How much power is enough power

[fmw]

I don't trust "Absolute Sound" because they never back up their subject mumbo jumbo with measurements. I really REALLY detest the whole notion of break in over time when its been clearly demonstrated time and time again that the accuracy of hearing memory is only good for several minutes at best. I would like to know exactly what gets broken in on power cables and interconnects. Everything audible can be measured but not everything measured is audible.

I'm beginning to understand the pricing of cables, interconnects, and power cords from a debate I'm having with a manufacturer of these items. This particular maufacturer use mil-spec components which has a far greater operating requirement than non mil-speced (commercial) components. The variance of mil-spec components is far tighter than commercial components. Using mil-spec means an audit trail into the manufacturing process and the documentation to back it up; ie..far more paper work behind each component compared to a commercial components. This added paper work costs a lot of money to support and the price gets put onto the components.

Actually, when there are audible differences, we humans tend to get accustomed to those audible differences over time. It can sometimes take weeks. You are correct that audio components don't break in. But we break in to those with audible differences like speakers, room acoustics and phono cartridges. I've been going through that personally since I changed the main speakers in my home theater. They have been sounding better and better to ME every day. It isn't that they sound any different. It is that familiarity improves our reaction to them. It's been a couple of weeks now and I think things have settled down for me. Obviously this doesn't apply to things like cables or DACs that have no sonic signature.

The pricing of cables relates to the marketing expense incurred and the value of the subjective reviews published in the magazines. People will pay more for cables that have familiar names and positive reviews in magazines.

 

[3db]

Actually, when there are audible differences, we humans tend to get accustomed to those audible differences over time. It can sometimes take weeks. You are correct that audio components don't break in. But we break in to those with audible differences like speakers, room acoustics and phono cartridges. I've been going through that personally since I changed the main speakers in my home theater. They have been sounding better and better to ME every day. It isn't that they sound any different. It is that familiarity improves our reaction to them. It's been a couple of weeks now and I think things have settled down for me. Obviously this doesn't apply to things like cables or DACs that have no sonic signature.

I'm totally with you that its us human that break in and not the components.

I also agree with this. However, if mil-spec components are being used, the component prices themselves could easily see as a bare minimum, 10x price increase. I used to work in the defence industry when I first graduated from university and I was very shocked at the price differences between commercial and mil-spec components. Its far from trivial.

 

[fmw]

I'm totally with you that its us human that break in and not the components.



I also agree with this. However, if mil-spec components are being used, the component prices themselves could easily see as a bare minimum, 10x price increase. I used to work in the defence industry when I first graduated from university and I was very shocked at the price differences between commercial and mil-spec components. Its far from trivial.

I'm not arguing about the cost of mil-spec components. What I mean to say is that the cost of production is not a major factor in the retail selling price. Just like the overpriced cables Peng referred to, the cost couldn't possibly be more than 20 or 30 dollars per cable. The $26,000 is all profit. I actually developed some cables with a major OEM cable assembler and tried to sell them. I had a $6 cost per 1 meter interconnect pair and a selling price of $49.95. They were made with the best components available in the industry. They were easily the equivalent, both electrically and cosmetically, to the 4 figure interconnect pairs. The problem, of course, is that I didn't have the money to make them a household name and I couldn't get any of the major reviewers to review them. Too cheap for them, I guess. I still use them in my systems. They are a little fat and fussy but they work just fine.

 

[3db]

I'm not arguing about the cost of mil-spec components. What I mean to say is that the cost of production is not a major factor in the retail selling price. Just like the overpriced cables Peng referred to, the cost couldn't possibly be more than 20 or 30 dollars per cable. The $26,000 is all profit. I actually developed some cables with a major OEM cable assembler and tried to sell them. I had a $6 cost per 1 meter interconnect pair and a selling price of $49.95. They were made with the best components available in the industry. They were easily the equivalent, both electrically and cosmetically, to the 4 figure interconnect pairs. The problem, of course, is that I didn't have the money to make them a household name and I couldn't get any of the major reviewers to review them. Too cheap for them, I guess. I still use them in my systems. They are a little fat and fussy but they work just fine.

I have a feeling that the actual manufacturing costs are a well guarded secret

 

[3db]

I'm not arguing about the cost of mil-spec components. What I mean to say is that the cost of production is not a major factor in the retail selling price. Just like the overpriced cables Peng referred to, the cost couldn't possibly be more than 20 or 30 dollars per cable.

Understood, especially if only using commercial grade components. However in the case with the manufacturer that I'm debating with, the mil spec components being used will easily multiply that cost 10x as a minimum. Now we're much closer to $26K. j/k

I wonder how expensive the cryogenic process is that most of these cable guys are using.

The way I see it, these cable manufacturers employ all these expensive techniques (adding no sonic values) which raises the costs of the items to much more than say "Blue Jean" cables as an example but far from the stratospheric priced cables being mentioned. I still think its scam.

 

[fmw]

I guess it depends on your point of view. People like you and I consider it a scam. But the people who allow bias to control their hearing are simply reporting what they hear - or think they hear or expected to hear. I think it is well meaning but, as we know, it is false.

 

[PENG]

Understood, especially if only using commercial grade components. However in the case with the manufacturer that I'm debating with, the mil spec components being used will easily multiply that cost 10x as a minimum. Now we're much closer to $26K. j/k

I wonder how expensive the cryogenic process is that most of these cable guys are using.

The way I see it, these cable manufacturers employ all these expensive techniques (adding no sonic values) which raises the costs of the items to much more than say "Blue Jean" cables as an example but far from the stratospheric priced cables being mentioned. I still think its scam.

By elevating the costs, they naturally would face fewer competition, facing more affluent potential buyers, resulting in more freedom to apply a much higher margin.

 

[cpp]

By elevating the costs, they naturally would face fewer competition, facing more affluent potential buyers, resulting in more freedom to apply a much higher margin.

not sure I agree with the more affluent buyers as there are a lot of normal people that purchase these BS high dollar $1k per 3 meter cables because someone in a forum pumped up the " I hear a difference song" . And as long as someone buys the cable BS these manufacturers are going to keep inching up the dollars for any sucker out there.

Now if cryogenics is so darn good, we would have every manufacturer of anything and everything labeling their product, Cryogenically Treated
Interesting article on Audio Cryogenic cryointernationalinterview

I think I will start a business for all the guitar players out there and start selling kiln-dried strings and vulcanised fret wire, I know it makes a difference, why you ask, cause I put it on the internet

 

[Steve81]

Now if cryogenics is so darn good, we would have every manufacturer of anything and everything labeling their product, Cryogenically Treated
Interesting article on Audio Cryogenic cryointernationalinterview

I've heard you can place your wires in a regular freezer for a couple of days to achieve the same effect. You should set your freezer on its coldest setting for the maximum effect though. ......