Home Theater Systems VS. Music Systems

Sheep

Sheep

Audioholic Warlord
MacManNM said:
Sheep you have to understand that when Buck and I were younger, most of the really good speakers were sealed enclosures. When we went around listening to speakers we both could pick out the bass reflex units in a millisecond.

In general, a vented enclosure is designed to artificially enhance the low frequency extension of a speaker. The most accurate design for speakers is an infinite baffle design. The sealed enclosure is closer than a vented enclosure to that design. Buck isn't saying that vented speakers are junk. If you were to take comments of equal quality, build them into speakers, one set vented, one set sealed, and the other in an infinite baffle. The IB would be the most accurate; the sealed would be 2nd, and the vented 3rd. The fact is that sealed enclosures have a very predictable bass roll off, compensating for this is very easy.


Also, music really doesn't go below 30Hz (unless you are listening to some pipe organ or really wild electronic stuff), so why have a speaker that can play below that for music? All it is doing is wasting power reproducing things that aren't supposed to be there IE distortion from the components, and its own distortions.
Yes, but who has room for IB speakers :p

Ok, even better. Music doesn't go below 30hz. So your saying movie subwoofer would make music boomy. That SVS I posted above has 1.13% THD @31.5hz @100dB. Why am I saying this? This subwoofer is capable of accurate music, and movie playback.

Velodyne DD18. 4% THD @16hz @100dB, and it gets better the higher you go. Another subwoofer fit for music and movies. This Myth is just that, a Myth. Subwoofers can do both, stop maiking people waste their money :p

Sheep
 
MacManNM

MacManNM

Banned
Speed

Here is the definition from “ Handbook for Sound Engineers” first edition.


Speed is the rate of increase of distance traveled by a body. Average speed is found by the equation

S=l/t

S is the speed
L is the length or distance
T is the time to travel

Speed is a scalar quantity because it is not referenced to direction. Instantaneous speed =dl/dt Velocity is the rate of increase of distance transversed by a body in a particular direction. Velocity is a vector quantity as both speed and direction are indicated. The l/t can often be the same for the velocity and speed of an object: however, when speed is given the direction of movement is not known. If a body describes a circular path and each successive equal distances along the path are described in equal times, the speed would be constant, but the velocity would constantly change due to the change in direction.



This means absolutely nothing when describing the sound of speakers.
 
MacManNM

MacManNM

Banned
Sheep said:
Yes, but who has room for IB speakers :p

Ok, even better. Music doesn't go below 30hz. So your saying movie subwoofer would make music boomy. That SVS I posted above has 1.13% THD @31.5hz @100dB. Why am I saying this? This subwoofer is capable of accurate music, and movie playback.

Velodyne DD18. 4% THD @16hz @100dB, and it gets better the higher you go. Another subwoofer fit for music and movies. This Myth is just that, a Myth. Subwoofers can do both, stop maiking people waste their money :p

Sheep

I said no such thing. I simply stated that in general sealed units tend to be inherently more accurate due to the design characteristics, nothing more nothing less. You can spout numbers for the SVS or any other sub you like, they are meaningless for this conversation. Music content must be played and then measurements must be made with multiple frequencies going to the driver at once to get an accurate assessment of the true speaker characteristics.
 
M

miklorsmith

Full Audioholic
True, speed is a misnomer in what it describes related to what the driver is physically doing. It surely isn't describing how fast the driver goes in miles per hour or meters per second or anything else.

However, its meaning within audio is well accepted and universal even if the word is technically inaccurate.
 
MacManNM

MacManNM

Banned
miklorsmith said:
True, speed is a misnomer in what it describes related to what the driver is physically doing. It surely isn't describing how fast the driver goes in miles per hour or meters per second or anything else.

However, its meaning within audio is well accepted and universal even if the word is technically inaccurate.
No it's not. It is not defined that way for anyone in the buisness. Transient response is the correct term to describe what you are speaking of.
 
Sheep

Sheep

Audioholic Warlord
Buckle-meister said:
What is this?

Regards
heres the definition of IB

"Infinite-baffle enclosures are actually not enclosures at all. Infinite-baffle designs make use of a baffle upon which the drivers are placed, however, there are no other supporting structures. These designs are used primarily in car audio where speakers are mounted to the rear dash of a car beneath the rear window. Their fronts are open into the car's passenger compartment while their rears are open into the trunk."




Sheep
 
M

miklorsmith

Full Audioholic
If transient response is good, the speaker is described by people as fast. This discussion is dumb.
 
MacManNM

MacManNM

Banned
miklorsmith said:
If transient response is good, the speaker is described by people as fast. This discussion is dumb.

Then why did you start it?:p
 
M

miklorsmith

Full Audioholic
Touche. It just seemed there was an idea that there was no variation in this area of performance.
 
Buckeyefan 1

Buckeyefan 1

Audioholic Ninja
Jaxvon,

Thanks for bringing up transient response. From Birch and Proni's site, it states:

"Transient response refers to the ability of the subwoofer system to reproduce quick changes (transients) in the program material accurately. This is often interpreted as "tightness" or "looseness" which is maybe a dangerous terminology since many people are more influenced by tonal characteristics when asked to qualify the "tightness" of the bass. Transient response is actually a function of accuracy in relation to time rather than frequency. In music, sounds like drum strikes and quick bass guitar pulses are good tests of a subwoofer system's transient performance. A system with good transient response will reproduce these sounds with clear, "tight" definition. A system with poor transient response tends to blur these sounds over time, due to the speaker's inability to stop and start quickly enough to react to the signal accurately."

Regarding different types of enclosures:

"It is generally accepted that an optimized sealed enclosure exhibits the best transient response characteristics. The control provided by the air-spring in a good sealed system contribute to generally outstanding transient behavior. A ported enclosure can also achieve good transient behavior but never as good as an optimized sealed enclosure."

"Related to the loss of enclosure damping, ported and dual-reflex bandpass designs also exhibit higher distortion levels at very low frequencies than sealed or single-reflex bandpass designs.

Sealed enclosures and single-reflex bandpass designs have a rather shallow low-frequency roll-off rate of around 12dB/octave, whereas ported enclosures and dual-reflex bandpasses typically exhibit 18- 24dB/octave roll-off. For this reason, sealed enclosures and single-reflex bandpass boxes can have much higher -3dB points (the frequency at which the output dips 3dB below the reference efficiency of the speaker) than ported designs while still producing very good ultra-low frequency output."
 
jaxvon

jaxvon

Audioholic Ninja
Thanks Buck, glad I brought it up. For anyone who didn't read the white paper from Adire I posted, here's a summary:

-Mass does not really affect transient response
-Too much inductance is the culprit of delayed response

This follows with what I learned at an info session with the head engineer for Bully Subwoofers. His research on his own and at other companies showed that not only is transient response slowed by excess inductance, but distortion in increased. For this reason his sub is a low-inductance design.
 
Sheep

Sheep

Audioholic Warlord
Bose uses transmition line enclosures for their new subwoofers. 3 5.25inch drivers.

Sheep
 
jaxvon

jaxvon

Audioholic Ninja
Sheep said:
Bose uses transmition line enclosures for their new subwoofers. 3 5.25inch drivers.

Sheep
And your point is? Bose cubes are sealed enclosures, but that doesn't make them good, nor does it make other sealed enclosures bad. Just a coincidence.
 
Sheep

Sheep

Audioholic Warlord
jaxvon said:
And your point is? Bose cubes are sealed enclosures, but that doesn't make them good, nor does it make other sealed enclosures bad. Just a coincidence.
Woa.... calm down turbo. Just stating facts. Where did sealed enclosures come up?

Sheep
done for the night, Canucks game.:)
 
B

bloosquare

Enthusiast
MDS said:
The part in bold is why this myth persists. There is ONE signal.

A musical waveform is a (potentially) infinite number of sine waves superimposed into one. Use an audio editor like Sound Forge and generate a 30 Hz sine wave at whatever amplitude you desire. Then generate a 1 khz sine wave at any amplitude you desire. Paste Mix them together. What do you get? One sine wave that contains both of the frequencies.
You have a new definition of sine functions I think :)

The generalization of a sine wave is A sin (w t +P) w/ amplitude A, frequency w and phase P w/ t being time. Phase just makes things
complicated so ignoring the phase of the two original sine waves, there is no way you can find a C3, w3, P3 such that :

C3 sin (w3 t + P3) = C1 sin (w1 t) + C2 sin (w2 t)

is true.

That is you can not find a new generalized sine function that is the sum of two sine waves where the new sine function is "composited" such that
C1,C2,C3,w1,w2,w3, P3 are *constants*.

What I think you are thinking of is the fact that you can write

cos((w1-w2)/2 t) sin ( (w1+w2)/2 t) = sin (w1 t) + sin (w2 t)

which people sometimes write the left side as

A(t) sin( w' t)

so A(t) is the new analogous amplitude of a sine wave w/ frequency w'.
This isn't really a sine wave because A(t) is a function of time.

Really you get the product of two sine waves w/ one phase shifted by pi/2 (since cos(x-pi/2) = sin(x) ). This can be thought of as a big wave w/ slow freq (w1-w2)/2 but superimposed inside exists a fast wave w/ freq (w1+w2)/2. That big wave w/ a slow frequency is the beat frequency since
if w1 is close to w2 then the resulting frequency is so slow you can hear it oscillate.

Another way to think of this is that your first statement is true. Sound in general can be written as a sum of an infinite number of sine waves
i.e

Sound(t) = Sum_i A_i sin (w_i t) + B_i sin (w_i t - pi/2)

where I am summing over an infinite of sine functions of frequencies
w_i (i.e. w_1, w_2, w_3 ...) and corresponding amplitudes A_i (i.e. A_1, A_2, A3 ... ) and amplitudes B_1, B_2, B3 .. The second term are just
sine functions phase shifted by pi/2 (cosines). In fact there is a very simple recipe, given a frequency w_i to find the corresponding amplitude A_i that that frequency contributes to your sound(t). That recipe is actually how real time analyzers on graphic equalizers work.

The reason for this has nothing to do with sound but because the right hand side is known fourier series that can be used to write any (periodic or finite) function. That is I can write any arbitrary function f(t) as

f(t) = Sum_i { A_i sin (w_i t) + B_i sin (w_i t - pi/2) }

where f(t) could be a square wave, the outline of my pet dog, or whatever
else you fancy.

so if I take your argument that Sound(t) is a sine function because it
can be expressed as an "potentially infinite number of sine functions" I have to also agree that *any* function such as a square wave or my dog is also a sine function for the same reason. But it would be silly to define *any* function as a sine wave just because it can be written as a superposition of an infinite number of sine waves.

Now what this has to do w/ speakers I'll leave to the experts :)
 
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