Hi, I have the Goldenear Triton Ones along with a Marantz 8802a preamp. My current amp quit working

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I got my answer right from their president so hopefully it is accurate.

Did he tell you why not all their highly expensive Amps are fully balanced?

 

[<eargiant]

Any modern SS amp should have a ruler-flat FR for the entire audio spectrum. If it does not, then it is either a piece of crap out of the east, or it was intentionally designed with a rising FR.

Either of those situations should be avoided.

Amps are old tech, no magic, all understood, measured and characterized! Getting a "perfect copy of the input to the output" was accomplished long ago.

The only advancements to be made at this point are better efficiency, lighter weight, less heat, etc.

Designing two amps to measure "ruler flat" on the bench into a resistive or dummy load is easy. Making both amps perform equally well for a period of time when hit with the real world impedance swings of demanding speakers (even those within the rating of the amp) is another matter.

 

[slipperybidness]

Designing two amps to measure "ruler flat" on the bench into a resistive or dummy load is easy. Making both amps perform equally well for a period of time when hit with the real world impedance swings of demanding speakers (even those within the rating of the amp) is another matter.

Yeah, but that reality does not change the design goals!

Ruler flat freq response is a design goal, I didn't say it was the ONLY design goal.

Another design goal is "load invariant" amplifier. Of course, we will never get a 100% load-invariant amp, but we can get pretty dang close.

Douglas Self, literally wrote several books on proper amplifier design goals and how best to achieve those goals. Here is a board of his design:
http://www.signaltransfer.freeuk.com/invarint.htm

Again, these problems have already been solved!!!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Designing two amps to measure "ruler flat" on the bench into a resistive or dummy load is easy. Making both amps perform equally well for a period of time when hit with the real world impedance swings of demanding speakers (even those within the rating of the amp) is another matter.

Do you consider amps from ATI, Mark Levinson, Lexicon, Cary Audio, B&K, Theta Digital, Parasound, and Anthem to be high quality amps that can handle real world loads?

What do you think of that lab measurement that shows the Denon 3805 AVR can output 170W of Dynamic power into 1 ohms load?

 

[2channel lover]

I guess the measurements determine if a speaker gets a bright or warm label.

B&Ws 804m have been called "warm" and maybe they are, but after 20 yrs "warm" was the norm for me.

I've heard the 1 and the 2+/3+ GE Tritons...I thought all were good sounding speakers...they were a tad brighter than the B&Ws I listened to the same day, but again I've heard B&Ws called warm in the past.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Fully truly balanced. It makes no sense to me why Amps that cost this much are not fully balanced. No sense.

I don't know about that. Dual-differential output stages are of questionable audible benefit. A balanced input stage is probably what's important, but even there you really need to be using XLR interconnects with a balanced pre-amp.

Personally, I think it is foolhardy to be choosing an amp based on a consumer's perception of circuit design choices.

 

[slipperybidness]

I don't know about that. Dual-differential output stages are of questionable audible benefit. A balanced input stage is probably what's important, but even there you really need to be using XLR interconnects with a balanced pre-amp.

Personally, I think it is foolhardy to be choosing an amp based on a consumer's perception of circuit design choices.

Oh, there is no question that fully differential designs are superior (on paper)

 

[Irvrobinson]

Oh, there is no question that fully differential designs are superior (on paper)

What exactly do you mean by "fully differential"?

 

[slipperybidness]

What exactly do you mean by "fully differential"?

Fair question, and perhaps I left it open ended purposefully

Typically, I would consider that as a differential input at the preamp, and differential all the way to the outputs, but likely not a differential output stage.

Honestly, I haven't really studied up on a real differential output to the speakers....that does not seem to be a popular design for some reason?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Dual-differential output stages are of questionable audible benefit.

I agree.

But I can say the same thing about most of the "features", specs, and designs people look for.

A lot of people look at SNR, Crosstalk, THD, Power output, etc. and many other design features that don't really prove to be significant in the real world for most people. But they still base their decisions on these features and specs.

Some people make fun of B&W, DefTech, GoldenEar, Wilson Audio, etc., on-axis and off-axis FR measurements. Yet, many people in the real world don't see any issues at all. But it's okay for people to use speaker measurements when deciding what to buy if they want.

Some people claim that Active speakers sound much better than Passive speakers. They base their decisions on this feature. Yet, there's no proof that Active is better than passive.

It doesn't matter if the benefits are equivocal. There are features that some people simply desire.

The salient feature for me wasn't dual-differential design. It was the big front metal handles.


But in case anyone is wondering, I use balanced cables to connect my fully balanced Pre-pro to my fully balanced amps.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Fair question, and perhaps I left it open ended purposefully

Typically, I would consider that as a differential input at the preamp, and differential all the way to the outputs, but likely not a differential output stage.

Honestly, I haven't really studied up on a real differential output to the speakers....that does not seem to be a popular design for some reason?

Perhaps what you don't realize is that all standard amplifier output stages are differential. (There are so-called single-ended specialty amps, like those from First Watt, but they are so rare as to be irrelevant.)

So-called "fully balanced" amplifiers sometimes use dual-differential output stages, meaning that there are two balanced stages balanced together, often with just a single-balanced input stage, but some amps are what's called "balanced bridged", which means you take two complete amplifiers, from input to output, and then use them as a differential pair.

Like I said, I think making a buying decision based on the amplifier designer's choices is a poorly-conceived strategy. All that matters is how it measures.

 

[Irvrobinson]

The salient feature for me wasn't dual-differential design. It was the big front metal handles.

Your honesty is admirable. My criteria was whether or not the amplifier contributed to listening fatigue with my speakers. At least your criteria isn't controversial.

But in case anyone is wondering, I use balanced cables to connect my fully balanced Pre-pro to my fully balanced amps.

Me too. End-to-end balanced systems should have measurably lower even-order distortion and noise. Whether that makes an audible difference or not is another matter, but I like the idea that it does. I also like the satisfying "click" a well-built XLR connector makes when you plug it in - a benefit that isn't subject to opinion, it just is.

 

[slipperybidness]

Like I said, I think making a buying decision based on the amplifier designer's choices is a poorly-conceived strategy. All that matters is how it measures.

I concede on that point.

And, what are the critical measurements?

Ruler-flat FR, low THD+N, and CONTINUOUS power measurements.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I concede on that point.

And, what are the critical measurements?

Ruler-flat FR, low THD+N, and CONTINUOUS power measurements.

Dynamic Power Output into 1 ohms.

 

[slipperybidness]

Dynamic Power Output into 1 ohms.

i.e. "Arc Welder"

 

[Irvrobinson]

I concede on that point.

And, what are the critical measurements?

Ruler-flat FR, low THD+N, and CONTINUOUS power measurements.

1-watt unfiltered and unweighted SNR.

FFT distortion plots at 1-watt and rated power (the latter into 4-ohms, IMO).

 

[slipperybidness]

1-watt unfiltered and unweighted SNR.

FFT distortion plots at 1-watt and rated power (the latter into 4-ohms, IMO).

Yeah.....SNR is not considered a critical parameter for a POWER amp. If you think about it, that is really tied up in that "THD+N" parameter anyway.

Now, for a PRE-amp, the SNR is THE critical parameter.

NOT my words....I can provide references from amp construction manuals. By memory, I believe it was one of G. Randy Sloan's books that provided this insight.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Yeah.....SNR is not considered a critical parameter for a POWER amp. If you think about it, that is really tied up in that "THD+N" parameter anyway.

I disagree.

 

[PENG]

Did he tell you why not all their highly expensive Amps are fully balanced?

He said there were a large number of sound sources that are unbalanced in the world, and being an overly complicated product couple of reasons why they hadn't gone with that road with the preamps. Read between the lines, why spent money on areas that does not improve sound quality. He also told me it didn't mean they wouldn't do it at some point. Again, I read between the lines, that if they ever go down that road it won't be for sound quality. I think by now, you and I both know the point of diminishing return applies to audiophile products as well.

 

[slipperybidness]

I disagree.

Well, like I say, you are not disagreeing with me, you are disagreeing with the experts that literally wrote the books on amp construction.

I'm just telling you what I have read from the literature, and he had corresponding arguments to back up those claims.