How much power is enough power

P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Yes, but that begs the question. How would I figure that out?
I mentioned a few things in post#2. We can also help you figure that if you provide at least the following info:

1) Room dimensions.
2) Listening distance.
3) Speaker sensitivities in dB/W @ 1 meter, or dB/V @ 1meter and their impedance characteristics.
4) Speaker maximum spl (hopefully manufacturer specifies @1 meter)
5) Speaker configuration. (2.0,2.1,5.1,7.1?)
6) Types of music you listen to.

Again, if my amp isn't clipping and I don't notice anything unusual in the sound, does that mean my power requirements have been satiated? What else do I need to consider?
If your amp has some sort of anti-clipping circuitry built in, you may be losing out on dynamics at higher listening levels. Not a problem if you listen at levels low enough that the amp can take care of say 15 to 25 dB of peak swings freely without inflicting any built in limiting features.
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
Yes, but that begs the question. How would I figure that out? Again, if my amp isn't clipping and I don't notice anything unusual in the sound, does that mean my power requirements have been satiated? What else do I need to consider?
This is a controversial and complex discussion, in my opinion. In general, yes, if your amp isn't clipping you have enough power, but there are other factors, and there is a certain amount of disagreement over how audible the other factors are or can be. Clipping is very easily audible, but a lot of amps these days have anti-clipping circuits, and those circuits simply reduce the gain to non-clipping levels, which also has the effect of affecting only certain frequencies, which can affect perceived frequency balance. Other effects, like increased distortion, degraded effective frequency response, or even reduced available power into certain loads are speaker-dependent and amp-speaker interdependent. That is, however, a cop-out way of saying it's almost impossible to predict if a better designed or more powerful amp will make you happier without measuring. If you are a gambler you will probably win most often if you bet that these interdependent effects are inaudible.

On a related note, in my opinion the vast majority of speakers available today are not difficult loads for most modern, well-designed solid state amps. Everyone wants to think their speakers are difficult loads, like it's some badge of honor, and many speaker companies like to encourage people to overkill in amplifiers, so that they have confidence that their speakers are presented in the best possible light, but most speakers are easily driven by most amps, and the main difference is just the maximum power level.

Since almost none of us are able to objectively determine if we need more power, my suggestion is generally to find some way to borrow a much more powerful amplifier, like at least 3db more powerful, or twice the output, stick it in your system, and listen, trying to be objective as you can. Humans aren't very good at being objective, sighted listening tests don't tell you anything conclusive, but I'm of the opinion that audio isn't about objectivity, it's about having fun, and if satisfying some unreasonable bias lets you have more fun then just do it. If the more powerful amp makes you happier with your system ignore everyone that says it's probably not the case. Most people over-estimate the power they need, but there is no harm in experimentation.
 
ImcLoud

ImcLoud

Audioholic Ninja
I agree, the only real way to know if you will be happier with more power is to try it, like I said I tried it and it makes a difference, to me I want to never have to worry about clipping... To continue with the car analogy- If I am just using the car to get from a to b and don't care how fast I get there or how comfortable I am during the ride or how I look, then a tiny smart car is the cheapest way for me to go, but if I want to be able to get there faster, in more comfort and style, and don't mind the extra cost a CTS-V would be a good option....

Car analogies are harder than they look...

But go to any emotiva event and have them play you a upa2-- vs an xpa200 with a given set of speakers, you will notice the difference... I want that spare power for the days I feel like turning it up and shaking the house around, with the upa200 it would be clipping and popping away, and I would have to worry about my speakers and amp getting damaged... If you can get that XPA2 to clip, you are just a jerk that likes noise not music...
 
G

Goliath

Full Audioholic
Thank you very much for the explanation Irvrobinson! How would I know if my amplifier has anti-clipping circuitry? I have an Onkyo NR818 receiver.

Since almost none of us are able to objectively determine if we need more power, my suggestion is generally to find some way to borrow a much more powerful amplifier, like at least 3db more powerful, or twice the output, stick it in your system, and listen, trying to be objective as you can.
Excellent point. The problem with this type of test is that I probably will think a more powerful amp sounds better ... probably because it's louder from the get-go. If the gain levels are different, it's almost a 100% guarantee that I'll think the bass has more impact, or the sound has more authority. What I learned from the guys from AVS, Arnold Krueger, is that I would need a volt meter across the speaker terminals and I don't have access to that, nor do I think I'll be able to compare them properly as I have no experience doing stuff like this.

The more I read, the more it appears that this power issue has been overhyped by the media, by fellow audiophiles who simply don't know any better. Like a meme, it spreads until quite a few people insist you just NEED a power amplifier and that will offer improved performance over your AVR.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I agree, the only real way to know if you will be happier with more power is to try it, like I said I tried it and it makes a difference, to me I want to never have to worry about clipping...
I never tried figuring out how much power is enough for me either but I knew right from start that I would be getting much more than "enough" for my own situation and that I wouldn't have to wonder or worry. So I also agree with you, but the OP asked a different question and I tried to response to what he asked.:)
 
G

Goliath

Full Audioholic
ImcLoud said:
But go to any emotiva event and have them play you a upa2-- vs an xpa200 with a given set of speakers, you will notice the difference... I want that spare power for the days I feel like turning it up and shaking the house around, with the upa200 it would be clipping and popping away, and I would have to worry about my speakers and amp getting damaged... If you can get that XPA2 to clip, you are just a jerk that likes noise not music...
Interestingly enough, I searched the forum reading reviews of the XPA-3 and XPA-5. Quite a few people can't hear a difference between the power amp and their existing kit - some of the people who initially made claims of big sonic improvements later realised their existing kit sounded the same after a few adjustments.

If you take 2 amplifiers and just compare them willy nilly then I'm sure you'll hear differences. One amp will have a different gain structure compared to another - what I've been reading is that if you readjust the levels so that they are equal, the differences disappear.
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
Thank you very much for the explanation Irvrobinson! How would I know if my amplifier has anti-clipping circuitry? I have an Onkyo NR818 receiver.
I don't know. The web site and the owner's manual for the 818 don't describe clipping protection, but that's not conclusive evidence it isn't there.

The problem with this type of test is that I probably will think a more powerful amp sounds better ... probably because it's louder from the get-go. If the gain levels are different, it's almost a 100% guarantee that I'll think the bass has more impact, or the sound has more authority.
A more powerful amplifier may not be detectably louder from the get-go, assuming you have enough power for your speakers and your usage conditions in the first place. You do have to match levels for a valid comparison, or as you say, the louder choice will usually sound better. It is, however, perfectly reasonable that the more powerful amplifier sounds better just because it can play louder without distortion, though that's normally only true in large rooms or with relatively inefficient speakers. With an 818, at 135w/ch, it seems to me like it would take very loud listening levels in a large room with very good speakers to really need more power.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
Placebo effect is real, and often works with wonder. That's why we have blind test protocols. People who also claimed hearing day and night difference not only due to power but just between say a $10K amp and a $3K amp (both class AB SS) could perhaps easily fail such tests.

Then there are counter arguments that claim differences could have take long term listening to discover such that blind tests could not do reveal. My issue with that claim or argument is that if it take a long term to feel the differences then they cannot be day and night, huge or whatever adjectives used by many audiophiles and that such differences may exist but would be subtle to the point that people could feel yet probably still not quite audible as such.
And, long term DBT is also possible to do and has been done. ;)
Didn't help:D

Oh, acoustic memory is very short as you know so how can long term listening help? You forget any subtle changes in a hurry so this excuse by the golden ears is a silly excuse.:D
 
B

big2bird

Junior Audioholic
Jeesh. Is my car analogy oversimplified yes.
However, if his amp is already ample to supply the sound levels he likes without clipping, and has headroom for peaks without clipping, adding more "horsepower" such as going from 100w per chan to 10,000 watts per channel is pointless.
He will get a higher dampening factor that might help bass response, but basically, it's barely idling.
My little DC-150A crown will make my very efficient 846B Altecs blast the windows at 1/3 output. Do I need a Macrotek 5,000? Nope.
Is there more to it? Sure.
High HP Corvettes beat high HP Fords. :)
 
ImcLoud

ImcLoud

Audioholic Ninja
Interestingly enough, I searched the forum reading reviews of the XPA-3 and XPA-5. Quite a few people can't hear a difference between the power amp and their existing kit - some of the people who initially made claims of big sonic improvements later realised their existing kit sounded the same after a few adjustments.

If you take 2 amplifiers and just compare them willy nilly then I'm sure you'll hear differences. One amp will have a different gain structure compared to another - what I've been reading is that if you readjust the levels so that they are equal, the differences disappear.
I didn't say "big sonic improvements" But a noticeable difference for sure... I can tell you this, turn your 80w 6-8ohm stable avr all the way up and then turn my xpa5 up to the same volume level {db wise}, and you will see what I am talking about... Now let them run for a few hours and watch the avr get hot and degrade...

Now as for the original post asking if more power is needed? If you are happy with your avr you wouldn't be asking, and the best and in my opinion only way to find out if an amp will sound better is to try it... Free 30day trials, cant get much easier than that...

I like separates from more than the sq reason, IMO they look better {when you are showing off you HT, its nice to have a stack of amps there for all to see :) } , they last longer, they are easier to upgrade, run cooler, have a resale value vs avrs are worthless after 3 years, more headroom, and are capable of running any speaker you pick (normally down to 2 ohm stable, vs most avrs are 6 and 8}... But it costs money, so if you are on a strict budget and trying to get the most for your money then grab a rebuilt avr {no shortage of them, you ever wonder why?} and call it a day...
 
G

Goliath

Full Audioholic
ImcLoud said:
I can tell you this, turn your 80w 6-8ohm stable avr all the way up and then turn my xpa5 up to the same volume level {db wise}, and you will see what I am talking about... Now let them run for a few hours and watch the avr get hot and degrade...
Yeah but who operates their systems in that way? :D
 
A

avengineer

Banned
I mentioned a few things in post#2. We can also help you figure that if you provide at least the following info:

1) Room dimensions.
2) Listening distance.
3) Speaker sensitivities in dB/W @ 1 meter, or dB/V @ 1meter and their impedance characteristics.
4) Speaker maximum spl (hopefully manufacturer specifies @1 meter)
5) Speaker configuration. (2.0,2.1,5.1,7.1?)
6) Types of music you listen to.



If your amp has some sort of anti-clipping circuitry built in, you may be losing out on dynamics at higher listening levels. Not a problem if you listen at levels low enough that the amp can take care of say 15 to 25 dB of peak swings freely without inflicting any built in limiting features.
Of the above, 2, 3, and 5 are all that's really needed. 1 won't matter unless the room dimensions dictate the listening position or speakers get within a couple feet of the walls. 4 is interesting, but doesn't impact the basic calculation. 6 relates to crest factor, but doesn't affect the max SPL calculation.

Back to the OP's question, factors 2, 3, and 5 can be plugged into calculations that would land you at your maximum SPL at the listening position at full power. An example would be at a distance of 10', speaker sensitivity at 85dB/1W/m, and 3 speakers (LCR). For your Onkyo at 135 W (more on that in a sec), you land at 101dB SPL max. The biggest factor here is speaker sensitivity, because if you double your power, you change your max SPL by 3dB, but if you find speakers with 95dB/1W/m sensitivity, you've made a 10dB change. In the first example, changing from the AVR to 3 channels of twice the power only lands you at 104dB SPL max. That goes in the right direction, would be slightly audible in the loudest situations, but doesn't help all that much. If you really want louder, you need more efficient speakers.

BTW, a max of 101dB SPL puts your average level for movies at 20dB below that, or 80dB SPL, which is loud, but 5dB below "reference". As source material goes, movies are mixed at a reference level of 85dB SPL with 20dB of headroom, which explosions will often use up. So for undistorted, unclipped sound, we should play movie tracks at 20dB below our max SPL, calibrated with all channels driven with uncorrelated noise. The glitch here is the center channel, which on its own maxes at 96.6dB SPL, 20dB bleow that is 76.6, which is adequate, just barely. Again, upping your power by double changes everything by just 3dB, so if you really want to make a change, you need different speakers. As a rule of thumb, to make a volume change that people perceive as doubling volume, you need to change by 10dB.

If we're talking music, not movies, the peak to average difference can be anywhere from 3dB to 20dB, so it gets pretty hard to predict.

Now, as to the differences between the AVR and separate power amps, one factor is the maximum power with multiple channels driven. Some AVRs can't supply full rated power when all channels are driven equally, but good power amps usually can. Now, that sounds like a big deal, but in practice, nothing we listen to ever drives all channels equally at the same time. So, in the end, the "all channels driven" vs "2 channels driven" specs don't matter much.

As to the presence of clip protection, it's not likely in this case. The maximum short term power is a fraction of a dB more than steady state (135w vs 150w), and the power spec is done at .08% THD. A clip limiter has an attack and release time which affect both the effectiveness as a clip protector, and distortion. To be an effective clip protector it needs to attack and release fairly quickly, which would preclude .08% at full power by quite a ways. Also, clip protection limiters are not frequency selective. Clip protection limiters are not typically found on AVRs, but are much more common in power amps, where there is usually a front panel indicator when they are active.

The above example uses some rather inefficient speakers. Since speaker sensitivity is the key to answering the question, that's really the missing piece.
 
G

Goliath

Full Audioholic
ImcLoud said:
Now as for the original post asking if more power is needed? If you are happy with your avr you wouldn't be asking, and the best and in my opinion only way to find out if an amp will sound better is to try it... Free 30day trials, cant get much easier than that...
The question was born out of curiosity. I guess you're right, if I'm asking then I probably don't have a problem. Still, I've heard so many stories of people replacing their existing amplifiers with monster Krell power amps, or Mcintosh, and they say the extra power made their systems sing. What I find interesting is that these differences are not at reference level or above, but at any given level.

Hence my question about needing more power - if at a given SPL you're not clipping, would there really be need for more power? I think that question has been answered to my satisfaction. The other side of the equation is a debate that I really don't want to get into because it will go on forever - re amps all sound different etc etc . :D
 
G

Goliath

Full Audioholic
avengineer said:
Of the above, 2, 3, and 5 are all that's really needed. 1 won't matter unless the room dimensions dictate the listening position or speakers get within a couple feet of the walls. 4 is interesting, but doesn't impact the basic calculation. 6 relates to crest factor, but doesn't affect the max SPL calculation.
Apologies for not answering those questions. I'm sitting 2.5 meters away from my speakers. 88 dB sensitivity, and I do not blast my system as I live in a 2 bedroom flat. I do not approach reference level. If I had to guess, but I could find out with an SPL meter as I have one handy, is that my listening levels are closer to 95 dB peaks, or -10 from reference (calibrated at 75 dB per speaker/ subwoofer).

I am using a subwoofer and bass management. That right off the bat would tell me my power requirements have been reduced quite significantly. But I know I was questioning myself concerning this after reading all about dedicated power amps and how much current is needed etc etc. Many people buy into the concept that super high current amplifiers are *required* for better performance. And this thread has made it clear that once you've reached a given voltage and current that the speaker requires, adding more will not result in any improvement because the amplifier simply will not deliver more.

BTW, thank you very much for your informative reply!
 
A

avengineer

Banned
Your max is between 106 and 109dB SPL depending on how close to walls your speakers are.

All amplifiers, operated without distortion, sound the same. :D
 
G

Goliath

Full Audioholic
Okay, then I'm probably sorted. :D

Just help me understand something please. If I take speakers that people claim are notoriously power hungry, speakers like the B&W 800, and I used an entry-level AVR, like say an Denon X500 (70 watts into 8 ohms), and the impedance dropped, that isn't a guarantee that the receiver will clip either, right? Doesn't it depend on listening levels as well?

So even if the signal dips into 2 ohms at some frequency, if the level isn't loud enough, it won't really matter one way or the other - ie I could use just about any amplifier and it would most likely suffice? It's only really when the volume levels are pushed that a more robust amplifier may be needed?

Thanks again for your help.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Apologies for not answering those questions. I'm sitting 2.5 meters away from my speakers. 88 dB sensitivity, and I do not blast my system as I live in a 2 bedroom flat. I do not approach reference level. If I had to guess, but I could find out with an SPL meter as I have one handy, is that my listening levels are closer to 95 dB peaks, or -10 from reference (calibrated at 75 dB per speaker/ subwoofer).

I am using a subwoofer and bass management. That right off the bat would tell me my power requirements have been reduced quite significantly. But I know I was questioning myself concerning this after reading all about dedicated power amps and how much current is needed etc etc. Many people buy into the concept that super high current amplifiers are *required* for better performance. And this thread has made it clear that once you've reached a given voltage and current that the speaker requires, adding more will not result in any improvement because the amplifier simply will not deliver more.

BTW, thank you very much for your informative reply!
Speaker sensitivity spec is another controversial topic. For example, 88 dB sensitivity does not tell us

1) Whether it is at 2.83V at 1 meter, or 1W at 1 meter.
2) Whether it is measured open field, in a typical room (I have seen it specified that way without defining "typical"), or in an anechoic chamber.

If 1) is for 2.83V at 1 meter, then you need to know the speaker's nominal impedance, some online spl calculators require the 1W at 1 meter figure. Nominal impedance is yet another controversial topic as to what exactly it means and not manufacturers may not follow the same standard.

If 1) is for 1W at 1 meter, then for rough calculations you can ignore the impedance but then the end result would still depend on the impedance and phase characteristics and could vary quite a bit among speakers with the same specified sensitivity. So there is nothing definite about this one.

All of the above don't matter if we are only concerned with the basic and rough calculations that most online spl calculators offer, and since you did not say the 88 dB is for the 2.83V or 1W, anechoic or "typical room" etc., let's assume it is for 1W at 1m anechoic.

Then SPL calculator (many are googleable but I use my own in Excel) would get you approx. 100 dB at your 2.5 meters listening position. So to keep 20 dB extra for peaks, you should be able to get 80 dB average without much concerns about clipping. However, the SPL calculator (mine) has not factored in room gain and reinforcement due to multiple speakers. You could potential get another 6 to 10 dB, more or less, depending on your room and number of speakers.

All things considered, I think if you are happy with 80 dB average at 2.5 meter away, 100WPC could be "enough". Again, in real world situations, you still have room gain, multiple speaker reinforcement (say 3 db for L/R), bass management, AVR's short term dynamic higher output capability etc. on your side, so you are probably right in what you are saying in the end.

By the way, how come I have the feeling that you already know the answers before asking the questions?:confused:
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Clip protection limiters are not typically found on AVRs, but are much more common in power amps, where there is usually a front panel indicator when they are active.

The above example uses some rather inefficient speakers. Since speaker sensitivity is the key to answering the question, that's really the missing piece.
My 35 year old 50 lbs 150WX2 Marantz power amp has the what they called instant response protection circuits that constantly operates without disturbing play back even when activated. So with today's advanced electronic technology I would think that some AVRs would likely have some kind of limiters built in as a cheap insurance feature the cost of which could be offset by fewer warranty claims. I am just guessing but I do remember one of my smaller AVR did seem to sound compressed at time, when pushed hard.
 
G

Goliath

Full Audioholic
PENG" said:
By the way, how come I have the feeling that you already know the answers before asking the questions?
I've done a fair amount of research and I'm basically bouncing ideas off you guys; essentially I'm looking for reassurance in what I know. I realise that power requirements are dependent on seated distance, the source (Blu-ray, CD), speaker sensitivity and listening habits - an amalgamation of all these things.

Still, on the forums I frequent, every other day I hear about needing THIS amp or THAT amp - that certain amplifiers make certain speakers "sing" or that you need amplifiers with "balls". What interests me is that question. Because it would appear to me that given the wide range of listening habits and seated distances out there, you could almost lob any number in the air and it may or may not be the correct power for your specific needs.

If everybody has unique power requirements then the claim itself that you need a beefy amplifier is almost completely irrelevant. Again, look at speakers like the B&W 800 Diamonds - they have a challenging impedance curve so one might assume that you need a beefy amplifier. But again, what type of levels are we talking about? If I'm using music material that goes down to 30 Hz but my SPL is under 90 dB, and I'm seated 2.5 meters away, which is reasonable, my thinking is that even a poverty spec receiver would sail right through without any problems. Unless there is something I'm missing.

I guess when people keep on saying that low impedance speakers need huge current reserves I wonder how that determination was made without considering all the other variables that determine how much power is actually needed, and listening levels is probably the big one.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I've done a fair amount of research and I'm basically bouncing ideas off you guys; essentially I'm looking for reassurance in what I know. I realise that power requirements are dependent on seated distance, the source (Blu-ray, CD), speaker sensitivity and listening habits - an amalgamation of all these things.

Still, on the forums I frequent, every other day I hear about needing THIS amp or THAT amp - that certain amplifiers make certain speakers "sing" or that you need amplifiers with "balls". What interests me is that question. Because it would appear to me that given the wide range of listening habits and seated distances out there, you could almost lob any number in the air and it may or may not be the correct power for your specific needs.

If everybody has unique power requirements then the claim itself that you need a beefy amplifier is almost completely irrelevant. Again, look at speakers like the B&W 800 Diamonds - they have a challenging impedance curve so one might assume that you need a beefy amplifier. But again, what type of levels are we talking about? If I'm using music material that goes down to 30 Hz but my SPL is under 90 dB, and I'm seated 2.5 meters away, which is reasonable, my thinking is that even a poverty spec receiver would sail right through without any problems. Unless there is something I'm missing.

I guess when people keep on saying that low impedance speakers need huge current reserves I wonder how that determination was made without considering all the other variables that determine how much power is actually needed, and listening levels is probably the big one.
Agree, people tend to exaggerate things to make their points. Instead of car analogy, I would use money. Some people died with billions in the bank that never got used. We all know some rich friends and relatives who have way more than enough money than they need because they don't spend anyway, yet they could not stop working on making more.

Your 800 diamond is a good example in theory. I say in theory because I would think that people who own such speakers probably have a large room and enjoy music with great DR, so a 50W amp probably won't do it. OTOH in my smaller 2 channel room and I enjoy <75 dB average loud, I would not hesitate to power them with my smallest amp or even my old AVR-3805.:D
 
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