Help with Amplifier

[MacManNM]

What???????

DC???? Please tell me that you made a simple mistake??? THERE IS NO DC AT CLIPPING!!! Are you insinuating then that a square wave is a DC signal????
You are way out in left field.

Read the 9th and 10th poster where they discuss just this very same silly DC issue:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.audio.misc/browse_thread/thread/f35bbfa2dab67181/ff63c42a0db22c8c?lnk=st&q=amp+clipping&rnum=3#ff63c42a0db22c8c



Yes, I saw after my post and others where he clarified that he blew his main driver. So what. His guest just over powered the driver. IT is excess POWER over the rated power that smokes the drivers, not clipping per say.

As to your other comment on tweeters, well, they are the ones that seem to smoke when amps are clipped!!!!!! You know why???? Tweeters are way under powered compared to the other drivers!!! The Power to them from the harmonics, a result of clipping, is too powerful for the tweeters, they smoke. Read the links!!! There is no DC at CLIPPING anywhere!!!!

You are clueless. Any signal a that exceeds a components (drivers in this instance) bandwith appears as DC to that component. Thermal effects take over.

 

[mtrycrafts]

You are clueless. Any signal a that exceeds a components (drivers in this instance) bandwith appears as DC to that component. Thermal effects take over.

Did you even bother to read the attached link and the other 3 links???? Do so, maybe someone will get a clue what is going on????

 

[MacManNM]

There is no DC at clipping; another audio myth. Please read the 9th and 10th posters at this link that discuss this very same issue. NO DC anywhere It has sine wave AC harmanics creating what looks like a square wave, AC

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.audio.misc/browse_thread/thread/f35bbfa2dab67181/ff63c42a0db22c8c?lnk=st&q=amp+clipping&rnum=3#ff63c42a0db22c8c

When an amp clips the output essentially turns into pulsed DC. A square wave is pulsed DC. BTW, how about doing a spell check on your posts? I’m tired of translating your poor spelling, and grammar for that matter.

 

[mulester7]

You are clueless. Any signal a that exceeds a components (drivers in this instance) bandwith appears as DC to that component. Thermal effects take over.

.....Mac, you're wasting your time.....you speak from practical experience, he speaks from what others have said....hooray, Mtry can read....I'll take your opinions and reportings every day......

 

[MacManNM]

Did you even bother to read the attached link and the other 3 links???? Do so, maybe someone will get a clue what is going on????

Do you even understand the physics behind it?

 

[MacManNM]

.....Mac, you're wasting your time.....you speak from practical experience, he speaks from what others have said....hooray, Mtry can read....I'll take your opinions and reportings every day......

I know. I said I wouldn't get sucked into this crap anymore, yet where am I?

 

[PENG]

There is no DC at clipping; another audio myth. Please read the 9th and 10th posters at this link that discuss this very same issue. NO DC anywhere It has sine wave AC harmanics creating what looks like a square wave, AC

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.audio.misc/browse_thread/thread/f35bbfa2dab67181/ff63c42a0db22c8c?lnk=st&q=amp+clipping&rnum=3#ff63c42a0db22c8c

You can analyze a distorted sine wave as the sum of pure sine waves of fundamental frequency and harmonic frequency components and yes, depending on the particular waveform, that could include d.c. components as well. This is not myth. mtrycrafts, this time it is your turn to browse the web a bit more, try searching Fourier analysis. I think when it comes to this stuff, Mac knows what he's talking about. He has his opinions and I don't always agree with him neither, but he knows his stuff.

 

[Votrax]

Hence it's not DC. See the crossover is a filter, the transients get through, but the DC that creates thermal problems doesn't. Of course this is true until you short the cap in the crossover, and grenade the driver.

Don't mind my brain fart. The high pass filter is in series thus won't actually pass the full clipped signal, though it will be quite distorted.

 

[MacManNM]

You can analyze a distorted sine wave as the sum of pure sine waves of fundamental frequency and harmonic frequency components and yes, that include d.c. components as well. This is not myth. mtrycrafts, this time it is your turn to browse the web a bit more, try searching Fourier analysis. I think when it comes to this stuff, Mac knows what he's talking about. He has his opinions and I don't always agree with him neither, but he knows his stuff.

Thanks, I think You are right about the DC. the key here is to see how each COMPONENT reacts to the input energy. In this case, because the component can't respond fast enough, it sees the input as DC. My point is, it's all relative.

 

[Votrax]

You can analyze a distorted sine wave as the sum of pure sine waves of fundamental frequency and harmonic frequency components and yes, that include d.c. components as well. This is not myth. mtrycrafts, this time it is your turn to browse the web a bit more, try searching Fourier analysis. I think when it comes to this stuff, Mac knows what he's talking about. He has his opinions and I don't always agree with him neither, but he knows his stuff.

PENG is correct. A clipped signal essentially saturates the output transistors which acts as a switch delivering the DC rail voltage directly to the driver. It may only last a short duration, but it is like putting DC directly to the driver for a short amount of time.

 

[mulester7]

.....yet another "sound" argument for big watts.....

 

[MacManNM]

.....yet another "sound" argument for big watts.....

punn intended Ronnie?

 

[MacManNM]

PENG is correct. A clipped signal essentially saturates the output transistors which acts as a switch delivering the DC rail voltage directly to the driver. It may only last a short duration, but it is like putting DC directly to the driver for a short amount of time.

Your assessment is correct. This is my point. To the component it LOOKS like DC because the component can't react that fast!

 

[mulester7]

punn intended Ronnie?

.....aaaaaand yes, John.....

 

[MacManNM]

.....aaaaaand yes, John.....

as always LOL Ronnie

 

[jaxvon]

I'm definitely with Mac on this one. Mtry, if you're going to claim "Audio myth" on stuff, I hope that next time you actually understand what you're talking about. Do you have a doctorate in physics? Or for that matter, do you have any education at all in electrical engineering/electromagnetic physics? It seems you do not...

 

[MacManNM]

You know it's funny, when you are confronted you seem to run for cover.........Mrty. I guess you have to consult with wmax so you can get an answer. It's ok, at least one of you can think. I guess this thread is over, the dude got his answer, he needs to get some PA speakers and a pounding amp so he can have some kick A** parties!

 

[PENG]

PENG is correct. A clipped signal essentially saturates the output transistors which acts as a switch delivering the DC rail voltage directly to the driver. It may only last a short duration, but it is like putting DC directly to the driver for a short amount of time.

Actually I edited my post just to clarify that whether you can expect d.c. component in the distorted (clipped) signal depends on the waveform. It has been years since I did anything with Fourier analysis but I think if the waveform is symmetrical about the X-axis, you don't have d.c. components, just harmonics. When the amp clips, I would think the waveform will not necessarily be always symmetrical, in that case it will have a "d.c." offset and hence d.c. component. I am talking from the electrical/mathematical stand point. I know others, like you and Mac, can explain it better in physical terms. Don't attack me if I am not totally correct. I need to go back to my text books but its getting late.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Actually I edited my post just to clarify that whether you can expect d.c. component in the distorted (clipped) signal depends on the waveform. It has been years since I did anything with Fourier analysis but I think if the waveform is symmetrical about the X-axis, you don't have d.c. components, just harmonics. When the amp clips, I would think the waveform will not necessarily be always symmetrical, in that case it will have a "d.c." offset and hence d.c. component. I am talking from the electrical/mathematical stand point. I know others, like you and Mac, can explain it better in physical terms. Don't attack me if I am not totally correct. I need to go back to my text books but its getting late.

Precisely what is in that link I posted, by Richard Pierce


Richard D Pierce Apr 8 1999, 12:00 am show options

Newsgroups: rec.audio.pro, rec.audio.tech, rec.audio.misc, rec.audio.opinion
From: DPie...@world.std.com (Richard D Pierce) - Find messages by this author
Date: 1999/04/08
Subject: Re: Amp Clipping
Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse



In article <7ej551$21...@nonews.col.hp.com>, <R...@nospam.com> wrote:

>: > This is true, because when an amp clips all the power suddenly
>: becomes
>: > high frequency power and overdrives the tweeters, usually.


>When an amp clips, all the power suddenly becomes low frequency power,
>otherwise called "DC". This is what overdrives and burns out speakers.



Wrong, if the amp is clipping symmetrically, there will be no such "DC
component.


> ______ <--DC Component
> / \
> / \
>--/ \ /
> \ /
> \ /
> \_____/


The diagram, as you show, has no real DC component. The existance of a
flat-top waveform does NOT mean a DC componennt

Further, if your assertion were true, and it is the low frequency signals
that cause the damage, then the damage would occur mostly on woofers when,
in fact, the actual statistics scene in the field are quite the opposite:
it is the high-frequency compoents that suffer the jhighest incidence of
damage: tweeters. If it was low-frequency signals, they would be
effectively blocked by the tweeter crossover, and even the simplest of
two-way systems has a capacitor in series with the wteeter that quite
effectively blocks DC from ever reaching it.


--
| **** Pierce |
| Professional Audio Development |
| 1-781/826-4953 Voice and FAX |
| DPie...@world.std.com |

 

[mtrycrafts]

When an amp clips the output essentially turns into pulsed DC. A square wave is pulsed DC. BTW, how about doing a spell check on your posts? I’m tired of translating your poor spelling, and grammar for that matter.

Read that link, will you. Stop embarrassing yourself


Richard D Pierce Apr 8 1999, 12:00 am show options

Newsgroups: rec.audio.pro, rec.audio.tech, rec.audio.misc, rec.audio.opinion
From: DPie...@world.std.com (Richard D Pierce) - Find messages by this author
Date: 1999/04/08
Subject: Re: Amp Clipping
Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse



In article <7ej551$21...@nonews.col.hp.com>, <R...@nospam.com> wrote:

>: > This is true, because when an amp clips all the power suddenly
>: becomes
>: > high frequency power and overdrives the tweeters, usually.


>When an amp clips, all the power suddenly becomes low frequency power,
>otherwise called "DC". This is what overdrives and burns out speakers.



Wrong, if the amp is clipping symmetrically, there will be no such "DC
component.


> ______ <--DC Component
> / \
> / \
>--/ \ /
> \ /
> \ /
> \_____/


The diagram, as you show, has no real DC component. The existance of a
flat-top waveform does NOT mean a DC componennt

Further, if your assertion were true, and it is the low frequency signals
that cause the damage, then the damage would occur mostly on woofers when,
in fact, the actual statistics scene in the field are quite the opposite:
it is the high-frequency compoents that suffer the jhighest incidence of
damage: tweeters. If it was low-frequency signals, they would be
effectively blocked by the tweeter crossover, and even the simplest of
two-way systems has a capacitor in series with the wteeter that quite
effectively blocks DC from ever reaching it.


--
| **** Pierce |
| Professional Audio Development |
| 1-781/826-4953 Voice and FAX |
| DPie...@world.std.com |