Home Theater Systems VS. Music Systems

[mulester7]

.....guys, what am I missing here?....don't DVD's have music and spoken dialogue that needs to be crisp, transparently intelligible, and full-range?....don't CD's have music and vocal singing that needs to be crisp, transparently intelligible, and full-range?....what is the difference in these two typed systems?....is the only real difference in the sub aspirations?....how low does a sub need to go for home theater, when dinosaurs are walking and planets are blowing up?....since we can't hear a "pitch" below about 35 db's, do we not get enough realism concussion "felt" from a sub that goes down to 20-25 or so, to suffice for both applications?....why would we not want the very best sound quality possible for either application?.....comments, please......

 

[bpape]

I think there are some differences.

In the sub department - for music, one is looking for speed, accuracy, and a good blend with your main speakers - extension to 25Hz or so is probably plenty. Output to 100db or so is also likely plenty

For HT, the sub's duties can be much more taxing. There are many examples of recorded effects in movies that go down below 15Hz and at realistic levels for the rest of the movie, exceed 105db.

For the mains, in a HT, you want something that is quick, accurate, and able to easily lock the image onto the screen. Appropriate timbre is sometimes sacrificed for high SPLs cleanly.

For music, proper tonality, the ability to throw a 3 dimensional image behind and beyond the speaker spacing is paramount. High SPLs are not at such a premium for many.

I'll give you an example. Take a pair of Quad ESL-63's and mate them with a Futterman OTL-1 amp or a Berning EA-230. For music - it's magical - some of the best around. Could I be happy with that for music? Sure. Would it work in an HT setup? Nope. Besides no bottom end for effects, trying to get any sub to mate with the Quads (speed wise) is almost impossible. Not to mention the limited SPL output, one seat sweet spot, etc.

 

[mulester7]

.....very good post and very thought provoking, Bpape....where could one find a pair of these ESL 63's or the original ESL's?....and, could sealed boxes being driven with serious watts for subs, keep up with the ESL's in your opinion?....now there's your FAST and ACCURATE subs.....

.....I still wonder though, if the commercial lines of speakers that are dealt with at this site could go for either application of HT or Music.....

 

[mtrycrafts]

.....guys, what am I missing here?....don't DVD's have music and spoken dialogue that needs to be crisp, transparently intelligible, and full-range?....don't CD's have music and vocal singing that needs to be crisp, transparently intelligible, and full-range?....what is the difference in these two typed systems?....is the only real difference in the sub aspirations?....how low does a sub need to go for home theater, when dinosaurs are walking and planets are blowing up?....since we can't hear a "pitch" below about 35 db's, do we not get enough realism concussion "felt" from a sub that goes down to 20-25 or so, to suffice for both applications?....why would we not want the very best sound quality possible for either application?.....comments, please......

You are correct. The speakers don't know what signals are being sent to them
HT is no different from well recorded music, especially low frequency pipe organs or very large bass drums in the 48" range or larger that Telarc has recorded, from time to time

Both need subs that blend properly. Sub speed is misused. An amps damping will stop it when needed, period.

 

[mulester7]

You are correct. The speakers don't know what signals are being sent to them
HT is no different from well recorded music, especially low frequency pipe organs or very large bass drums in the 48" range or larger that Telarc has recorded, from time to time

Both need subs that blend properly. Sub speed is misused. An amps damping will stop it when needed, period.

.....Mtrycrafts, I can't help but lean in your direction on this topic.....

 

[hifiman]

Personally I've never bought into the whole HT system vs. Music system. If a link in your system's chain doesn't perform well under certain conditions it's a weak link regardless.

 

[Francious70]

Speakers are designed for a specific goal. You're not going to find an 18" sub with 3" one way throw in a snail shell box tuned in the low teens very musical. It's just going to rumble, and then sound like poo above 40Hz. This will likely make your neighbor's dishes rattle out of the cabinets.

Now on the other hand, a 10" speaker with 10mm one way throw in a small sealed box isn't going to be able to knock pictures off the wall when T-Rex is stomping around your Jeep in Jurassic Park.

As for main speakers, you're going to want something that is more sensitive and able to be driven to higher levels (multi-driver speakers Ex. Polk R50's) for movies. For music, a pair of bookshelf speakers should be plenty enough to get you to a good level with fairly in-efficient speakers, but they have better tonality and a flatter frequency response.

Think about what the speaker you're looking at would be designed for. If you're looking for HT speakers, envision you're watching Monday Night Football in HDTV. Do the speakers look like they'll make John Madden loud, or will they make him sound beautiful (which he definately ain't)??

 

[Sheep]

Speaker wise, The only thing I can think of is dynamics. Hometheater volume levels change more then music, so having ample power and a large soundstage would be good, but it works for music too.

As for subs

There is no difference between a Good musical sub, and a good Hometheater sub.

A/V equipement is about transparency. A subwoofer that hits 20 - 80hz, with 0 % distortion, is the probly the perfect sub. Its clean. Some will say fast for music, boomier for HT. Riddle me this, If the subwoofer was slower, wouldn't it be playing a different note? Boom is harmonic distorion, so start saying that, your confusing the Noobs.

I know alot of you will now eat a plate and turn into the rage-filled audiophile to defend your statements, but you have to remember something, personal preference.

Some people like harmonic distortion, Othes don't. Usually ppl like a little "boom" for HT, and NONE for music. Thusly they catigorise subwoofers as MUSIC or HT. In the perfect world, the most transparent subwoofer is the best choice for both, IF your looking for transparency.

[/rant]
Sheep

 

[MDS]

Riddle me this, If the subwoofer was slower, wouldn't it be playing a different note?

Absolutely correct, Sheep. 'Fast' has no meaning when you are talking about a subwoofer or any speaker for that matter. I believe the reason some people make a distinction between 'good for music' vs 'good for movies' is that movie soundtracks often have far lower bass than music and the sub that is deemed better for music simply can't produce the lower frequencies with low distortion and high SPL.

 

[Sheep]

Absolutely correct, Sheep. 'Fast' has no meaning when you are talking about a subwoofer or any speaker for that matter. I believe the reason some people make a distinction between 'good for music' vs 'good for movies' is that movie soundtracks often have far lower bass than music and the sub that is deemed better for music simply can't produce the lower frequencies with low distortion and high SPL.

Exaclty, sooo

A subwoofer that extends low enough to cover movie content, while remaining Harmonic distortion free, will be a good music and movie subwoofer.

Sheep

 

[jaxvon]

Exaclty, sooo

A subwoofer that extends low enough to cover movie content, while remaining Harmonic distortion free, will be a good music and movie subwoofer.

Sheep

I have to add a caveat here. Speakers are by far the largest source of distortion in the audio chain. Even a "low distortion" subwoofer driver will still have distortion products in the single digits and sometimes into the double digits near the edges of its frequency response.

 

[Sheep]

I have to add a caveat here. Speakers are by far the largest source of distortion in the audio chain. Even a "low distortion" subwoofer driver will still have distortion products in the single digits and sometimes into the double digits near the edges of its frequency response.

Read my first post. I said a subwoofer the from 20 - 80hz with 0% I know they don't exist, this whole thread is hypithetical(typo?)

Sheep

 

[jaxvon]

Read my first post. I said a subwoofer the from 20 - 80hz with 0% I know they don't exist, this whole thread is hypithetical(typo?)

Sheep

Ah, I just responded to your most recent post. Sorry about that. And to answer your "sort-of" question, it's "hypothetical".

Sorry about the understanding ya'll!

 

[Sheep]

Ah, I just responded to your most recent post. Sorry about that. And to answer your "sort-of" question, it's "hypothetical".

Sorry about the understanding ya'll!

Thanks, I don't have dictionary.com open

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

Exaclty, sooo

A subwoofer that extends low enough to cover movie content, while remaining Harmonic distortion free, will be a good music and movie subwoofer.

Sheep

I may be the only one (or one of three) on this board that disagrees, but not necessarily. Sheep, you say "good", which I fully agree with. Had you said "great," then I'd have to totally disagree.

MacManNM and I toyed with all the SVS subs for hours with music, as well as movies. You cannot beat SVS subs for the deepest HT and house bass, but they purposely tune their boxes this way. Since their boxes are HUGE relative to driver size, they lack in the upper range compared to the best sealed boxes IMHO. Now if you're talking budget, the SVS is most likely the better buy. You'd have to spend 1.5X or more for a sealed 15" enclosure that gives you that depth charge bass.

Mule wouldn't be looking for that "midbass" effect in a smaller sub if that were the case. He has two top of the line SVS subs.

Now don't get me wrong, these subs are excellent for music. Most home theaters have towers that will take over where these low flying SVS type subs leave off. It's when you pair up a small bookshelf to a PB12 ISD Plus II that you'll find other subs better with music.

The most discerning two channel music listeners will tell all of us to forget the subs altogether, and rely on their massive towers for full range sound.

It's mostly personal preference. I really enjoy listening to music with my sub on, and in 7 channel stereo. Once in awhile, I'll kick it into two channel pure direct with smooth jazz, but I still prefer the enveloping sound of all 7.1 drivers working in unison.

My 2.0 "music only" setup has two towers with 15" woofers, 6" midranges, and ribbon tweeters. No need for a sub, but it's a dinosaur.

 

[mulester7]

Mule wouldn't be looking for that "midbass" effect in a smaller sub if that were the case.

.....that is mostly correct, Buck, but it's actually support for my main's regiment I seek with small cannons to come....but, you are correct in that I want to add a little extra edgy popping "voice" on top of the big box subs, also....the guy that makes my speakers said subs like mine are used a lot in Vegas show theaters....made me feel good....oh well.....

....returning to the thread, I say a sub that is clean down to 20-25 beats a "boomy" sub that goes lower....that boom can be effective on some things, sure, like Galaxies blowing up, but boom ain't clean, guys, nor would I plug a sub to create less intelligible oscillations....(all that oughta' make somebody swing down out of the rafters defending their HT sub, haha)....another thing....a claim was made earlier that DVD frequency response can go to 15 hz or lower....anything to this?......

 

[Sheep]

This is exaclty what im talking about...

You(Buck) and MacManNM are stating what you like. Its not a bit of personal preference, its ALL.

If the subwoofer has a flat, distortion free FR from 20 -80 hz, its going to be able to perform well on music and movies if want transparency. (I say 20-80 because generally subs don't play above 80, and you can't hear below 20, but lower without distortion is always welcome )

No one is talking SVS in particular, Or atleast I'm not. So where that came from is for you to explain

I don't know how people can disagree on my pervious statements. If you want transparency, no THD, Flat. Frequency's don't change coming from a dvd or CD, and speakers don't know the difference. Its voodoo I tells ya, VOO DOO

Sheep (if you are truley offended, PM me, lets keep the thread clean )
Off to the gym, back in an hour or so

 

[miklorsmith]

I'd be happy with a sat/sub combo for HT with lots of speakers. For music, this arrangement would drive me insane. A system must be more convincing and competent to cut it for music, where I'm much more forgiving for movies.

Bass isn't bass isn't bass either. Down-firing vs. front firing, port configurations, and ROOM EFFECTS have a huge role to play. How about ported vs. not? Gimme ports and SPL for movies, and speed/sealed for music. Speed applies to speakers/subs, no question.

 

[MDS]

Bass isn't bass isn't bass either. Down-firing vs. front firing, port configurations, and ROOM EFFECTS have a huge role to play. How about ported vs. not? Gimme ports and SPL for movies, and speed/sealed for music. Speed applies to speakers/subs, no question.

Please explain the 'speed' of a subwoofer without resorting to meaningless adjectives like 'tight', 'crisp', or 'punchy'. Explain it in terms of the physics of sound.

I would really like to know the who makes the fastest subwoofer. Is it faster than a speeding bullet?

 

[Sheep]

I'd be happy with a sat/sub combo for HT with lots of speakers. For music, this arrangement would drive me insane. A system must be more convincing and competent to cut it for music, where I'm much more forgiving for movies.

Bass isn't bass isn't bass either. Down-firing vs. front firing, port configurations, and ROOM EFFECTS have a huge role to play. How about ported vs. not? Gimme ports and SPL for movies, and speed/sealed for music. Speed applies to speakers/subs, no question.

Ports don't change anything but room nodes, its not going to get rid or add THD. speed = VooDoo. The speed changes, the note changes. Nuff said.

Sheep