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Matthew J Poes

Matthew J Poes

Senior Audioholic
Where is Epson made?


Small nit, Nixon actually opened relations with China. MFN status was granted I believe under Bush....

ps I was thinking of permanent MFN status under Bush, it was under Reagan it was conditionally granted....
Nixon was what I meant to type. Thank you for the correction.
 
Bucknekked

Bucknekked

Audioholic Field Marshall
I wonder if the Epsonfan poster who sorta got us on this wonderfully sidetracked post has ever travelled to China?
If you've had the pleasure and privilege of travelling to China you can get a snaphot of a country that is radically different than ours. I say its a pleasure because it is a wonderfully interesting place to see. Its also a privilege because its been a sovereign nation longer than just about any other place on earth.

I won't give a travelogue here, but having had a glimpse inside the tech industry within China, if anything, @Matthew J Poes is soft pedaling their abilities. And it isn't just manufacturing muscle, they have a completely different mindset because they have a completely different workforce and populace than we do. From soup to nuts they do everything differently because their entire society is different.

One of the outcomes is the ability to manufacture a part or product at whatever level of quality the market wants. If it just needs to be cheap chinese sparklers, well, they will be cheap and they will sparkle. If it needs to be ISO 9001 certified and built to the highest standards in the world, they can do that too. They will also do it at a cost and delivery schedule nobody else can match.

The Chinese (unlike any other socialist or communist nation) are traders and love the value of the deal. They understand markets. They allow their populace to buy, sell, manufacture and trade. Their government is communist, but their economy and commerce structure encourages private ownership and market based economics. Their economy succeeds largely not because of some dominance of the Communist central planners but rather in spite of them.

Its a fascinating place with fascinating stories. So different than here in the U.S. its hard to grasp it.
 
Matthew J Poes

Matthew J Poes

Senior Audioholic
I wonder if the Epsonfan poster who sorta got us on this wonderfully sidetracked post has ever travelled to China?
If you've had the pleasure and privilege of travelling to China you can get a snaphot of a country that is radically different than ours. I say its a pleasure because it is a wonderfully interesting place to see. Its also a privilege because its been a sovereign nation longer than just about any other place on earth.

I won't give a travelogue here, but having had a glimpse inside the tech industry within China, if anything, @Matthew J Poes is soft pedaling their abilities. And it isn't just manufacturing muscle, they have a completely different mindset because they have a completely different workforce and populace than we do. From soup to nuts they do everything differently because their entire society is different.

One of the outcomes is the ability to manufacture a part or product at whatever level of quality the market wants. If it just needs to be cheap chinese sparklers, well, they will be cheap and they will sparkle. If it needs to be ISO 9001 certified and built to the highest standards in the world, they can do that too. They will also do it at a cost and delivery schedule nobody else can match.

The Chinese (unlike any other socialist or communist nation) are traders and love the value of the deal. They understand markets. They allow their populace to buy, sell, manufacture and trade. Their government is communist, but their economy and commerce structure encourages private ownership and market based economics. Their economy succeeds largely not because of some dominance of the Communist central planners but rather in spite of them.

Its a fascinating place with fascinating stories. So different than here in the U.S. its hard to grasp it.
I think we need no more evidence for that than to look at the jewel like quality and precision of modern iPhones or top of the line Samsung phones. All made in China and made to a quality level and precision that is unbelievable.

they do speaker cabinets like nobody I’ve seen. The painted finishes are so perfect it is unreal. Many I’ve seen I assumed were not true painted finish. It seemed too good. Part of what I like about some of the small American companies is that the finishes are imperfect and it gives it a kind of hand made charm. But reality is that isn’t a good thing. Making them perfect is better.

HSU speakers have such a good seamless finish I had originally assumed it was vinyl. It was only at AXPONA that I learned the finishes I thought were vinyl were clear Coated wood.

a lot of that is culture, but more of it is infrastructure. We set that up for them originally. When we moved speaker cabinet manufacturing to them, we brought our methods and equipment. They again ran with it, perfecting it. They increased scale by offering the service to any customer. Most speaker companies couldn’t afford a state of the art spray booth. But a factory dedicated to cabinets for dozens of companies can justify a huge one. I saw a picture of the PSB spray booth once and it had a ton of speakers hanging it what looked like a giant downdraft booth. It was state of the art as far as speakers go. I’ve seen others that aren’t far off of how cars are painted. Fully robotic.
 
Matthew J Poes

Matthew J Poes

Senior Audioholic
I need to take a break. My mouth hurts so much
I’m sure I’m speaking to a wall. Those who agree with what I say already did. Those who don’t will never.

when Gene and I did the tariff video we got reamed.I still think we were misunderstood.

For example, I don’t think most people realize that the way the tariffs were structured rewarded Chinese companies and those American companies who fully manufactured goods in China. A finished product had a lower tariff than parts. So companies like Emotiva or ATI who manufacture some of their products in America using Chinese made parts and modules paid higher tariffs than a company that fully manufactured a completed good in China. S.M.S.L. felt less pain than our American based companies. That seems counterproductive.

those companies that were expected to move manufacturing to America were rewarded for moving it fully to China or another country like Vietnam. Attempting to manufacture any amount of it in America led to the worst possible tariff scenario.

Gene and I weren’t trying to be political. We were simply stating facts as we understood them and raising concerns.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Audioholic Slumlord
I’m sure I’m speaking to a wall. Those who agree with what I say already did. Those who don’t will never.

when Gene and I did the tariff video we got reamed.I still think we were misunderstood.

For example, I don’t think most people realize that the way the tariffs were structured rewarded Chinese companies and those American companies who fully manufactured goods in China. A finished product had a lower tariff than parts. So companies like Emotiva or ATI who manufacture some of their products in America using Chinese made parts and modules paid higher tariffs than a company that fully manufactured a completed good in China. S.M.S.L. felt less pain than our American based companies. That seems counterproductive.

those companies that were expected to move manufacturing to America were rewarded for moving it fully to China or another country like Vietnam. Attempting to manufacture any amount of it in America led to the worst possible tariff scenario.

Gene and I weren’t trying to be political. We were simply stating facts as we understood them and raising concerns.
I may have been misunderstood with that post of mine. I am laughing so hard with all the funny posts that it hurts. :D
Nothing was directed at you. Love your posts.
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Spartan
I wonder if the Epsonfan poster who sorta got us on this wonderfully sidetracked post has ever travelled to China?
If you've had the pleasure and privilege of travelling to China you can get a snaphot of a country that is radically different than ours. I say its a pleasure because it is a wonderfully interesting place to see. Its also a privilege because its been a sovereign nation longer than just about any other place on earth.

I won't give a travelogue here, but having had a glimpse inside the tech industry within China, if anything, @Matthew J Poes is soft pedaling their abilities. And it isn't just manufacturing muscle, they have a completely different mindset because they have a completely different workforce and populace than we do. From soup to nuts they do everything differently because their entire society is different.

One of the outcomes is the ability to manufacture a part or product at whatever level of quality the market wants. If it just needs to be cheap chinese sparklers, well, they will be cheap and they will sparkle. If it needs to be ISO 9001 certified and built to the highest standards in the world, they can do that too. They will also do it at a cost and delivery schedule nobody else can match.

The Chinese (unlike any other socialist or communist nation) are traders and love the value of the deal. They understand markets. They allow their populace to buy, sell, manufacture and trade. Their government is communist, but their economy and commerce structure encourages private ownership and market based economics. Their economy succeeds largely not because of some dominance of the Communist central planners but rather in spite of them.

Its a fascinating place with fascinating stories. So different than here in the U.S. its hard to grasp it.
Hey buck, I liked this a lot. While I’ve never been to China. I have been to Japan. It was an amazing experience, and definitely hard to translate into English. I really enjoyed how all people there seemed to have a general respect for each other. I knew I was home as soon as I landed in the airport at home.
 
Bucknekked

Bucknekked

Audioholic Field Marshall
Hey buck, I liked this a lot. While I’ve never been to China. I have been to Japan. It was an amazing experience, and definitely hard to translate into English. I really enjoyed how all people there seemed to have a general respect for each other. I knew I was home as soon as I landed in the airport at home.
I know just about enough from my visits to China and other AESEAN countries to know that I actually don't know beans about them. I can describe simple things and I can read others. But, the cultural differences are profound. What I don't know far outweighs the little snapshots I have in my head. I think we would all be better off if as part of our education we all were given the opportunity to visit several countries unlike our own.

I love the country of my birth and raising. I think the mistake far too many people make is not realizing people in other countries feel the same way.
 
Matthew J Poes

Matthew J Poes

Senior Audioholic
I know just about enough from my visits to China and other AESEAN countries to know that I actually don't know beans about them. I can describe simple things and I can read others. But, the cultural differences are profound. What I don't know far outweighs the little snapshots I have in my head. I think we would all be better off if as part of our education we all were given the opportunity to visit several countries unlike our own.

I love the country of my birth and raising. I think the mistake far too many people make is not realizing people in other countries feel the same way.
I haven't been to China yet, it is on my list of places to visit. I've been invited to tour some of the factories before, but if I'm going to China for a vacation, I think touring factories will be low on my priority list. Maybe if they cover the costs of the trip and pay my time, haha. My wife has been, she loved it.

I went to graduate school with three people from China and my lead graduate professor was from South Korea. She ran a Korean Students social group and so I also had a bunch of her students on my research projects. It was obvious that both countries had very different social cultures, food norms, you name it. I learned a lot just being around them. In fact, my two best friends that were from China were from a part of China that eats very spicy food. They took my to a more authentic restaurant for their style of food, and I couldn't eat any of it. My teacher also took me out for Korean food quite a bit, and her idea of comfort food just about killed me. I love trying new foods, but Oh man do they like it spicy.

Anyway, when they told me about their home life, it was pretty shocking. Very different. Both of my good friends were relatively affluent Chinese. Their parents both owned manufacturing facilities. The schools in those cities were not good, so they lived with their relatives in bigger cities to go to better schools. That was the norm. The distances were not small either. China is about the same as the United States in total land mass. They were living about 500-1000 miles away from their parents and only saw them on holidays, summers, and some weekends. They told me that even poor families did that, that in fact, it was more common for poor families to send their kids away to bigger cities with better schools. We don't do that here, I couldn't imagine sending my child to live with my parents 650 miles away because the schools are better.
 
Bucknekked

Bucknekked

Audioholic Field Marshall
I haven't been to China yet, it is on my list of places to visit. I've been invited to tour some of the factories before, but if I'm going to China for a vacation, I think touring factories will be low on my priority list. Maybe if they cover the costs of the trip and pay my time, haha. My wife has been, she loved it.

I went to graduate school with three people from China and my lead graduate professor was from South Korea. She ran a Korean Students social group and so I also had a bunch of her students on my research projects. It was obvious that both countries had very different social cultures, food norms, you name it. I learned a lot just being around them. In fact, my two best friends that were from China were from a part of China that eats very spicy food. They took my to a more authentic restaurant for their style of food, and I couldn't eat any of it. My teacher also took me out for Korean food quite a bit, and her idea of comfort food just about killed me. I love trying new foods, but Oh man do they like it spicy.

Anyway, when they told me about their home life, it was pretty shocking. Very different. Both of my good friends were relatively affluent Chinese. Their parents both owned manufacturing facilities. The schools in those cities were not good, so they lived with their relatives in bigger cities to go to better schools. That was the norm. The distances were not small either. China is about the same as the United States in total land mass. They were living about 500-1000 miles away from their parents and only saw them on holidays, summers, and some weekends. They told me that even poor families did that, that in fact, it was more common for poor families to send their kids away to bigger cities with better schools. We don't do that here, I couldn't imagine sending my child to live with my parents 650 miles away because the schools are better.
Spicy food? Oh man. And "different food", what an understatement. What the South Koreans think of as not too spicey or average would take my head off. The average hot pot served there was nearly impossible for me to eat. In China, many times it was not possible to recognize even what the food was. In those cases, I didn't eat it because if I can't even discern what it is, I'm not that adventurous. Lots of people love the challenge.

The cultural differences surrounding families and education are striking too. What surprised me was the difference between South Korean culture and Chinese (and others). In my pea brain I probably thought most Asian cultures are similar. That's like saying culture south of the Mason Dixon line is just like New England because they are both in the U.S.

I think one of the best things about globalization and a global economy is once a wide variety of countries become economically dependent on each other it cuts the chance of war. If I need you to make my medicine and you need me to make your bread, the likelihood some tin pot politician is going to be able to start a war to justify his puny existence goes way down. Plus, the enormous variety of cultures and norms just makes the world a more interesting place to live.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Slumlord
The distances were not small either. China is about the same as the United States in total land mass. They were living about 500-1000 miles away from their parents and only saw them on holidays, summers, and some weekends. They told me that even poor families did that, that in fact, it was more common for poor families to send their kids away to bigger cities with better schools. We don't do that here, I couldn't imagine sending my child to live with my parents 650 miles away because the schools are better.
That being away from family extends greatly into the workforce, too. China has the mid-autumn festival where people re-unite, it is a big exodus! Why the country is pretty much shut down during that period, too.
 
Bucknekked

Bucknekked

Audioholic Field Marshall
That being away from family extends greatly into the workforce, too. China has the mid-autumn festival where people re-unite, it is a big exodus! Why the country is pretty much shut down during that period, too.
One of the things you must be aware of if you travel inside China is their schedule of holidays. Its like a herd of elephants down a garden path. When the Chinese go on vacation and travel, and they do, its time to re-schedule and go there some other time. Just think, when a billion plus people decide to go and visit somewhere, its time to be somewhere else.

In Beijing, you can see these enormous public squares. Nothing like them in the U.S. for size. On a normal day, they are acres of empty concrete. During a vacation time, they can be assholes and elbows for as far as you can see.

I wouldn't want to live in China or under their system of government, but it is a fascinating place to visit and if you get the chance its been our experience that they are a wonderful people to just hang with.
 
Matthew J Poes

Matthew J Poes

Senior Audioholic
Spicy food? Oh man. And "different food", what an understatement. What the South Koreans think of as not too spicey or average would take my head off. The average hot pot served there was nearly impossible for me to eat. In China, many times it was not possible to recognize even what the food was. In those cases, I didn't eat it because if I can't even discern what it is, I'm not that adventurous. Lots of people love the challenge.

The cultural differences surrounding families and education are striking too. What surprised me was the difference between South Korean culture and Chinese (and others). In my pea brain I probably thought most Asian cultures are similar. That's like saying culture south of the Mason Dixon line is just like New England because they are both in the U.S.

I think one of the best things about globalization and a global economy is once a wide variety of countries become economically dependent on each other it cuts the chance of war. If I need you to make my medicine and you need me to make your bread, the likelihood some tin pot politician is going to be able to start a war to justify his puny existence goes way down. Plus, the enormous variety of cultures and norms just makes the world a more interesting place to live.
That generally matched my experience. The South Korean students I spent time with were a lot more like me than the Chinese students. We had more in common culturally.

Now as for strange food, i don't think anything could prepare me for century old eggs or fertilized embryonic duck eggs. Chinese love fermented foods, and while we do too, their versions usually were too much for me. I tried it all, but, well, not my jam.

My favorite thing I tried was Fish. I don't know what it was called, but it was steamed, served on a big platter with julienned green onions and ginger. Over the top they poured hot oil that crisped the skin. I don't know what kind of fish, but it was always white and usually about 2 feet long. It was delicious. We would dip the fish in soy sauce with spicy green peppers. I didn't have this in China, obviously, but with Chinese friends who told me this was a very traditional Chinese dish.
 
Matthew J Poes

Matthew J Poes

Senior Audioholic
That being away from family extends greatly into the workforce, too. China has the mid-autumn festival where people re-unite, it is a big exodus! Why the country is pretty much shut down during that period, too.
I've heard that as well. I just couldn't imagine that. I love my family, I couldn't imagine not being around them. I travel a lot for work and its the one thing I hate. I love being away, I stay in the best hotels, I get to sleep uninterrupted, I get to eat out at nice restaurants. But I miss my wife and daughter. I can't imagine barely ever seeing them because its the only way to get a good education or make enough money.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Slumlord
I've heard that as well. I just couldn't imagine that. I love my family, I couldn't imagine not being around them. I travel a lot for work and its the one thing I hate. I love being away, I stay in the best hotels, I get to sleep uninterrupted, I get to eat out at nice restaurants. But I miss my wife and daughter. I can't imagine barely ever seeing them because its the only way to get a good education or make enough money.
Even mass vacation time can also have a large effect even in the west. Europe was more like that when I first started working in logistics, both sides pushing to get things done before it hit, particularly July and August.
 
ematthews

ematthews

Audioholic General
I know this is just feeding trolls here, but most don't understand, there is no such thing as made domestically. Nothing in our CE world can be made 100% domestically.

Only a very tiny fraction of amplifiers are made in America using american made modules. The amplifier circuits inside are still usually built in China and shipped as assembled modules. Those that aren't use "beans" made in China. It's impossible to do anything else. Those that are made mostly domestically (where only the beans are sourced from China) cost 1000's of dollars. Nothing most can afford.

I can't name names, I will probably get myself in trouble, but MANY companies that claim american made are not. I don't consider having all the guys fully assembled in China and shipped to the USA so they can be stuck inside a Chinese made box american made.

Those who think this kind of manufacturing is coming back to the US are nuts. It was never in the US. We've never been able to make those kinds of electronics in the US, by the time we shipped all that kind of production to China (70's) we gave up the ability, failed to progress, and left all the manufacturing development and infrastructure to China. We don't have the ability to create those kinds of facilities here and lack the workforce to man them. When I've asked about it (cost not withstanding) I've been told it would take a generation to even build a modicum of what China has. If a Foxconn built a facility to manufacture receivers, tablets, laptops, etc. in the USA and was totally vertically integrated, they would have to man it about 80% with Chinese workers. They would then need to work with the US education system to fundamentally change tech education to prepare folks to be able to work on the assembly lines, operate the machines, etc. It isn't that Americans are uneducated or stupid, quite the opposite. It's better described as wrongly educated. What we prepare people for isn't that kind of work. It's all relatively low paying, and would be here too. Whose going to get a tech degree to make $15 an hour.

That isn't america hating, that is just a fact of life. Reagan opened the door to trade with China and in that deal we shifted the manufacturing of consumer electronics from the USA to China. They ran with it and today have built the entire giant country into a huge powerhouse of CE production and logistics.
Best explanation I have read on this subject. Thanks for the good reply.
 

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