Houston, one of my Revel Salon's may have a problem

[RichB]

I can see the future and I see JTR speakers in RichB's future
I dare Rich to play speakers like Noelis 210 at full throttle

I have a future
Maybe if I arrive someday, I'll give 8T's a listen.

- Rich

 

[Irvrobinson]

I got a chance to run the tone tests and everything sounded good except the right salon mid-range.

Playing a 1 kHz tone, I found the right-channel to be less clean and then, duh, it occurred to me to break out the OmniMic2.

There are significantly higher harmonics at 2K, 3.2K, and 4K on the right channel.
Spectrum analysis are attached.

All Other tones were clean on both speakers.

Thanks again,

Rich

Nicely done! I was silently betting on the mid-bass driver, which takes most of the power and needs some serious excursion, but I think this is definitive proof that I guessed incorrectly. Ya gotta love measured data.

 

[RichB]

Nicely done! I was silently betting on the mid-bass driver, which takes most of the power and needs some serious excursion, but I think this is definitive proof that I guessed incorrectly. Ya gotta love measured data.

Now, I have to see if Revel stocks replacement drivers. :Fingers Crossed:

- Rich

 

[walter duque]

Yeah, I figured one of the drivers was blown too, but debugging a design as complex as the Salon1 over the internet is foolhardy. Rich has been a really bad boy, feeding these speakers at least 500W per channel at times (he's seen the clipping warning light illuminate on an ATI AT3000). I'm not surprised that he's over-driven one of the drivers. I'm not a betting man, which is why I recommended test tones to figure out which one.

I think the amps where clipping and thats why the drivers blew (not enough headroom). I have listened to the Salons with 2k watt MC mono blocks at full throttle and nothing blew, they sure sounded great that's for sure. And they can take 2k watts of clean power. Max power ratings on speakers to me doesn't mean nothing. My last center had a max power rating of 220 or 250 watts and I bi-amped it with (2) 500 watt channels at 4 ohms (3 db headroom on amps) and never blew anything, I am also know to play my system a little on the heavy side. I went overboard once and blew a tweeter a few years back, New Years Eve turned everything up to max. and there it went. I don't blame my self, I blame the Guinness.

 

[Irvrobinson]

I don't blame myself, I blame the Guinness.

I think Rich is being bad unaided by fermented grains or fruit.

 

[RichB]

I think Rich is being bad unaided by fermented grains or fruit.

I was not. Usually, I find moments when the wife and kids are away for Rich to play

Concerning wine, friends and I make Zin and Cabernet. The Fermentation begins late September/early October
This hobby is completely unrelated to the destruction of my mid-range

- Rich

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I was not. Usually, I find moments when the wife and kids are away for Rich to play

Concerning wine, friends and I make Zin and Cabernet. The Fermentation begins late September/early October
This hobby is completely unrelated to the destruction of my mid-range

- Rich

Seriously, how loud do you listen and from what distance?

 

[RichB]

Seriously, how loud do you listen and from what distance?

Like most people in the mid 70 DB range. In my case, sitting 15 feet in a 30+ foot room.
The back of the room has an 8 foot opening to a 16 foot room and the left has a 16 foot opening to the dining/kitchen area.

Like a great sportscar, a find it can be enjoyable to drive the system high. Then I would say low 90's average on a slow meter.
The Radio Shack meter measures considerable lower than the Omni-Mic so I expect that some are actually listening louder than it would indicate.

The mid-range may have been damaged when testing a track that was causing a friend Focal 1080be midrange to distort (pretty badly): Alison Kraus' "Lie Awake".
I was purposely pushing it beyond normal and I actually shut down the front-right channel on the A51.
Walter may have a point about clipping as a contributor.

- Rich

 

[walter duque]

Like most people in the mid 70 DB range. In my case, sitting 15 feet in a 30+ foot room.
The back of the room has an 8 foot opening to a 16 foot room and the left has a 16 foot opening to the dining/kitchen area.

Like a great sportscar, a find it can be enjoyable to drive the system high. Then I would say low 90's average on a slow meter.
The Radio Shack meter measures considerable lower than the Omni-Mic so I expect that some are actually listening louder than it would indicate.

The mid-range may have been damaged when testing a track that was causing a friend Focal 1080be midrange to distort (pretty badly): Alison Kraus' "Lie Awake".
I was purposely pushing it beyond normal and I actually shut down the front-right channel on the A51.
Walter may have a point about clipping as a contributor.

- Rich

No matter how much power you've got you can always drive your amps into clipping mode. I have 8 channels of 350 watts@8 ohms (500 watts@4 ohm) with 3 db head room and 2 channels of 500 watts@8 ohm (800 watts@4 ohms) and I still manage to go into the danger zone unless the circuit breaker gives in first. My wife is out tonight, I am getting a few Guinness and we're on the way to sonic heaven. BTW my speaker builder does make my speakers to be Walter proof so blowing them is a slight chance. I don't think too many off the shelf speakers could withstand my abuse. I just love to torture my equipment.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Like most people in the mid 70 DB range. In my case, sitting 15 feet in a 30+ foot room.
The back of the room has an 8 foot opening to a 16 foot room and the left has a 16 foot opening to the dining/kitchen area.

For speakers, the only thing that matters is the listening distance. The adjoining opening space is not a factor. It could be outdoors and the only thing that significantly matters is the listen distance.

Like a great sportscar, a find it can be enjoyable to drive the system high. Then I would say low 90's average on a slow meter.
The Radio Shack meter measures considerable lower than the Omni-Mic so I expect that some are actually listening louder than it would indicate.

Yeah, I threw away that crappy Radio SPL a long time ago.

The mid-range may have been damaged when testing a track that was causing a friend Focal 1080be midrange to distort (pretty badly): Alison Kraus' "Lie Awake".
I was purposely pushing it beyond normal and I actually shut down the front-right channel on the A51.
Walter may have a point about clipping as a contributor.

If the damage is due to clipping, then I wonder why didn't all the other midrange drivers and especially tweeters blow? The beryllium tweeter is probably more fragile than all the titanium midrange drivers. Only a single midrange driver blow.

Was the damaged Salon also connected to the front right channel on the A51?

I'm thinking either the salon driver was defective and it just finally gave up or the right front channel of the A51 is defective and it caused distortion to both the Focal and a Salon. Good thing it didn't damage the Focal.

I've listened to peaks of 107dB before. But usually only 95dB peaks. This is from 12' in my HT room and 15' in my family room.

 

[Irvrobinson]

My wife is out tonight, I am getting a few Guinness and we're on the way to sonic heaven.

There you go again. Be careful!

 

[RichB]

If the damage is due to clipping, then I wonder why didn't all the other midrange drivers and especially tweeters blow? The beryllium tweeter is probably more fragile than all the titanium midrange drivers. Only a single midrange driver blow.

The Salon1's use titanium tweeters, still it makes sense that they would go first.
It could be the female vocal placed the power there.

Was the damaged Salon also connected to the front right channel on the A51?

Yes.

I'm thinking either the salon driver was defective and it just finally gave up or the right front channel of the A51 is defective and it caused distortion to both the Focal and a Salon. Good thing it didn't damage the Focal.

We first heard this on my friends Focal at his house using the Denon Companion amp to the AVP. He upgraded to pair of JC-1 mono-blocks and the distortion occurred. My A51 was never connected to his Focals.

- Rich

 

[walter duque]

There you go again. Be careful!

No posts tonight, I don't want to get into any major trouble here on AH.

 

[walter duque]

For speakers, the only thing that matters is the listening distance. The adjoining opening space is not a factor. It could be outdoors and the only thing that significantly matters is the listen distance.



Yeah, I threw away that crappy Radio SPL a long time ago.



If the damage is due to clipping, then I wonder why didn't all the other midrange drivers and especially tweeters blow? The beryllium tweeter is probably more fragile than all the titanium midrange drivers. Only a single midrange driver blow.

Was the damaged Salon also connected to the front right channel on the A51?

I'm thinking either the salon driver was defective and it just finally gave up or the right front channel of the A51 is defective and it caused distortion to both the Focal and a Salon. Good thing it didn't damage the Focal.

I've listened to peaks of 107dB before. But usually only 95dB peaks. This is from 12' in my HT room and 15' in my family room.

Has to be a defective driver. I can crank to my system at 110 db+ all day long at a listening distance of about 10-12 feet (not sure right now would have to measure) Could it have to do anything with the crossover??

 

[Irvrobinson]

No posts tonight, I don't want to get into any major trouble here on AH.

We don't care. Some Guinness might make you more fun than the rest of us.

 

[walter duque]

We don't care. Some Guinness might make you more fun than the rest of us.

I am gonna watch Expendables 3 which I've had for about a month now. No more posts tonight. Wife came back early and she is making me watch it.

 

[RichB]

From AVSForum:

Rich B.

I've already had to replace the midranges in my Salons and Voice.. Mine failed in exactly the same way. Although they aren't likely to come right out and admit it, it's a known weakness with the model. I'm not exactly sure what the issue is, and they don't seem to want to share that info. Last time I checked the midrange replacements were available, but they aren't cheap ($300+ if I recall correctly).. For a while they were "unobtainium" while they came up with replacements, but I think that hurdle has been overcome. So far so good with my replacements, but the swap was a bit more of a PITA than I was hoping for. The double sided foam sealing tape was more of a challenge than I'd hoped. But, once they are out, if you are good with a soldering iron, you won't likely have any issues. (my soldering skills are crap..)

Best of luck!

The Revel Voice has the same 4" midrange.
I called Revel and ordered two replacement midranges for $280 total since they recommended upgrading them in pairs.

A couple of years ago, it took 8 months to get the Voice Center Channel midrange since they moved the production (to China, I think).
After pressing on the right-midrange it exhibits the same scratching noise that my Voice midrange did. Apparently, the glue (or something) breaks down and bollixes up the works.
From an earlier call to Revel, I was told that all Voice midrange drivers will fail eventually.
So this problem may not have been my fault.

I have a couple of EE friends that will assist in the procedure and my surgical sheet with a whole cut to expose target area

Thank to all for the support,

Rich

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I was told that all Voice midrange drivers will fail eventually.

Well that sucks.

All Voice midrange drivers will fail eventually even if you only listen to 70-80dB most of the time and max out at 95dB occasionally and use 2.1 mode with at least one subwoofer?

That doesn't seem like good engineering.

 

[Irvrobinson]

That doesn't seem like good engineering.

Adhesives are tricky materials. Sometimes you don't have the R&D budget to predict every aging scenario for every new usage, especially in consumer products. Several years ago GM got too creative trying to save weight on C6 Corvettes, and on the Coupe version used adhesives to glue a composite plastic skin to a magnesium frame for the painted removable roof. The adhesive didn't quite work as planned, and failed, usually just causing one edge to pop up, but occasionally at high speeds an entire roof panel would break free. That was jokingly called "flying roof syndrome".

On the other hand, I would expect free replacement drivers for original owners. $280/pair is a pricey fix for an engineering failure.

 

[RichB]

On the other hand, I would expect free replacement drivers for original owners. $280/pair is a pricey fix for an engineering failure.

There is not official word on that. A couple of years ago the tech told me all of them will eventually fail.
They gave me the midrange for free. It would be nice to get them for free but that is not bad for a 13 year old speakers and they are priced better than the tweeters

The failing midrange was harder to move, could that have been a factor in the amp channel shutting down?

- Rich