home audio compared to car audio technology?

[Francious70]

$25,000??? Is that it?? Check this out.

http://www.phoenixgold.com/webfaq/MPH6300.htm

Retail price of $100,000 Car audio gear can get expensive too. And in all actuallity, I believe SQ is coming back around.

Paul

 

[shokhead]

Would rather spend money on the home gear. As long as its decent in the car,i can handle that. Heck,i only put 5000 miles a year on the car so i'm not in there as much as i am in my chair at home.LOL

 

[Francious70]

Well, I put about 25,000 miles on my car every year, and most of the time when I'm home, I'm sleeping. I guess it's pretty obvious where my prioritys are. Hahaha.

Paul

 

[shokhead]

Yep,a good fricken bed.LOL

 

[WmAx]

I would say that “audiophile” level car audio is much more difficult than home audio or home theater.

Do you think it's easier to install decoupled walls(for isolation), special isolated HVAC(for low room noisefloor and prevention of sound leakage to rest of environment), design and installation of room diffusors, room absorbers, etc? No such thing as just place the speakers in a random room and run the basic setup routine(s) if you want sound quality of the highest order in home application.

I don't understand how car audio can ever sound convincing, as far in as acoustic music reproduction realism, unless some very non-conventional systems were employed. For example, using the ultrasonic modulation transducer technology, it is theoretically possible to produce a perfect binaural soundfield for each listener independantly within a somewhat narrow area of head placement. But in any conventional setup, how can you even get a symmetrical soundfield to each side of your head when sitting in one of the two front seats? Due to the proportions of the cabin and relative extent of the seating position(s), the reflections that do occur in the car simply from the window surfaces(assuming some unrealistic situation where you have managed to damp every other surface with a broadband high coefficient material(s)) relative to the ears is going to cause serious issues due to the assymetrical behaviour(s) compared to left/right soundfield. It seems to me, at the very best, you could get very nice sounding(but not realism) playback quality with a stabile image and useful soundfield, and proper tonality. I am familiar with the established psychoacoustic principles to acheive a percieved level of realism; I don't immediately notice how any of these can be accomplished(except the one I listed above) in a car using conventional installation methods. Perhaps an effective pointsource eminating from the base of the A-pillars that covered the lower midrange to treble bands could help in this direction; but again this is not a conventional istallation as far as I know.

-Chris

 

[guess88]

There's nothing wrong with cmusic's statement... you just said so yourself in your big worded explanation which kinda made it seem like audiophile car audio efforts were futile. It doesn't look like cmusic's neglecting the environments of a proper home audio setup at all, but when you're working inside of a car, there's a lot more constraints to deal with. It honestly just seems to me like you haven't paid much attention to the car audio field. If you're looking into audiophile type car audio, nothing's conventional at all. Hell, even finding decent quality gear can be so hard, we convert home audio components to 12v. Some of us go to the extent of cutting the sheetmetal out of the kick panels, and welding in custom enclosures just to get that extra few inches to equalize the pathlengths a bit. Then there's also a lot of dsp tricks, and of course setting up the environment. If you haven't, i suggest you meet some professional sound quality car audio competitors and talk to then and listen to their rides.

As for ultimate realism... nothing will ever beat a live band. Plain and simple. I find it weird sometimes that a lot of people who dish out tons of cash for good car audio, and home audio installs, have never really listen to many live bands much. How does anyone really ever know what a guitar or sax sounds like if they've never heard one extensively in person?

Franc... yeah, forgot about that one. I think my friend actually helped design that one, not sure. He quit PG about... i think 3 years ago to do professional home theater. It was sometime after the old owner sold the company, and he just didn't like how the new guy ran the place. It's evident in their current products vs their past. More ran like a business now than a group of people crazy about audio building amazing products.

 

[guess88]

Would rather spend money on the home gear. As long as its decent in the car,i can handle that. Heck,i only put 5000 miles a year on the car so i'm not in there as much as i am in my chair at home.LOL

How the hell do you only put 5k anually on your car? Metro user, or one of those fabulous work at home jobs?

 

[WmAx]

It honestly just seems to me like you haven't paid much attention to the car audio field. If you're looking into audiophile type car audio, nothing's conventional at all.

I am familiar with many of the pre-requisites to produce a realistic percieved soundfield. I have thumbed through a few car audio magazines, noticing several competion SQ installs, and I don't see anything that looks to be able to produce such a soundfield based on my knowledge of how the acoustics will interact and how they correlate with human psychoacoustics. I did list at least two ideas that might work(not something that is conventionally done in ANY car audio sector-though it is possible that some installer somewhere did such, but by definition this will still be non-conventional since it would b exceedingly rare).

Hell, even finding decent quality gear can be so hard, we convert home audio components to 12v.

I dont know why that would be true. The same measurable parameters that apply to home gear, apply to car gear.

As for ultimate realism... nothing will ever beat a live band. Plain and simple. I find it weird sometimes that a lot of people who dish out tons of cash for good car audio, and home audio installs, have never really listen to many live bands much. How does anyone really ever know what a guitar or sax sounds like if they've never heard one extensively in person?

I listen to unamplified music and other non amplified sounds with my eyes closed for use as a reference of audio. But beat a live band? This depends on your perspective. First, most performances are ampled through a P.A....no thanks. 2nd, even in non-amped environments I would prefer to listen at home in most cases -- I dont' like the sound of the audience nor the typical uncomfortable seating. I go to and listen to unamplified music more for reference, then for enjoyment. But if you typically view while you listen(I don't), then of course you can not match a llive performance. You have visual and auditory sensory input that works together and will create a memory of the experience based on the combination of both. Even if you recreate the soundfiled exactly, it would not be the same without the visual input as well.

-Chris

 

[guess88]

True, I wasn't trying to talk necessarily about concerts though. I honestly think most concerts are setup horribly. What I meant was more like sitting down with the band playing live music, or in a studio, or just jamming with them. I've had the tremendous good fortune to meet a lot of people in bands and hang out with them and they just dome some great jam sessions. I even add in a few hand drum beats or vocals.... all in a good night!!! =)

Besides that though... there's a huge difference between actually experiencing the field than just reading about it in magazines. You could probably say the same to yourself when you were just flipping through home theater magazines and then you actually started working with them. Things go a lot deeper than you initially realize. Now while the same measurable parameters that apply to home audio should apply to car audio... in the rear world... there's a lot of equipment that don't. You can notice that heavily by just changing head units. There's such a difference in sound between some, and it's nothing to do with dsp processing. As much as some would like to argue about it, anybody who's had some experience in the car audio field would agree.

Also..."the ultrasonic modulation transducer technology"... are you talking about timing and delay? If so, it's very commonly used in car audio nowadays. Hell I even use it in my current head unit. And mounting point source type speakers in the corner of the A pillars is more common than you think as well. While it's not what you see in every day joe shmoe's system, for the people serious about sound quality in car audio.. they've been all too well into it. A lot of us use compression horns mounted under the dash to solve some staging issues as well. There's a lot of things.

I don't think either field can properly be opionated on without some decent experience in both areas. There's just such a huge difference between seeing and reading about it in magazines vs actually experiencing what it's all about.

 

[shokhead]

How the hell do you only put 5k anually on your car? Metro user, or one of those fabulous work at home jobs?

No life Got an 02 Altima,it was 3 years old this month,i'm at 16,780 right now.

 

[guess88]

No life Got an 02 Altima,it was 3 years old this month,i'm at 16,780 right now.

I got some good "entertainment" videos for trade if you'd like..

 

[WmAx]

Besides that though... there's a huge difference between actually experiencing the field than just reading about it in magazines. You could probably say the same to yourself when you were just flipping through home theater magazines and then you actually started working with them. Things go a lot deeper than you initially realize.

About the only section of car audio installation that may be treading new ground, that I can not directly correlate with my existing knowledge, would be SPL competion systems -- specifically the best(easiest) way to reinforce the vehicle shells, the best way to approach the electirical system power supply, etc. -- that would definately be a new issue for me.

Now while the same measurable parameters that apply to home audio should apply to car audio... in the rear world... there's a lot of equipment that don't. You can notice that heavily by just changing head units.

If you 'notice' a change, then it will certainly be measurable unless it was only a psychological one. BTW, car audio is just as prone to placebo as is home audio.

As much as some would like to argue about it, anybody who's had some experience in the car audio field would agree.

I can point to an unlimited number of home audiophiles that would agree. That would not make them right.

Also..."the ultrasonic modulation transducer technology"... are you talking about timing and delay?

No. I am referring to the panels that modulate ultrasonic carrier waves that combine within a narrow target field, thus having true directional broad band transducers. This is not used in any commercial application as of yet, but working prototypes exist.

And mounting point source type speakers in the corner of the A pillars is more common than you think as well.

While I mentioned this a possible push in the direction desired, it should be noted that many obstacles are existant that must be overcome, such as the severe early reflections between the side window, front window and dash, and practicality of getting broad enough frequency coverage from this point. While it is possible, I believe, to get a sufficient behaviour, it would require extensive work and a superior execution to achieve to satisfaction. Even if you did accomplish it correctly(improbable for most), then once again the assymetrical behaviour from L to R channels is still existant and a serious issue.

I don't think either field can properly be opionated on without some decent experience in both areas. There's just such a huge difference between seeing and reading about it in magazines vs actually experiencing what it's all about.

Most of the basic requirements to produce a realistic soundfield are known; it is not a problem to correlate from one sector to the other: these requirements are the same in both environments.

I still stand by my statement that a car interior is a very poor environment, if you desire the highest audio quality compared to what is possible in a home environment. The symmetrical placement in a room, along with the delay/echo/reflection times are sufficient to assist greatly in creating a diffuse sound field illusion. No such sufficient reflection times exist in a car interior -- the early reflection times can only be destructive in a car interior. The methods to provide realism in a car, are not typical and suffer from many practical limitations.

How can you believe a car is anywhere near as useful for realistic playback as a room? This conversation is rather silly.

-Chris

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

I have to add my .02 cents here. This is a silly debate. I've spent way too much on both my home and auto setup. The sound is as different as a dance club compared to a live symphony orchestra. It's very easy to get huge spl in a car or truck, especially with an 924 watt digital amp and two 12" subs. It seems the more you spend on your vehicles system, the more bass you get. Try doing that in a house. And who would really want to? I prefer a great HT experience at home. In my car, crank up the Chemical Brothers.

I hear the sound systems in the new Acura TL are pretty darn amazing. I have yet to hear them. I doubt they can hold a candle to my setup, but then again I'm not 55 yrs old listening to Bach...yet.

 

[guess88]

WmAx.... i'm not saying a car interior is better or as good an environment as a room in a home. It's a HORRIBLE place, with so many limitations to work with, hence the challenge of it. I don't even know why you thought i was arguing that it was better. What I will say for car audio is that it has come a long way, and there are some very good sounding cars out there, better than you probably realize. Again though, I don't see how anyone can properly argue which is better or worse without much experience in both fields. If all anyone does with car audio is see it in magazines, you can only speculate.

And also, there are measure tests done on headunits and amps, and they do prove different. How audible that is to you depends, but i'm not gonna argue it with someone who doesn't have experience in it. It's like telling what sex is like to a virgin. He can think all he wants, but till he's had that sweet fine luscious piece.... he'll never really know.

Also, buckeye... car audio's not all about bass. You know that. It's what's hyped more and probably what it's known for more, but there's a huge amount of SQ competitors as well. For the most part, people generally get into it first for the bass, then get tired of it and go into sound quality. SQ setups generally cost much more, unless you're talking pro spl competitors. I know a guy who competes professionally who's about $200k in the drain, and he's even sponsored by a major company. He is shooting for the record though. =)

 

[Francious70]

You wanna see what it take to compete in pro SPL?? Check out this install and you'll see it get's pretty involved.

http://soundoff.phoenixgold.com/viewtopic.php?t=2161

I have some experience in both fields and I can tell you that while both are the same, both are worlds apart.

Back to the original topic, car audio tech isn't really less advanced, it's just a metric assload more expensive.

Paul

And WmAx, cars can provide just as good of sound reproduction as a room. It just take planning, planning, planning. And a little bit of trial and error.

1 more thing, the A pillar is one of the worst places you can stick your tweeter for SQ. Mounting the tweeter and midrange more than 5" apart will seperate the image.

 

[guess88]

HAHA... that's Dave's car... that's exactly who i was talking about!!!

 

[WmAx]

And WmAx, cars can provide just as good of sound reproduction as a room. It just take planning, planning, planning. And a little bit of trial and error.

How do you address the points I brought up earlier? How do you produce a perceptually useful symmetrical diffuse(and high quality) soundfield in a car interior, short of the improbable ideas I was bouncing around earlier?

1 more thing, the A pillar is one of the worst places you can stick your tweeter for SQ. Mounting the tweeter and midrange more than 5" apart will seperate the image.

As I already stated, I recognize the improbability, due to the early reflections from the dash, side and front windows. I also specifically qualified the issue earlier, when I mentioned the bandwidth. And again, the issue of HOW do you produce a symmetrical diffuse soundfield for both ears when sitting in either the left or right side of the car?

-Chris

 

[WmAx]

WmAx.... i'm not saying a car interior is better or as good an environment as a room in a home. It's a HORRIBLE place, with so many limitations to work with, hence the challenge of it. I don't even know why you thought i was arguing that it was better.

It seemed to me that you were arguing it was as good for sound reproduction as a room. I apologize for this misunderstanding.

Again though, I don't see how anyone can properly argue which is better or worse without much experience in both fields.

Because the physical/perceptual issues play by the same rules in both cases. I recognize that possible solutions exist -- but they are not practical yet, in any case.

And also, there are measure tests done on headunits and amps, and they do prove different. How audible that is to you depends, but i'm not gonna argue it with someone who doesn't have experience in it.

Fortunately, scientifically valid research has been performed and provides us with a standard coorelation to audibility, of measurements.

-Chris

 

[shokhead]

A good system will sound good in a car. Take that system and set it up in a house and compare to a good A/V system and the car will be out of its element. Turn that around and to me,advanage home A/V but this is all here or there. Which vacuum is better,a car vac or a home vac? Car one works great in the car and the home vac works great in the home.

 

[Francious70]

How do you address the points I brought up earlier? How do you produce a perceptually useful symmetrical diffuse(and high quality) soundfield in a car interior, short of the improbable ideas I was bouncing around earlier?

Put the speakers in kick pannel pods aimed directly at your head and you'll only get the direct (beamed) sound, the reflections will go elsewhere. And if RTA's to a flat frequency response (it is possible, and not to terribly difficult) then what you have is a perfect reproduction of the recording.

As I already stated, I recognize the improbability, due to the early reflections from the dash, side and front windows. I also specifically qualified the issue earlier, when I mentioned the bandwidth. And again, the issue of HOW do you produce a symmetrical diffuse soundfield for both ears when sitting in either the left or right side of the car?

-Chris

Sadly, you can't produce a symetrical soundfield for driver and passenger side, just one or the other. But that really dosen't matter, where do you sit in your car more often?? That's where you want the soundfield to be the best. It's kinda like that sweet spot in your room, where do you sit most often in there, and does it sound the best in that exact spot, or does it sound the same all over the room?

Paul