How does the sound quality compare between Yamaha RX-Z1 and Outlaw 975?

[AcuDefTechGuy]

But they don't measure better, they measure maybe as well as a PrePro in the processor section. The amps don't really compare. As for all of that EQ stuff, I don't use it. I use a powered sub with EQ in it, and I don't use full-spectrum EQ. A lot of people are like that. The AirPlay point is valid, and wireless streaming has tempted me, but, alas, I'm still a dinosaur who spins CDs!

The difference in the pre-pro section measurement is arguably inaudible.

Yes, bigger amps do have more power output and are stable into 1 ohms, while AVR probably don't. But for most people with 4-8 ohms speakers who listen to less than 90dB from 10ft away most of the time, it doesn't really matter either. If the situation requires, they can always add an external amp.

A lot of people don't own expensive subs with auto Room EQ function. They rely on the EQ functions in the pre-pro or AVR or not at all. Most people own subs that are $500-$1500 and they may have little limited worthless manual EQ functions, but not full-blown auto Room EQ. And regardless of price, I've never seen any Sub with Dynamic EQ function.

 

[RichB]

The difference in the pre-pro section measurement is arguably inaudible.

Whenever, I read a sentence with "arguably", I always replace it with "not" just for fun.
For example, "He is arguably the best tennis player in the world" might be more correct if stated this way: "He is not the best tennis player in the world"

Yes, bigger amps do have more power output and are stable into 1 ohms, while AVR probably don't. But for most people with 4-8 ohms speakers who listen to less than 90dB from 10ft away most of the time, it doesn't really matter either. If the situation requires, they can always add an external amp.

I am sure most well built AVRs are stable into 3 or 4 ohms driving speakers. If stable means, not catching fire or shutting down.
However if sable means providing the required power into load, preserving the frequency response, not clipping, not compressing, and not producing additional harmonics, then the answer is unclear.

A lot of people don't own expensive subs with auto Room EQ function. They rely on the EQ functions in the pre-pro or AVR or not at all.

Absolutely true but to answer the question for a given user requirements is more complicated. Thus the guidelines.

- Rich

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Whenever, I read a sentence with "arguably", I always replace it with "not" just for fun.
For example, "He is arguably the best tennis player in the world" might be more correct if stated this way: "He is not the best tennis player in the world"

"Arguably" and "Equivocally" just means people are being polite and PC about it. What they really mean to say is that it is unequivocal, as in "the difference in crosstalk, SNR, FR, etc., is unequivocally inaudible".

I am sure most well built AVRs are stable into 3 or 4 ohms driving speakers. If stable means, not catching fire or shutting down.
However if sable means providing the required power into load, preserving the frequency response, not clipping, not compressing, and not producing additional harmonics, then the answer is unclear.

The AVR are tested with constant 4 ohms load, not variable loads from 4ohm-32ohm. So they are in fact stable and documented. They don't clip or compress. Most importantly, they sound as good as any separate amp unequivocally proven in double-blinded studies, not a bunch of internet hearsay claiming all kinds of things and sticking "level matched" to it like a stamp.

 

[RichB]

"Arguably" and "Equivocally" just means people are being polite and PC about it. What they really mean to say is that it is unequivocal, as in "the difference in crosstalk, SNR, FR, etc., is unequivocally inaudible".

I believe that the AH amplifier video is not consistent with this viewpoint. They measure differently and they can but may not sound differently is a reasonable position.

"
The AVR are tested with constant 4 ohms load, not variable loads from 4ohm-32ohm. So they are in fact stable and documented. They don't clip or compress. Most importantly, they sound as good as any separate amp unequivocally proven in double-blinded studies, not a bunch of internet hearsay claiming all kinds of things and sticking "level matched" to it like a stamp.

Since speakers are not constant 4 ohms loads, these measurements are interesting but not determinative.

There are SBT/DBT that have shown differences.
I am not an evangelist for AVR's versus Amps but if asked I look at each systems requirements to make recommendations.

On the web, generally, I do not make recommendations, but if a demanding user has reason to believe the amp may be an issue, then an amp is a safer choice.

There are many on this forum that have made safe choices to avoid limiting there system performance.
Since I am one such person, I do not go out of my way to dissuade other from making similar and IMO rational decisions.

- Rich

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Since speakers are not constant 4 ohms loads, these measurements are interesting but not determinative.

Constant 4 ohms load is a lot more difficult than variable load where 8 ohms is the nominal.

So if an AVR can output 225W RMS into a constant 4 ohm load, it can handle a speaker that is 4-8 ohm nominal.

Most speakers are 8 ohms nominal, so the same AVR can handle most speakers just fine.

That is why most people only use AVRs without any kind of issues.

Why, if my Denon 3312 can sound fabulous in a 12,000 C.F. room using Direct mode 2.0 powering a pair of speakers than go down to 2.6 ohms, it must be okay for most people in their 16' x 18' rooms.

 

[RichB]

Constant 4 ohms load is a lot more difficult than variable load where 8 ohms is the nominal.
So if an AVR can output 225W RMS into a constant 4 ohm load, it can handle a speaker that is 4-8 ohm nominal.

Phase angles matter. Nominal is not well defined. There are nominal 8 ohms speakers that dip to 3 ohms at some frequencies.
Frequency sweeps may not be a more difficult load than for a speaker when you play music that stresses the amp.

Most speakers are 8 ohms nominal, so the same AVR can handle most speakers just fine.
That is why most people only use AVRs without any kind of issues.

There are many reasons that they may not have any kind of issue, mostly covered by the AH amp guidelines.

I have a hard time hearing amplifier induced compression.
That would require speakers that are capable, somewhat hard to drive, and a point of reference which are rare.

- Rich

 

[3db]

But they don't measure better, they measure maybe as well as a PrePro in the processor section. The amps don't really compare. As for all of that EQ stuff, I don't use it. I use a powered sub with EQ in it, and I don't use full-spectrum EQ. A lot of people are like that. The AirPlay point is valid, and wireless streaming has tempted me, but, alas, I'm still a dinosaur who spins CDs!

I'm just wondering if you missed this review on Yamaha's AVR, particularily Yamaha RX-A3000 Aventage 11.2 Networking A/V Receiver Review | Audioholics where it performs as well as an Emotiva power amp? Don't be so quick to discount the high end AVRs' power delivery. They are packing power.

 

[3db]

I would like to see a list of Prepros that measure better than Yamaha's RXA10/20/30 series pre/pro sections in their AVR? It will be a very tough find I suspect and most likely very cost prohibitive.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Phase angles matter. Nominal is not well defined. There are nominal 8 ohms speakers that dip to 3 ohms at some frequencies.
Frequency sweeps may not be a more difficult load than for a speaker when you play music that stresses the amp.


There are many reasons that they may not have any kind of issue, mostly covered by the AH amp guidelines.

I have a hard time hearing amplifier induced compression.
That would require speakers that are capable, somewhat hard to drive, and a point of reference which are rare.

- Rich

The Focal has a min impedance of 2.6 ohms and phase angle of almost 60 degrees. My Denon 3312 has no problem in my 12,000 c.f. room at 93dB volume.

Real music with variable impedance is not more difficult than a constant 4 ohm sweep. Constant continuous 4 ohm.

 

[3db]

To the OP.. if you don't need the feature sets of the higher end Yammies, get the Outlaw.

 

[RichB]

The Focal has a min impedance of 2.6 ohms and phase angle of almost 60 degrees. My Denon 3312 has no problem in my 12,000 c.f. room at 93dB volume.

Real music with variable impedance is not more difficult than a constant 4 ohm sweep. Constant continuous 4 ohm.

Are you saying that an amp that can handle a resistive load with a sweep, can drive a Focal with minimum impedance of 2.6 ohms without clipping or compressing? How can you tell when an amplifier is compressing the sound due to lack of power on a musical peak?

Out of curiosity, what score did you get on the AH amplifier test for this system?

- Rich

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Are you saying that an amp that can handle a resistive load with a sweep, can drive a Focal with minimum impedance of 2.6 ohms without clipping or compressing? How can you tell when an amplifier is compressing the sound due to lack of power on a musical peak?

Out of curiosity, what score did you get on the AH amplifier test for this system?

- Rich

How can I tell if my Denon is clipping or compressing driving a pair of Focal that has a 2.6 ohms min impedance & almost 60 degrees phase angle (in a 12,000 C.F room)?

I don't even worry about it as long as the music sounds fabulous.

I just enjoy the movies and music and not worry at all about any scores.

The only score I think about is the IMDB score. If the movie has a score below 6.0, I don't even want to watch it.

 

[Irvrobinson]

I'm just wondering if you missed this review on Yamaha's AVR, particularily Yamaha RX-A3000 Aventage 11.2 Networking A/V Receiver Review | Audioholics where it performs as well as an Emotiva power amp? Don't be so quick to discount the high end AVRs' power delivery. They are packing power.

Where did I discount high-end AVR power delivery? I just don't care for the form factor at all, a massive 11.2 receiver for $1800. It is just a preference; I don't care for AVRs. I've been pretty consistent for 30 years or more; I didn't care for my brother's Marantz 2500 back then either. My concerns posted previously about corner-cutting and compromises stand. Personally, I think the Yamaha is an awesome example of the species, just as the Marantz 2500/2600s were in their day. I just don't prefer the entire species, even though I think the argument is stronger now (because of features, as ADTG pointed out, that are more expensive or impossible to buy for a similar price in a pre-pro package). I don't think I'm being an elitist snob either (well, at least not this time), I just like the pre-pro/amp form factor strategy better for engineering reasons that have been discussed ad nauseam. And as someone who has worked in product development for decades, I'm the first to admit that great execution can beat a better strategy, hence products like the Yamaha. That doesn't mean I'd personally recommend it.

 

[Irvrobinson]

I would like to see a list of Prepros that measure better than Yamaha's RXA10/20/30 series pre/pro sections in their AVR? It will be a very tough find I suspect and most likely very cost prohibitive.

Yup, and this, IMO, is the real argument for one of these receivers. If you want the signal processing they're the most cost-effective solution available.

 

[3db]

Where did I discount high-end AVR power delivery? I just don't care for the form factor at all, a massive 11.2 receiver for $1800. It is just a preference; I don't care for AVRs. I've been pretty consistent for 30 years or more; I didn't care for my brother's Marantz 2500 back then either. My concerns posted previously about corner-cutting and compromises stand. Personally, I think the Yamaha is an awesome example of the species, just as the Marantz 2500/2600s were in their day. I just don't prefer the entire species, even though I think the argument is stronger now (because of features, as ADTG pointed out, that are more expensive or impossible to buy for a similar price in a pre-pro package). I don't think I'm being an elitist snob either (well, at least not this time), I just like the pre-pro/amp form factor strategy better for engineering reasons that have been discussed ad nauseam. And as someone who has worked in product development for decades, I'm the first to admit that great execution can beat a better strategy, hence products like the Yamaha. That doesn't mean I'd personally recommend it.

One cannot argue personal preferences.

 

[PENG]

To the OP.. if you don't need the feature sets of the higher end Yammies, get the Outlaw.

I have said pretty much the same to him two to three times already, let's see what he's going to do in the end.

 

[PENG]

I'm just wondering if you missed this review on Yamaha's AVR, particularily Yamaha RX-A3000 Aventage 11.2 Networking A/V Receiver Review | Audioholics where it performs as well as an Emotiva power amp? Don't be so quick to discount the high end AVRs' power delivery. They are packing power.

I have to agree, the Denon 4311, 4520, and the flag ship Onkyo/Integra pack even slightly more power, though all within a dB or so they are virtually equal in terms of output.

 

[Tidan]

I pulled the trigger today on the outlaw 975/7125 combo. I'm really hoping it will sound comparable to my old Yamaha Z1. The Pioneer Elite I'm using right now doesn't...I think its a great unit but it just doesn't provide the detail and realism I had with the Z1.
Worst case scenerio, if the 975 doesn't sound up to my standard, I'll return it and look into getting the Yamaha 2020 or 3020 (both last years model and selling for much less), or the Marantz 6008 or 7007 I guess.
I'll report back with my findings.

 

[sharkman]

Are you saying that an amp that can handle a resistive load with a sweep, can drive a Focal with minimum impedance of 2.6 ohms without clipping or compressing? How can you tell when an amplifier is compressing the sound due to lack of power on a musical peak?

Out of curiosity, what score did you get on the AH amplifier test for this system?

- Rich

Good point, its easy to make generalizations but if you aren't even familiar with when an AVR reaches its limitations, then the assumptions made are suspect.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Good point, its easy to make generalizations but if you aren't even familiar with when an AVR reaches its limitations, then the assumptions made are suspect.

Limitations? That's what amp measurements are for. If an amp outputs 225W into a constant continuous 4 ohms load at 1% THD, then that is the limit.

We are not making any assumptions about the AVR's power output limitation.