Houston, one of my Revel Salon's may have a problem

[MidnightSensi2]

Far Eastern speaker drivers in general, yes. This is a high priced speaker and this number of failures is a disgrace.

I agree - this is not good.

We have three failures for one customer here. So draw you own conclusions.

Well, since this is driver three I'd imagine it's not a driver problem, it might be something with the crossover.

I certainly think members here should be more discerning in their purchases. I would consider owning very few of the products hyped here.

I think I see what you're getting at, but, would need more elaboration to really form a response.

..

Are the speakers under warranty?

 

[TLS Guy]

I agree - this is not good.



Well, since this is driver three I'd imagine it's not a driver problem, it might be something with the crossover.



I think I see what you're getting at, but, would need more elaboration to really form a response.

..

Are the speakers under warranty?

Its not the crossover. This last driver arrived with gap rub!

Warranty won't help if there are no old drivers and these new ones, likely made in a new fly by night Chinese shed have a different spec, and quite likely every driver having a different spec.

By discerning, I mean trying to make a useful assessment of longevity.

European drivers from major speaker makes and driver builders such as SEAS and Scanspeak, have a known track record for reliability and consistency.

So are you going to buy a speaker sources with Far Eastern drivers, or one sourced from a house like SEAS. For me the decision would be an easy one.

I drive my rig pretty hard at times. I do not anticipate a high likely hood of failure. That is because I sourced my components appropriately.

I have KEF B139 drivers I have used hard and almost certainly exceeded their published power ratings at times. No failures in 40 years.

Lack of corporate integrity and probity coupled with a daft design are the two principal route causes of the OPs problem.

 

[Steve81]

I guess it's a good thing I read through this since the F206 was only my list for a possible upgrade. Sorry to hear about your troubles Rich.

 

[MidnightSensi2]

Its not the crossover. This last driver arrived with gap rub!

Nod. Is Revel aware? They should be making this right.

My Epson projector had a dust ball.. I sent it in, when it got back, another dust ball... I sent it in again, the second time they fixed it. I wasn't happy, but, they eventually fixed it correctly.

Warranty won't help if there are no old drivers and these new ones, likely made in a new fly by night Chinese shed have a different spec, and quite likely every driver having a different spec.

Well, being in warranty should make things easier for repairs - although what revel SHOULD be doing is either a) sending a new speaker or b) sending shipping materials to take the /entire speaker/ and go through QC on it so that when they send it back, the problem doesn't happen again.

Also, having one driver be different than the other speakers isn't ideal - even if it roughly matches. I mean, with higher quality studio monitors they even match the individual drivers on the same line!

Lack of corporate integrity and probity coupled with a daft design are the two principal route causes of the OPs problem.

Well, I'm going to reserve judgement of Revel until they've been given a chance to make it right. Otherwise we'll start linking to them from this thread and push this up the search engines lol.

 

[RichB]

I agree - this is not good.

Well, since this is driver three I'd imagine it's not a driver problem, it might be something with the crossover.

Are the speakers under warranty?

The speakers are no longer under warranty.

The Salon1 and Voice1 use the same midrange. A couple of years ago the support tech told me that eventually they would all fail (I think he was not supposed to say that ).
Two years ago the midrange went on the Voice, Revel replaced it free.
A little over a month ago, a midrange started to sound bad in the right Salon.
When you press on the driver, it has a scratching sound. This happened with both failures.

Revel recommended replacing the midranges in pairs so I did.
Unfortunately, the foam turns into glue over the years and there is no way to remove the drivers without destroying them or the cabinet.
So, I was forced to destroy the good midrange.
The new failure is different. It sounds like the dome is loose and creating other tones. The other problem was something that took years to occur.
The new midrange is a quality issue that should not occur.

I am still waiting on a response from Revel but I think they are in CA.

- Rich

 

[MidnightSensi2]

The speakers are no longer under warranty.

The Salon1 and Voice1 use the same midrange. A couple of years ago the support tech told me that eventually they would all fail (I think he was not supposed to say that ).
Two years ago the midrange went on the Voice, Revel replaced it free.
A little over a month ago, a midrange started to sound bad in the right Salon.
When you press on the driver, it has a scratching sound. This happened with the both failures.

Revel recommended replacing the midranges in pairs so I did.
Unfortunately, the foam turns into glue over the years and there is no way to remove the drivers without destroying them or the cabinet.
So, I was forced to destroy the good midrange.
The new failure is different. It sounds like the dome is loose and creating other tones. The other problem was something that took years to occur.
The new midrange is a quality issue that should not occur.

I am still waiting on a response from Revel but I think they are in CA.

- Rich

Interesting. There is an implied warranty as well as the manufacturers warranty:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Implied_warranty
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Implied_warranty#United_States_2

This is a mechanical flaw by the manufacturer. It's not you, and, you're being a sport installing drivers and such - when they should be doing all this.

I'm not a lawyer, but, I think speakers are pretty cut and dry in terms of implied warranty.

But, let's see if they make it right on their own. I'd avoid legal speak until it becomes necessary.

 

[RichB]

^^^
There 13 years old, so I am not sure how wear fits this.

I got off the phone with Revel and they are shipping me a new Midrange 2'nd day (I could not get overnight).

This time we are using quick disconnects and not soldering (other than removing the old solder).
My friend tells me they are better than soldering since they use them on airplanes.
Is this a good way to go?

- Rich

 

[Rickster71]

Most drivers accept a female spade connector: TE Connectivity - 60249-1 - Crimp Terminals, Lugs and Wire Nuts - Crimp Terminals - Allied Electronics

Or this: TE Connectivity - 4-520448-2 - Crimp Terminals, Lugs and Wire Nuts - Crimp Terminals - Allied Electronics

 

[TLS Guy]

^^^
There 13 years old, so I am not sure how wear fits this.

I got off the phone with Revel and they are shipping me a new Midrange 2'nd day (I could not get overnight).

This time we are using quick disconnects and not soldering (other than removing the old solder).
My friend tells me they are better than soldering since they use them on airplanes.
Is this a good way to go?

- Rich

I don't think it matters much. I find solder joints don't fail and spades can, due to falling off and above all oxidation. But in general either is fine.

 

[RichB]

I don't think it matters much. I find solder joints don't fail and spades can, due to falling off and above all oxidation. But in general either is fine.

Hmm. I'll just solder them then.

- Rich

 

[Rickster71]

I don't think it matters much. I find solder joints don't fail and spades can, due to falling off and above all oxidation. But in general either is fine.

Great point Doc.
Home electronics I use: Deoxit DeoxIT® D-Series
Out in the field: Noalox Anti-Oxidant Compound

 

[Irvrobinson]

High priced Chinese junk. Note to self, do not recommend. Avoid!

Not to defend Harman's behavior lately, because their strategy of moving production to low-cost countries is not exactly endearing themselves to me, but the Salon1 was not Chinese high-priced junk in 2000. Actually, it was a very high quality design using full-custom, in-house manufactured drivers. I think the root cause of Rich's problem is that Harman, like B&W, to name another one, likes to use the latest materials and technology for custom drivers, and sometimes new means unproven, and aging effects get lost in the quality shuffle. When the first generation Salon series went out of production in 2006 I'd guess Revel manufactured a calculated number of extra drivers for inventory based on warranty history and total number of systems sold, and years later, after in-house production ceased, they found out every midrange driver in every first generation system was eventually going to fail. Imagine the first engineer reporting that little tidbit to senior management. Seeing how Harman thinks lately I doubt they even considered restarting in-house production of an obsolete driver, so naturally they went to a jobber. I'd also guess their budget for this project was pretty limited, but given that the Salon series is a prestige product they probably didn't want to piss off those owners by just walking away. So, I'm guessing the current design and administration staff in Northridge are left trying to keep up the brand image without sufficient budget, so they're stuck with suppliers who'll try to follow high-priced specs for cheap, on a design they've never built before, and the in-house guys failed the last time they tried. I can't imagine that's an easy job.

This does make me wonder about what'll happen someday to my Salon2s when they go out of production. Every driver is in-house, full-custom. In ten years, if I keep them, I may have a pair of 175lb paper weights on my hands. Oh well, they sound so good I suppose it's worth it. I've heard the ATC competition several times, the $22K/pair SCM150ASL, and they don't sound nearly as good. I'm sure the SCM150s will last longer, maybe a lot longer, but unfortunately sometimes to get the best you need to take some risks.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Harman is a very different company than when I bought my Revels in 2009. Production was in CA, Sidney was in charge. I doubt I'd make the same choice today, just as I wouldn't with a Mark Levinson brand that is letting ATI do some of the amps. It makes me wonder how Crown is faring.

At least ATI make amps in California. Better than to have a another Chinese company make amps for Mark Levinson.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I've heard the ATC competition several times, the $22K/pair SCM150ASL, and they don't sound nearly as good. I'm sure the SCM150s will last longer, maybe a lot longer, but unfortunately sometimes to get the best you need to take some risks.

Absolutely nothing great sounding about ATC. Their $1K bookshelf sound as good as the NHT SuperZero. I know.

 

[RichB]

I'd also guess their budget for this project was pretty limited, but given that the Salon series is a prestige product they probably didn't want to piss off those owners by just walking away. So, I'm guessing the current design and administration staff in Northridge are left trying to keep up the brand image without sufficient budget, so they're stuck with suppliers who'll try to follow high-priced specs for cheap, on a design they've never built before, and the in-house guys failed the last time they tried. I can't imagine that's an easy job.

It is interesting that the Voice replacement and new replacement are different designs. I'll take pictures when the new midrange comes in.
Perhaps the new midrange is built off the Salon2 line.
In either case, with the first replacement, it took six months and there were delays during testing.

The question is, how to treat the new midrange. Should I drive them hard from time to time to make sure they are solid or baby them from now on?

- Rich

 

[TLS Guy]

It is interesting that the Voice replacement and new replacement are different designs. I'll take pictures when the new midrange comes in.
Perhaps the new midrange is built off the Salon2 line.
In either case, with the first replacement, it took six months and there were delays during testing.

The question is, how to treat the new midrange. Should I drive them hard from time to time to make sure they are solid or baby them from now on?

- Rich

I think the first issue is how different those drivers are in terms of sensitivity and acoustic response.

The fact that they want you to change both drivers should be real cause for concern.

The issue remains that those driver are crossed far too low for a mid range driver and I suspect this is a major root cause for the failure of these drivers.

So I would always treat them VERY gently.

Your other option is to totally reconfigure them with a different crossover and possibly a different mid range driver.

If I wanted to keep them, then I would make them at least semi active. I would raise the crossover to 350 Hz, and use the upper woofer for BSC compensation also.

I would try and get down to one mid range and aim to cross to the tweeter in the 3.5 to 4K range.

Done right, you would have a high powered monitor.

 

[Irvrobinson]

The issue remains that those driver are crossed far too low for a mid range driver and I suspect this is a major root cause for the failure of these drivers.

So I would always treat them VERY gently.

Your other option is to totally reconfigure them with a different crossover and possibly a different mid range driver.

If I wanted to keep them, then I would make them at least semi active. I would raise the crossover to 350 Hz, and use the upper woofer for BSC compensation also.

I would try and get down to one mid range and aim to cross to the tweeter in the 3.5 to 4K range.

Done right, you would have a high powered monitor.

I don't buy that this is a crossover problem for a second. The root cause is a materials aging problem. Rich drove that speaker hard for years before it started misbehaving.

As for your other suggestions about changing the crossover and the driver, you've got to be kidding. Maybe you are capable of re-engineering such a complex speaker, but I doubt the rest of us are.

Rich, if I were you I'd get it fixed and sell the Salon1s. The evidence is that Harman has replacement parts quality and supply problems. TLSGuy is right about the pair-replacment strategy being a cause for concern. I'd escape while you can.

 

[RichB]

I don't buy that this is a crossover problem for a second. The root cause is a materials aging problem. Rich drove that speaker hard for years before it started misbehaving.

As for your other suggestions about changing the crossover and the driver, you've got to be kidding. Maybe you are capable of re-engineering such a complex speaker, but I doubt the rest of us are.

Rich, if I were you I'd get it fixed and sell the Salon1s. The evidence is that Harman has replacement parts quality and supply problems. TLSGuy is right about the pair-replacment strategy being a cause for concern. I'd escape while you can.

Yeah, there is no way I am up to re-engineering the Salon1's.

I have gotten pretty good at replacing the midrange. I think I'll put them through their paces and see if I just got unlucky.

- Rich

 

[TLS Guy]

I don't buy that this is a crossover problem for a second. The root cause is a materials aging problem. Rich drove that speaker hard for years before it started misbehaving.

As for your other suggestions about changing the crossover and the driver, you've got to be kidding. Maybe you are capable of re-engineering such a complex speaker, but I doubt the rest of us are.

Rich, if I were you I'd get it fixed and sell the Salon1s. The evidence is that Harman has replacement parts quality and supply problems. TLSGuy is right about the pair-replacment strategy being a cause for concern. I'd escape while you can.

I agree a re engineering is a major task, and not undertaken lightly.

I stand by the fact that the crossover points are almost certainly a major factor in these failures.

Here is the power response versus frequency.

So look at the added power demands on the mid range driver with a crossover at 150 Hz versus 350 or 400 Hz.

In fact this is worse than it looks, as in the design in question, the mid range driver is going to be taking the lions share of BSC so that the power to that mid will be going up first order from around 550 HZ. So the power demands on that driver are huge.

In essence if you think about it, this speaker is really a bookshelf speaker with small drivers, on top of a sub with 8" drivers.

Actually, I think it is a tribute to the build of that driver that it sustains that punishment as long as it does.

You are entitled to your opinion as I am mine. I maintain and believe strongly that the design considerations for this speaker were not prudent with regards to long term reliability. They are choices I would never have made.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I stand by the fact that the crossover points are almost certainly a major factor in these failures.

I don't buy that this is a crossover problem for a second.

If the crossover were the problem (design flaw), a lot more Salon would have malfunctioned. And certainly more than on just a single speaker.

Why didn't both speakers' midrange drivers malfunction, instead of just that one speaker?