How much power is enough power

[Goliath]

Would anyone try to drive $20K speakers with an entry-level AVR?

Probably not, but I'm not concerned with what people generally do. Could one get away with using an AVR on those speakers without any ill effects, assuming reasonable seated distances and assuming they were not trying to replicate orchestra-type SPL?

 

[Irvrobinson]

Probably not, but I'm not concerned with what people generally do. Could one get away with using an AVR on those speakers without any ill effects, assuming reasonable seated distances and assuming they were not trying to replicate orchestra-type SPL?

You know the answer to this - yes, they could use most AVRs and be fine most of the time. Might the 800Ds sound better with a very powerful separate amp? Maybe, certainly sometimes, but most of the time an AVR would at least work just fine.

 

[ImcLoud]

I'm tired...

I have come to the conclusion Audio topics have more of these pain in the @ss topics than any other subject... I am a member of Gun forums, motorcycle forums, hot rod forums, and HVAC-r forums, and all of them forums have a couple topics that some newbe starts on his first post that ends up going 50 pages and getting NO WHERE... In the motorcycle forums its always "Which oil do you use", guns are "what do you keep for home defense", HVAC-r is "high efficiency vs std efficiency" ect, ect, ect.... But the sudio forums have so many of these that rearstheir ugly heads on a weekly basis it gives me an eye headache every time...

This topic will never end, its just going to go on and on like a visit from my in laws... best described in the words of Micheal Corleone "just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in"..

Do yourself a favor and let this thread die, it doesn't even serve a purpose anymore, the op isn't even in the market for an amplifier... There is no correct answer, its just BS. Some people like separate amps, some like to keep it simple and inexpensive with an all in one AVR... If you have speakers that are easy to run and you don't listen loud an AVR will serve you just fine, if you push your system and like the look of a full rack (yes I said full rack) and maybe have some speakers that are low ohm or not very sensitive then get an amp because I have yet to see the 200w with all ch driven avr...

This isnt the Op's fault, its our fault for continuing to feed this animal for no reason...

 

[Goliath]

You know the answer to this - yes, they could use most AVRs and be fine most of the time. Might the 800Ds sound better with a very powerful separate amp? Maybe, certainly sometimes, but most of the time an AVR would at least work just fine.

Just checking. Well I guess that concludes the thread. All my questions were answered to my satisfaction. Thank you very much for participating and for giving me your insight into this topic. Same to everyone else, I really appreciate it.

 

[Goliath]

Do yourself a favor and let this thread die, it doesn't even serve a purpose anymore, the op isn't even in the market for an amplifier... There is no correct answer, its just BS.

Okay, but no one forced you to click on this thread and to read the posts here. You could have quietly skipped this thread altogether, so you really only have yourself to blame here. If you're bored, you're welcome to ignore the thread like a normal person. Personally I think this thread has been informative, not just for me, but for other people who may be reading as well.

 

[Goliath]

I think I understand the source of your frustration, ImcLoud. You bought yourself the Emotiva XPA-5 power amplifier for no good reason at all and this thread is just reassuring you of this fact.

I see you're using a capable subwoofer too and I presume bass management, so you're using a crossover frequency for the Ascends. I wonder what the point was of buying the Emotiva if you're using a subwoofer to handle the low frequency load and/or high-passing the main speakers.

I also see those Ascends have a 90 dB SPL sensitivity (anechoic), so even higher in-room, and have an 8 ohm nominal impedance. So tell me, what logic inspired you to run out and buy the Emotiva XPA-5 power amp? The shiny lights?

Edit : I see you called me an "animal". I don't remember throwing insults your way earlier on in this thread, so I'm surprised at your personal attack. Clearly a nerve has been struck here, it seems.

 

[fmw]

No other subject that I know of has an entire industry based on how our brain fools our senses. Motorcycle oil and HVAC are far more strightforward, I would think. There are opinions, of course, but there isn't an entire industry lying to people like high end audio, and doing it in a well meaning fashion. Well, maybe there is the subject of wine but there again we have an interaction between the brain and the senses. Perhaps a chocolaty finish is similar to an amplifier's pace and rhythm.

 

[ImcLoud]

I think I understand the source of your frustration, ImcLoud. You bought yourself the Emotiva XPA-5 power amplifier and essentially you could have gotten by with a whole lot less. I see you're using a subwoofer and I presume bass management, so you're using a crossover frequency for the Ascends. I wonder what the point was of buying the Emotiva if you're using a subwoofer to handle the low frequency load, which incidentally also requires the most power.

I also see those Ascends have a 90 dB SPL sensitivity (anechoic) and have an 8 ohm nominal impedance. Nothing terribly difficult to drive. So tell me, why exactly did you want the XPA-5 power amp?

Edit : I see you called me an "animal". I don't remember throwing insults your way earlier on in this thread, did I? Did I harm anyone in this thread?

Pump your brakes, and take a breath...

I didn't call you an animal, I was referring to the thread, the thread is the animal we keep feeding...

I am not trying to start an argument with you, if I was it would be much easier to read into than that, you wouldn't need to reach for it by any means, and it would be in person, not on a forum...

I meant no offense to you, I am just stating this topic has been over and we keep bringing it back, it is getting no where, if you are going to argue that it is getting somewhere productive, just read your last post as my proof...

But to answer your question, YET AGAIN... As I said a few times in this topic alone...

I tried to run my system with an AVR, and I like the Separates much better, Plus I am silly like that I like how it looks, I like how it sounds, and I like Emotiva gear.. I have been using separates for a while...

I don't know what else to say except, your second to last post gave me hope that the topic was over, but here we are again..

BUT maybe you are rite, I am so kicking myself about wasting my money on an amp I built every system I own around a processor and separate amplifier, and I'm building my designated HT around 4 (yah 4) separate amps!!!

I don't care what anyone says, it comes down to what you can afford and want to spend, I spent $400 getting a 4" thick piece of wood made to mount my xpa2 on, come to think of it I have spent thousands just on amplifier stands, the stand my tube amp is mounted on is made from hand scraped black walnut almost 3" thick I think that was around $600 by the time it was all done....

It reads like you are trying to justify not getting an amplifier, but there is nothing wrong with a budget avr system, they can sound good too... My systems are for my enjoyment, I have 50 or so speakers in my house and all have been put there and moved around to my liking, its a hobby...

So don't take it personally, I was just stating that- the thread was over and these come up all too often, we like to beat a dead horse for some reason, sorry Adam (he hates when animals die)...

I agree I didn't have to click on the post, but I made the mistake by answering early on in the thread and then kept check ing in to see where it was going, guees what-- it went NO WHERE!!!>>>>


But I apologize if I caused you any distress, that was not my intention...

 

[Goliath]

I agree I didn't have to click on the post, but I made the mistake by answering early on in the thread and then kept check ing in to see where it was going, guees what-- it went NO WHERE!!!>>>>

This is a thread, like any other and there are only so many directions it can take before it hits a brick wall. I found this thread to be very useful to me. Not necessarily to you, but your needs aren't my priority. If anyone else found this thread interesting and/or useful then that's a bonus, as far as I'm concerned.

Your earlier comment re "This isnt the Op's fault, its our fault for continuing to feed this animal for no reason..." seemed to be directed at me and hence I reacted to that comment. It sounded like you were attacking me.

 

[ImcLoud]

This is a thread, like any other and there are only so many directions it can take before it hits a brick wall. I found this thread to be very useful to me. Not necessarily to you, but your needs aren't my priority. If anyone else found this thread interesting and/or useful then that's a bonus, as far as I'm concerned.

Your earlier comment re "This isnt the Op's fault, its our fault for continuing to feed this animal for no reason..." seemed to be directed at me and hence I reacted to that comment. It sounded like you were attacking me.

My entire post referred to the thread not the OP, I actually said that a few times and apologized for the misunderstanding, I have yet to see someone start one of these posts and change any ones mind OP included, you didn't think an amplifier was needed in the beginning and you still feel that way...

but anyway, apology accepted, thanks

 

[PENG]

No other subject that I know of has an entire industry based on how our brain fools our senses. Motorcycle oil and HVAC are far more strightforward, I would think. There are opinions, of course, but there isn't an entire industry lying to people like high end audio, and doing it in a well meaning fashion. Well, maybe there is the subject of wine but there again we have an interaction between the brain and the senses. Perhaps a chocolaty finish is similar to an amplifier's pace and rhythm.

I just read a cable review by Absolute Sound. It wasn't the most expensive cable, just around 28,000 for a pair of 2 meter speaker cables, 13,000 for 2 meter interconnect and only 7,200 for a power cord. I could be off a bit, just going by memory. How much are the more expensive high end power cord, interconnects again? I read the whole review as it was really entertaining. The reviewer cautioned that it could several months to break in those cables before they would sound just right. After reading that review I am now willing to be more open minded on how/why more power can make night and day sound quality improvements even at fractional watt output levels. I guess electrial theories, specs and measurements just don't tell the whole story, there are more to it that manufacturers and consumers may not be aware of, yet..

 

[big2bird]

I just read a cable review by Absolute Sound. It wasn't the most expensive cable, just around 28,000 for a pair of 2 meter speaker cables, 13,000 for 2 meter interconnect and only 7,200 for a power cord. I could be off a bit, just going by memory. How much are the more expensive high end power cord, interconnects again? I read the whole review as it was really entertaining. The reviewer cautioned that it could several months to break in those cables before they would sound just right. After reading that review I am now willing to be more open minded on how/why more power can make night and day sound quality improvements even at fractional watt output levels. I guess electrial theories, specs and measurements just don't tell the whole story, there are more to it that manufacturers and consumers may not be aware of, yet..

Power cords? Would you really care for the straight skinny on esoteric power cords?

 

[mtrycrafts]

... Well, maybe there is the subject of wine ...

At least some official judging of wines takes place blinded. Just doesn't happen in audio except in audio clubs and by a few individuals who go around testing folks who agree to be tested in the first place.

 

[PENG]

At least some official judging of wines takes place blinded. Just doesn't happen in audio except in audio clubs and by a few individuals who go around testing folks who agree to be tested in the first place.

Why don't we organize some mutally (between the camps) agreeable blind tests to compare half a dozen amps, pick from those often mentioned on this forum such as the ATI3000 series, Emotiva XPA-5, Parasound Halo A21 or A51, McIntosh MC302, and a couple of AVR such as the Denon AVR-4520, Marantz SR-7005, and Yamah RX-A3010? Shouldn't be that hard to do.

 

[fmw]

I just read a cable review by Absolute Sound. It wasn't the most expensive cable, just around 28,000 for a pair of 2 meter speaker cables, 13,000 for 2 meter interconnect and only 7,200 for a power cord. I could be off a bit, just going by memory. How much are the more expensive high end power cord, interconnects again? I read the whole review as it was really entertaining. The reviewer cautioned that it could several months to break in those cables before they would sound just right. After reading that review I am now willing to be more open minded on how/why more power can make night and day sound quality improvements even at fractional watt output levels. I guess electrial theories, specs and measurements just don't tell the whole story, there are more to it that manufacturers and consumers may not be aware of, yet..

The review was one of those well meaning lies to which I referred.

 

[fmw]

Why don't we organize some mutally (between the camps) agreeable blind tests to compare half a dozen amps, pick from those often mentioned on this forum such as the ATI3000 series, Emotiva XPA-5, Parasound Halo A21 or A51, McIntosh MC302, and a couple of AVR such as the Denon AVR-4520, Marantz SR-7005, and Yamah RX-A3010? Shouldn't be that hard to do.

Actually it is fairly fussy and time consuming to do. It's a fine idea, though. I recommend bias controlled testing to any audiophile that can get involved in it. It will change your audio life. I did it to my satisfaction a dozen years ago.

 

[PENG]

Actually it is fairly fussy and time consuming to do. It's a fine idea, though. I recommend bias controlled testing to any audiophile that can get involved in it. It will change your audio life. I did it to my satisfaction a dozen years ago.

It is not too difficult to do as long as it is in Toronto, I'll bring my 3805 at the very least.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Actually it is fairly fussy and time consuming to do.

Absolutely, and there's only one thing worse than setting up an SBT or a DBT, in my opinion, and that's participating in one.

 

[fmw]

Absolutely, and there's only one thing worse than setting up an SBT or a DBT, in my opinion, and that's participating in one.

Ah yes. I forgot to mention boring.

 

[3db]

I just read a cable review by Absolute Sound. It wasn't the most expensive cable, just around 28,000 for a pair of 2 meter speaker cables, 13,000 for 2 meter interconnect and only 7,200 for a power cord. I could be off a bit, just going by memory. How much are the more expensive high end power cord, interconnects again? I read the whole review as it was really entertaining. The reviewer cautioned that it could several months to break in those cables before they would sound just right. After reading that review I am now willing to be more open minded on how/why more power can make night and day sound quality improvements even at fractional watt output levels. I guess electrial theories, specs and measurements just don't tell the whole story, there are more to it that manufacturers and consumers may not be aware of, yet..

I don't trust "Absolute Sound" because they never back up their subject mumbo jumbo with measurements. I really REALLY detest the whole notion of break in over time when its been clearly demonstrated time and time again that the accuracy of hearing memory is only good for several minutes at best. I would like to know exactly what gets broken in on power cables and interconnects. Everything audible can be measured but not everything measured is audible.

I'm beginning to understand the pricing of cables, interconnects, and power cords from a debate I'm having with a manufacturer of these items. This particular maufacturer use mil-spec components which has a far greater operating requirement than non mil-speced (commercial) components. The variance of mil-spec components is far tighter than commercial components. Using mil-spec means an audit trail into the manufacturing process and the documentation to back it up; ie..far more paper work behind each component compared to a commercial components. This added paper work costs a lot of money to support and the price gets put onto the components.