shootout entrant gets "one bite at the apple". You likely don't get up mid song to plug the ports when the 16Hz organ pedal is coming do you? I don't. As the follow up review showed, plugging the port gives a very modest boost at 20 Hz while hurting you everywhere else. The "operating mode" switch when placed in the EQ1 position, also allowed the driver to bottom with signals below 20 Hz which might eventually wind up in the sub destroying itself. Not a good compromise in my view. Thanks for your readership and frank opinion. Sincerely, Mr Paul

Yes, my initial complaints were definitely addressed by the supplemental. Thanks for putting in the time to do that. I was surprised how little effect port plug tuning had, because on the other VTF models, the variable tuning made a much greater difference. The 16 hz organ pedal is so rarely used that I wouldn't worry about that scenario too much. In fact, the only instance I have ever heard it was in Hsu's own demo disc that they sometimes send with the subwoofers. I would be more worried about the sub 20 hz material in certain movies, such as the War of the Worlds.

I have a question though, the bottoming out seen on the supplemental review graph resembles the graph on the Rythmik FV15HP (I'm talking about those squigly lines below 20 hz), was the Rythmik sub bottoming out too? If so, it wasn't mentioned in the review. Ethan and Adam's sub shootout mentions their Rythmik bottoming out though. Would you say its safe to run the Rythmik sub at the edge of its capability? (Not that I would ever need that much output) Thanks, and I am looking forward to the Funkywaves review.

 

[sholling]

First thanks to Paul for the education I've picked up reading this thread. It's been very interesting.

I've heard the VTF-15 and it's a good sounding sub. Probably not my next sub, but a good sounding sub. Hopefully Dr Hsu will reevaluate his design criteria to better match the market place and his competition and take more seriously the desire for deeper bass. Those who have $800-1000 and don't care about super strong 20hz output are buying $1000 sealed subs like the Epik Empire and those with $800-1000 who are demand 20hz with impact like great vented subs naively tuned to 20hz with no ports plugged. It's really too bad that eD didn't enter their reasonably priced A5-350 I'd really love to see how it fares compared to both the VTF-15 and the FV-15HP.

 

[Tdekany]

Hi Mr Paul

Was that the reason why you "left" HSU?

Thanks

I think I am already on record as having a low tolerance for stupidity. However, this is not the issue.

The issue is one of honest marketing vs dishonest marketing. My tolerance for dishonesty is zero.

It has been said "it takes many kinds to make a world". True, and there are many whom we could do without. Topping my list are the dishonest and the disingenuous.

Peace to you all. - Mr Paul

 

[pbc]

First thanks to Paul for the education I've picked up reading this thread. It's been very interesting.

I've heard the VTF-15 and it's a good sounding sub. Probably not my next sub, but a good sounding sub. Hopefully Dr Hsu will reevaluate his design criteria to better match the market place and his competition and take more seriously the desire for deeper bass. Those who have $800-1000 and don't care about super strong 20hz output are buying $1000 sealed subs like the Epik Empire and those with $800-1000 who are demand 20hz with impact like great vented subs naively tuned to 20hz with no ports plugged. It's really too bad that eD didn't enter their reasonably priced A5-350 I'd really love to see how it fares compared to both the VTF-15 and the FV-15HP.

Actually, they are simply doing what the market place is doing, which appears to be coming out with more and more "pro-type" woofers that hit hard above 30hz or so and rely on loads of room gain and EQ for output below that.

A full 180 from what was happening several years ago when SVS/Epik/HSU, etc etc were pushing for more and more LFE at the expense of "mid-bass" and people had to spend more (i.e., buy several subs) to get the headroom they wanted if their rooms were large.

Further, the new CEA2010 standard gets abused as people simply look at the peak numbers and ignore the very important FR sweeps and compression graphs. Hey, look, my woofer can hit 110db at 20hz, oh, and look, 140db at 40hz and above! Woohoo!

 

[gdsk39a]

Which Companies Dropped out of the Shoot Out

Is it possible to get a list of the companies that pulled out of the shootout? Only need who pulled out not why they pulled out.

Cool?

 

[MinusTheBear]

Is it possible to get a list of the companies that pulled out of the shootout? Only need who pulled out not why they pulled out.

Cool?

Earthquake, Axiom Audio, RBH and Salk Sound are the most notable ones.

 

[gdsk39a]

Earthquake, Axiom Audio, RBH and Salk Sound are the most notable ones.

Great!

 

[MinusTheBear]

Great!

Whats so great about that?

 

[gene]

Earthquake, Axiom Audio, RBH and Salk Sound are the most notable ones.

RBH pulled out b/c Paul found an issue with their woofer which was a prototype driver. They fixed it since then and are submitting us a new sample sometime soon. BTW Paul's measurements were in dead agreement with RBH's, when RBH received the sub back. Yet a 3rd company confirming the accuracy of Paul's measurements...

Axiom was never in the shootout officially. They did NOT want distortion of their sub objectively measured and felt the only accurate way to measure their sub was on a 90ft pole. They also don't like to participate in shootouts. After seeing the reaction to the HSU sub review, I can't say I don't blame them.

Salk had design issues with their sub and I believe they are either going to come out with a new model or discontinue the current model.

I asked Klipsch NOT to participate in the shootout b/c the model they were sending us was way outclassed by the competition. They were still willing to do it however. Speaks volumes about them.

PSB/Paradigm respectively reclined. JL Audio, and Velodyne didn't respond to my request to participate. Seeing how JL Audio and Velodyne high output subs are way higher in price than the others in our shootout, I can understand that.

 

[gene]

Actually, they are simply doing what the market place is doing, which appears to be coming out with more and more "pro-type" woofers that hit hard above 30hz or so and rely on loads of room gain and EQ for output below that.

A full 180 from what was happening several years ago when SVS/Epik/HSU, etc etc were pushing for more and more LFE at the expense of "mid-bass" and people had to spend more (i.e., buy several subs) to get the headroom they wanted if their rooms were large.

Further, the new CEA2010 standard gets abused as people simply look at the peak numbers and ignore the very important FR sweeps and compression graphs. Hey, look, my woofer can hit 110db at 20hz, oh, and look, 140db at 40hz and above! Woohoo!

PBC your post couldn't be MORE TRUE. Very refreshing and I am glad some of our readers get it! Thank you!

 

[gene]

I have a question though, the bottoming out seen on the supplemental review graph resembles the graph on the Rythmik FV15HP (I'm talking about those squigly lines below 20 hz), was the Rythmik sub bottoming out too? If so, it wasn't mentioned in the review. Ethan and Adam's sub shootout mentions their Rythmik bottoming out though. Would you say its safe to run the Rythmik sub at the edge of its capability? (Not that I would ever need that much output) Thanks, and I am looking forward to the Funkywaves review.

From Paul's review regarding the graph:

The Rythmik sub was unique in one way during the compression testing vs frequency. As you can see from the curve above, at the highest output level (the gray curve, as this sweep, 14 seconds long from 400 Hz to 10 Hz) triggered the sensor or compressor about the time we hit 80 Hz. As the signal continued to sweep lower, in a very short period of time, the compression released, allowing the signal to peak again right at about 60 Hz, and then before it got down to 50 Hz, the compressor becomes active again. This happens AGAIN at about 32 Hz, and as you can see as the sweep runs lower, the compressor releases and then returns several times in quick succession. Now it could be argued that music does not have any sweeping tones that range across more than a decade (400 to 40 Hz is one decade) and last 14 seconds in length. They would be quite correct. However, I cannot help but relate this to instances where I was listening to music and the output seemed to suddenly jump out as if the volume control was being rotated without any help from my fingers. I would suggest that the use of a longer hold time or integration time be considered based not so much on the signal sweep test shown above, but on my own sense that the sub seemed to go from too quiet, to just too loud all on its own frequently during its operation.

As we can clearly see from the curves above, frequency response is NOT independent of level, and if the system is pushed hard enough, it will roll off below 30 Hz, yet at lower power outputs, is certainly flat down to 20 Hz. (Red curve) at the bottom.

Editorial Note about the Limiter Feature of the FV15HP Subwoofer

The limiter in FV15HP is defeatable. However, I had chosen to test the subwoofer with limiter ON. The curves with limiter off should be smoother and without this short hold time issue I noted. As for this hold time duration issue, it is a design trade-off. Shorter hold time can recover fast and provides more output over the same period of time. On the other hand, my preference is to have longer hold time duration as I stated above. I tested the H600PEQ amplifier with my review unit which engaged the limiter with the power switch set to "auto". Since that time, the amp has been updated to the H600PEQ2 model with a discrete on/off switch for the limiter.

Bottom line is you are seeing an artifact from the limiter circuit, not driver bottoming. The circuit can be defeated but Paul did not defeat it in his test.