Hi, I have the Goldenear Triton Ones along with a Marantz 8802a preamp. My current amp quit working

[PENG]

Oh, there is no question that fully differential designs are superior (on paper)

I agree with the "on paper" part. We can be hit by a 50 ton truck or a 150 ton truck, everything else being equal, the outcome would likely be the same though.

 

[PENG]

Fair question, and perhaps I left it open ended purposefully

Typically, I would consider that as a differential input at the preamp, and differential all the way to the outputs, but likely not a differential output stage.

Honestly, I haven't really studied up on a real differential output to the speakers....that does not seem to be a popular design for some reason?

I assume you meant from input to output, every amplification stages included, are in differential configuration, component counts basically got doubled for such implementation. Gene has written something on this topic when he bragged about his Denon AVP-A1HDC1 using it as an example. If I remember right, ADTG has one of those too, probably why he is promoting this fully balanced from input to output thing. With the fully balanced ATI, he might have the bragging right. I apparently have one such preamp, but no luck with any of my power amps so far.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

He said there were a large number of sound sources that are unbalanced in the world, and being an overly complicated product couple of reasons why they hadn't gone with that road with the preamps. Read between the lines, why spent money on areas that does not improve sound quality. He also told me it didn't mean they wouldn't do it at some point. Again, I read between the lines, that if they ever go down that road it won't be for sound quality. I think by now, you and I both know the point of diminishing return applies to audiophile products as well.

Pretty much the excuse I was expecting from Bryston or any other company.

Basically, why spend MORE money when they probably won't make that much more money anyway even if they changed?

Yeah, most of these things are not about actual improved sound quality in the real world.

It's the idea/dream/perception of improved sound quality.

Speakers, room acoustics, and original source are the weak links.

I just wonder if this hurts them financially.

If other companies can offer fully-balanced high-end amps that cost the same or less, how many customers are turning away from Bryston because they chose not to change?

 

[PENG]

Pretty much the excuse I was expecting from Bryston or any other company.

Basically, why spend MORE money?

Yeah, most of these things are not about actual improved sound quality in the real world.

It's the idea/dream/perception of improved sound quality.

Speakers, room acoustics, and original source are the weak links.

I just wonder if this hurts them financially.

If other companies can offer fully-balanced high-end amps that cost the same or less, how many customers are turning away from Bryston because they chose not to change?

Again, you can buy their 7B, 14B and 28B. They cost more $/W than ATI and Emo's, but less than other such as some models from Krell, Boulder that cost much more yet are still in business. For pre-amp, hold on to your Denon AVP if you still has it.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Again, you can buy their 7B, 14B and 28B. They cost more $/W than ATI and Emo's, but less than other such as some models from Krell, Boulder that cost much more yet are still in business. For pre-amp, hold on to your Denon AVP if you still has it.

Yeah, I'll continue to use the "world's first fully balanced pre-pro" Denon AVP-A1HDCI for as long as possible.

Any other pre-pros that are fully balanced that you know of that was made after the Denon AVP was made since it was the world's first fully balanced pre-pro?

I was looking at the McIntosh amps and pre-pros. It seems they mention their amps being balanced, but I didn't see any mention of their pre-pros being fully balanced.

ATI loves to brag about their amps being fully balanced, but again, when they did sell pre-pros, they never mentioned their pre-pros being balanced either.

 

[PENG]

Yeah, I'll continue to use "the world's first fully balanced pre-pro" Denon AVP-A1HDCI for as long as possible.

Any other pre-pros that are fully balanced that you know of?

I was looking at the McIntosh amps and pre-pros. It seems they mention their amps being balanced, but I didn't see any mention of their pre-pros being fully balanced.

ATI loves to brag about their amps being fully balanced, but again, when they did sell pre-pros, they never mentioned their pre-pros being balanced either.

If others are doing it, they are not advertising it..

 

[Irvrobinson]

Well, like I say, you are not disagreeing with me, you are disagreeing with the experts that literally wrote the books on amp construction.

I'm just telling you what I have read from the literature, and he had corresponding arguments to back up those claims.

Maybe for playing pop music at 85db of average volume at the listening seat amp SNR doesn't matter, but for classical music it most certainly does, IMO. I like to see unweighted SNRs of at least 80db at 1W for power amps.

 

[Irvrobinson]

If others are doing it, they are not advertising it..

Mark Levinson pre-amps have been advertising balanced circuits for a couple of decades (at least). The new No526 is no exception, but I guess at $20K for a pre-amp you talk about every little optimization you can...

 

[mtrycrafts]

I agree with the "on paper" part. We can be hit by a 50 ton truck or a 150 ton truck, everything else being equal, the outcome would likely be the same though.

One's a pancake, the other is a very thin crepe.

 

[mtrycrafts]

...ADTG has one of those two, ....

So, which is it, one or two; perhaps both?

Sometimes I just cannot help myself. LOL

 

[<eargiant]

Yeah, but that reality does not change the design goals!

Ruler flat freq response is a design goal, I didn't say it was the ONLY design goal.

Another design goal is "load invariant" amplifier. Of course, we will never get a 100% load-invariant amp, but we can get pretty dang close.

Douglas Self, literally wrote several books on proper amplifier design goals and how best to achieve those goals. Here is a board of his design:
http://www.signaltransfer.freeuk.com/invarint.htm

Again, these problems have already been solved!!!

My point was that just because something is well understood doesn't mean it comes inside every box we buy. These are businesses producing our gear not altruistic entities.

Class A/B is well understood and the "problems have already been solved" but not all products that tout a perfectly flat FR or a perfect 10 kHz square wave on paper meet other (or all) important criteria when stressed in real world use.

If they did, there would have to be some magic involved just based on the construction of some products. Sometimes bean-counters have the last word.

 

[PENG]

Mark Levinson pre-amps have been advertising balanced circuits for a couple of decades (at least). The new No526 is no exception, but I guess at $20K for a pre-amp you talk about every little optimization you can...

He's talking about multchannel AV prepro, not a pure preamp.

 

[PENG]

One's a pancake, the other is a very thin crepe.

Okay, basically definitely dead in either case so nothing else matter.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Mark Levinson pre-amps have been advertising balanced circuits for a couple of decades (at least). The new No526 is no exception, but I guess at $20K for a pre-amp you talk about every little optimization you can...

Stereo preamps, yes. But not pre-pros.

Denon says the Denon AVP-A1HDCI is the "world's first fully balanced PRE-PRO".

 

[slipperybidness]

Maybe for playing pop music at 85db of average volume at the listening seat amp SNR doesn't matter, but for classical music it most certainly does, IMO. I like to see unweighted SNRs of at least 80db at 1W for power amps.

Right.

"Like to see" is not the same as "critical measurement parameter".

The type of music that you listen to is completely irrelevant to your argument. We are discussiing inherent amplifier parameters.

The fact is that the amp building experts educate us on the fact that the SNR is not a critical parameter for an AMP. On the other hand, SNR is THE critial parameter for a PRE-AMP.

When I get a chance, I will find the citation in the literature and post it here.

I do completely agree with you on your 80db SNR, that is likely the minimum number that I "would consider for my amp" too.

How many amps have you built and measured?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I like to see unweighted SNRs of at least 80db at 1W for power amps.

...I do completely agree with you on your 80db SNR...

I don't know....

According to Stereophile, most amps have a WIDE-BAND Unweighted SNR of less than 80dB!

$99,000/pair Boulder monoblock - "The 2150 was extremely quiet—its unweighted, wideband signal/noise ratio with the input shorted to ground measured 78.5dB ref. 2.83V into 8 ohms."

Read more at https://www.stereophile.com/content/boulder-amplifiers-2150-monoblock-power-amplifier-measurements#wOqHqK6YqRuPTi3V.99

$55,000/pair Dan D'Agostino monoblock - "The unweighted, wideband signal/noise ratio, ref. 2.83V into 8 ohms and taken with the input shorted, was a good 77.2dB."

https://www.stereophile.com/content/dan-dagostino-momentum-monoblock-power-amplifier-measurements

$50,000 Mark Levinson monoblock - "The No.53's unweighted, wideband signal/noise ratio, ref. 1W into 8 ohms with the input shorted, was therefore still lower than usual, at just 52.1dB."

Read more at https://www.stereophile.com/content/mark-levinson-no53-reference-monoblock-power-amplifier-measurements#7c2wKuYjVc5ogkov.99

$30,000/pair Mark Levinson - "With the input shorted to ground, the Mark Levinson No.536 amplifier offered a wideband, unweighted signal/noise ratio of 71dB, ref. 1W into 8 ohms."

Read more at https://www.stereophile.com/content/mark-levinson-no536-monoblock-power-amplifier-measurements#k756T9cJJ6iexOcq.99

$30,000/pair AVM Ovation monoblock - "The wideband signal/noise ratio ref. 1W into 8 ohms, taken with the input shorted to ground, was okay, at 74.6dB".

Read more at https://www.stereophile.com/content/avm-ovation-ma82-monoblock-power-amplifier-measurements#SS1YtmDzy1iRCiiQ.99

$22,500/pair Krell 575 monoblock - "Measured with the balanced input shorted to ground, the unweighted, wideband signal/noise ratio was very good, at 78.2dB ref. 2.83V into 8 ohms."

Read more at https://www.stereophile.com/content/krell-solo-575-monoblock-power-amplifier-measurements#MvyPo05ozJ3q5SkR.99

$14,000/pair Classe monoblocks - "The Classé CT-M600 is among the quietest amplifiers I have measured. Its wideband, unweighted signal/noise ratio (with the input shorted and ref. 1W into 8 ohms) was a superb 79.6dB."

Read more at https://www.stereophile.com/content/measurements#KhP0sIrfqVXVE6zE.99


$12,000/pair Theta Digital Prometheus monoblock - "the unweighted, wideband signal/noise ratio, ref. 2.83V into 8 ohms, was 76.3dB"

Read more at https://www.stereophile.com/content/theta-digital-prometheus-monoblock-power-amplifier-measurements#YvA30QF7EtsI8W1u.99

$12,000/pair Bryston monoblock - "The 7B SST2 is a quiet amplifier. Its unweighted signal/noise ratio (ref. 1W into 8 ohms) measured 75.6dB"

Read more at https://www.stereophile.com/content/bryston-7b-sstsup2sup-monoblock-power-amplifier-measurements#W2ckQg26tWeiXDml.99

$11,000/pair Pass Labs XA60.5 monoblock - "The unweighted, wideband signal/noise ratio, ref. 1W into 8 ohms and taken with the input shorted to ground, was a good 79dB."

Read more at https://www.stereophile.com/content/pass-labs-xa605-monoblock-power-amplifier-measurements#3GzBW1uS0hLJdEfZ.99

$7,000/pair Anthem M1 monoblock- "Without the AP filter, the Anthem's wideband, unweighted signal/noise ratio, ref. 2.83V into 8 ohms with the input shorted, was miserable: 10.4dB".

Read more at https://www.stereophile.com/content/anthem-statement-m1-monoblock-power-amplifier-measurements#hsHUhtIETyDHs1kV.99

 

[slipperybidness]

I don't know....

According to Stereophile, most amps have a WIDE-BAND Unweighted SNR of less than 80dB!

$99,000/pair Boulder monoblock - "The 2150 was extremely quiet—its unweighted, wideband signal/noise ratio with the input shorted to ground measured 78.5dB ref. 2.83V into 8 ohms."

Read more at https://www.stereophile.com/content/boulder-amplifiers-2150-monoblock-power-amplifier-measurements#wOqHqK6YqRuPTi3V.99

$55,000/pair Dan D'Agostino monoblock - "The unweighted, wideband signal/noise ratio, ref. 2.83V into 8 ohms and taken with the input shorted, was a good 77.2dB."

https://www.stereophile.com/content/dan-dagostino-momentum-monoblock-power-amplifier-measurements

$30,000/pair Mark Levinson - "With the input shorted to ground, the Mark Levinson No.536 amplifier offered a wideband, unweighted signal/noise ratio of 71dB, ref. 1W into 8 ohms."

Read more at https://www.stereophile.com/content/mark-levinson-no536-monoblock-power-amplifier-measurements#k756T9cJJ6iexOcq.99

$30,000/pair AVM Ovation monoblock - "The wideband signal/noise ratio ref. 1W into 8 ohms, taken with the input shorted to ground, was okay, at 74.6dB".

Read more at https://www.stereophile.com/content/avm-ovation-ma82-monoblock-power-amplifier-measurements#SS1YtmDzy1iRCiiQ.99

$22,500/pair Krell 575 monoblock - "Measured with the balanced input shorted to ground, the unweighted, wideband signal/noise ratio was very good, at 78.2dB ref. 2.83V into 8 ohms."

Read more at https://www.stereophile.com/content/krell-solo-575-monoblock-power-amplifier-measurements#MvyPo05ozJ3q5SkR.99

$12,000/pair Theta Digital Prometheus monoblock - "the unweighted, wideband signal/noise ratio, ref. 2.83V into 8 ohms, was 76.3dB"

Read more at https://www.stereophile.com/content/theta-digital-prometheus-monoblock-power-amplifier-measurements#YvA30QF7EtsI8W1u.99

$12,000/pair Bryston monoblock - "The 7B SST2 is a quiet amplifier. Its unweighted signal/noise ratio (ref. 1W into 8 ohms) measured 75.6dB"

Read more at https://www.stereophile.com/content/bryston-7b-sstsup2sup-monoblock-power-amplifier-measurements#W2ckQg26tWeiXDml.99

$11,000/pair Pass Labs XA60.5 monoblock - "The unweighted, wideband signal/noise ratio, ref. 1W into 8 ohms and taken with the input shorted to ground, was a good 79dB."

Read more at https://www.stereophile.com/content/pass-labs-xa605-monoblock-power-amplifier-measurements#3GzBW1uS0hLJdEfZ.99

$50,000 Mark Levinson monoblock - "The No.53's unweighted, wideband signal/noise ratio, ref. 1W into 8 ohms with the input shorted, was therefore still lower than usual, at just 52.1dB."

Read more at https://www.stereophile.com/content/mark-levinson-no53-reference-monoblock-power-amplifier-measurements#7c2wKuYjVc5ogkov.99

So maybe we should lower that number down to 52dB?

Well, it is tough to argue against that!

I'll have to brush up on it, perhaps I was thinking the "weighted" SNR should be 80dB or better?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Well, it is tough to argue against that!

I'll have to brush up on it, perhaps I was thinking the "weighted" SNR should be 80dB or better?

I just added the $7,000/pair Anthem M1 monoblock SNR. It's only 10dB.

 

[slipperybidness]

I just added the $7,000/pair Anthem M1 monoblock SNR. It's only 10dB.

Perhaps you are proving my point that AMP SNR is not a critical parameter?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Perhaps you are proving my point that AMP SNR is not a critical parameter?

Maybe.

I think the SALIENT parameter may be the ability of the amp to output good dynamic power into 1 ohms, just in case the speaker has a minimum impedance of 1 ohms for a split second.

I wonder which high-end expensive amps have this awesome capability.

Why, look no further than the Denon 3805 AV Receiver, which outputted 170W into 1 ohm!

http://www.milleraudioresearch.com/download/reports/aug04/denonavr3805.html