Headphones vs. speakers

[ProBowler]

Does anyone have direct experience comparing headphones to speakers in a home theater? I am debating between Grado GS1000 or similar headphones and say, Aeprion Intimus 5T-6C Hybrid HD or similar system. In other words, either system with amps, etc. would run about 4 grand. The theater would strictly be for my wife and I in a room that wasn't constructed with a home theater in mind. That is to say the sheetrocked walls aren't insulated and it has a drop ceiling. What else, if anything, do you need to know? Thanks!

 

[Boerd]

Does anyone have direct experience comparing headphones to speakers in a home theater? I am debating between Grado GS1000 or similar headphones and say, Aeprion Intimus 5T-6C Hybrid HD or similar system. In other words, either system with amps, etc. would run about 4 grand. The theater would strictly be for my wife and I in a room that wasn't constructed with a home theater in mind. That is to say the sheetrocked walls aren't insulated and it has a drop ceiling. What else, if anything, do you need to know? Thanks!

WOOOW...
Oranges vs apples - let's give it a try

What I will be comparing below are uber speakers vs uber cans (Grados GS1000 ARE UBER cans - not so sure about Aperion Intimus 5T)

1. Bass - though you can find headphones to go as low as 20-25 Hz the sub is still more spectacular. You can feel it in your chest not only hear it
2. Imaging - much better for good speakers. The image is in front of you - you can say where the violin is; where the piano is and so on. While you listen to cans the music "is in the back of your head" - no spatial sense at all.
3. In respect to distortion - equally good
4. At high output you can find cans that distort less than speakers - so you can go deaf on clean loud music for a lot less

BUT - they serve different purpose...

Really - make up your mind if you want cans or speakers...

For movies I think cans are a NO-NO - all those explosions and such - without a sub? No way
On the other hand Grados GS1000 is an uber can - they don't get any better than that.

 

[GranteedEV]

Headphone Pros

Strong Dynamic Range
Room Independant low frequencies
Excellent phase response
Low distortion and quick decay


Headphone Cons

The way headphones couple to every person's individual ears means there is no way to scientifically make a headphone which "sounds the same" - the in-ear resonance relative to the cans will actually change what you hear.
I can't think of a model for ideal headphone frequency response
All spatial information can only be drawn from what exists in the recorded content - there are no late reflections
Image does not have a distance from you unless it is a binaural recording
Recorded content is rarely mixed with headphones.
Limited to the individual - family or friends will be left out

Speaker Pros
Done right, the room can give the right ambience to most recordings.
Done right, imaging can almost reproduce location
Industry research has given us a lot of factors in describing an accurate loudspeaker objectively.
Bass is felt as well as heard
What we hear is consistent between people - not altered by the transfer functions of our own ears' resonance.

Speaker Cons
Done wrong, the room can color the sound greatly, reducing tonal accuracy and precision of details.
Done wrong, seating position and speaker placement can adversely affect sound
Doing it right can be very expensive and complex
We must use multiple drivers - and truth is, most speakers don't measure very well on things like polar response or phase response.



I don't think high end headphones can give the illusion of a real life performance the way a true multichannel setup can. You're right though, high end speakers are expensive while those Grados are on a whole nother level.

Even then, I'd say there's nothing like the "magic" of sound floating in front of you, even on a stereo setup if not multichannel. If you've got 4k, you should buy something like a pair of Gedlee Abbey speakers (4400/pair or 3400/pair if you're willing to do a bit of kit assembly). That I believe will surely beat out the Grados, although it isn't a true multichannel setup. What they wouldn't have, though, is deep bass - you will need to add two or three subwoofers to handle anything below 100hz. That will drive paid cost up signficantly of course. My recommendation for a subwoofer, unless you're willing to DIY, would be a pair of Epik Empires I guess.

The Aperions are good, but I wouldn't expect them to sound more detailed or tonally accurate than the Grados, at least not before some serious room treatment (they would be much more prone to room interactions).

 

[bikemig]

While I don't have direct experience comparing headphones to speakers in a home theater, I have often compared them for music. I am in the process of putting together a home theater and I hope to make it sound as good as my cans. I recently purchased a pair of Sennheiser 595 HD headphones and they are clearly better than anything else I own or have recently heard or auditioned. They are my reference point now and I'm trying to put together a home theater system at least as good (if not better) than the Sennheiser phones.

 

[MinusTheBear]

Get both. A pair of headphones and a HT System.

For headphones I would recommend the Beyerdynamic DT880. As for an HT system there are so many good budget choices out there - Ascend, SVS, Aperion just to name a few. You do not need to handicap yourself with one or the other.

When it comes to frequency response headphones should have a gradual taper in the upper midrange and treble for a tonally accurate, natural sounding headphone. Something severely lacking on Grado's. Grado's are voiced with a lot of "wow" factor with quality recordings for short listening sessions. Over emphasis in the mid-bass and upper midrange/treble. Over time with a wide variety of recordings they are a fatiguing listening experience.

 

[GranteedEV]

BTW, Even though I'm sure they sound great, I just can't bring myself to believe that this is going to be a truly tonally accurate headphone:

 

[MidnightSensi2]

Those crossfeeds seem to help get the imaging 'out of your head' effect away a lot. Basically, they cross some level of the L and R channel before the headphones to create more of a room effect, but...I don't own one or know enough to talk about them.

I love headphones for electronic music, especially ambient stuff. Sort of stuff that is kinda 'in your head.' I have Beyerdynamic DT770s and Shure e500s, among other headphones. I love the Shure's for travel. With just a Nano and the Shure's I have great sound that is smaller than my cell phone. Beyer's I like in bed.

But, yeah, movies, music... if I can choose, I prefer regular ol speakers.

 

[ProBowler]

Well, thanks for the insight. If I understand you correctly, you are clearly leaning to decent speakers vs. Grado or even Sennheiser HD800's or Ultrasone Edition 8's. Okay, your argument makes sense. BUT, and it's a big BUT, does that take in to consideration the fact that this finished room I will use for viewing is acoustically verklempt?

 

[MidnightSensi2]

Well, thanks for the insight. If I understand you correctly, you are clearly leaning to decent speakers vs. Grado or even Sennheiser HD800's or Ultrasone Edition 8's. Okay, your argument makes sense. BUT, and it's a big BUT, does that take in to consideration the fact that this finished room I will use for viewing is acoustically verklempt?

Nearfield monitors and acoustic treatments.

Hehe, I donno man, do you know your room is acoustically verklempt (assuming from context that is a german word for poor/bad?)? Could it be easily treated?

 

[ProBowler]

As an adjunct to my response a moment ago, let me add this. I will *** U ME that no matter how good headsets are, after 2 or 3 hours of wearing they must be a bit uncomfortable, right? My wife and I constantly complain that we can't hear the dialogue in a movie very clearly, sometimes not at all. If we could just hear the talking - - - I know, I know, any good headset above $250 or decent speakers will solve that problem right? We aren't looking for whiz bang, booming, thunder-clap sound, just near enough to movie theater quality (in a limited budget) to enjoy the show. I'd buy speakers in a heartbeat if you folks thought my room wouldn't destroy the quality of the sound. H E L P !!!

 

[ProBowler]

The room in question is in my basement. It is an 11' x 14' x 7' room with a drop ceiling and uninsulated sheetrocked walls with wall-to-wall carpet. Whaddaya think?

This is going to make me sound really screwed up but the other part of the equation is whether I buy a 65" plasma or a projector. Bigger is better but I don't know if the quality of say an Epson projector is in the same league as a plasma. A question for another day.

Would you put speakers in my room? Which ones if you had about $2,500 to spens?

 

[GranteedEV]

The room in question is in my basement. It is an 11' x 14' x 7' room with a drop ceiling and uninsulated sheetrocked walls with wall-to-wall carpet. Whaddaya think?

This is going to make me sound really screwed up but the other part of the equation is whether I buy a 65" plasma or a projector. Bigger is better but I don't know if the quality of say an Epson projector is in the same league as a plasma. A question for another day.

Would you put speakers in my room? Which ones if you had about $2,500 to spens?

As I said earlier, the off axis response of different speakers determines what you hear at the seating position in a real life room.

For example, the Gedlee Speakers I suggested earlier:

DO you see how above 1khz or so, the dispersion pattern is very wide out to 45 to 60 degrees, and drops off considerably out of that region?

This will reduce the earliest of audible reflections in your room, but later reflections will still exist.

Based on various perceptual research, you actually want a ton of later reflections in order to give a lifelike ambience.

So if you buy constant directivity type speakers, you will not require "room treatments" (band-aids).

Another example of constant directivity speakers are dipoles:

http://www.musicanddesign.com/NaO_NoteDetails.html

Beyond that, there's also Omnipole speakers

http://www.linkwitzlab.com/Pluto/intro.htm

which is a VERY different approach to the room equation.

Instead of taking away early reflections, it maximizes them, but makes them virtually identical to the off axis sound. Therefore placement is a bit different(must be closer to you in order to have a great ratio of on-axis to off-axis sound).

The common theme with the above three types of speakers is that because the off-axis response closely mimics the on-axis response, all reflections they produce are DESIRED reflections.

 

[MinusTheBear]

You do not need to get the $1000 flagship headphone to get exceptional headphone performance. Headphone sound and build quality diminish greatly after the $300 area. In fact manufacturers like Shure and Audio Technica put out some great sounding headphones at the $100 price point. There is no need to be in the mindset to choose one over the other.

 

[highfigh]

BTW, Even though I'm sure they sound great, I just can't bring myself to believe that this is going to be a truly tonally accurate headphone:

Remember, that curve is almost the inverse of the Fletcher-Munson curve, so it will sound pretty even across the frequency range. Flat speaker response is only for testing and validating the design- it doesn't mean the speaker and room will create the same response together.

 

[GranteedEV]

Remember, that curve is almost the inverse of the Fletcher-Munson curve, so it will sound pretty even across the frequency range.

That doesn't make sense.

The Fletcher-Munson curve describes our perception of frequencies.
"Sounding pretty even" has nothing to do with sounding natural.
if in real life we hear 100hz "as being 60db" at 70db, then what sounds natural is for 100hz to seem 10db down when it hits our ears at that volume. We don't want to boost that to being louder - it doesn't make sense unless we're listening at unnatural volumes - IE listening to something recorded at 70db but listening at 45db. Then yes, we want to mimic the response at 70db because that is a lifelike listening volume. The fletcher munson-curves are volume dependant - does that mean those cans sound ideal at high volumes where our fletcher-munson curves all of a sudden become near-flat? If this makes 40db sound like 70db, that might be a good thing, but then 70db will not sound like 70db, and 100db will definitely not sound like 100db... it will sound like 150db or something - just fatiguing.

Because what we hear scales with how loud it is, we need flat response for it to represent a lifelike recording at lifelike volumes. Sure a colored speaker or in this case headphone might sound clearer at low volumes but that will NOT scale. You need to do volume based intelligibility compensation digitally in order to scale it based on volume - you can't hard wire it into a speaker or headphone.

I'll admit that the science behind target curves for headphones is not my forte, but I still doubt those grados represent the pinnacle of flat perceived frequency response.

Flat (on-axis) speaker response is only for testing and validating the design- it doesn't mean the speaker and room will create the same response together.

You're right. And that is why we need speakers which are not a mess off axis where reflections will alter the sound in the room. Dr. Sean Olive seems to think so.

 

[gpost3]

This is a very stupid question and most certainly you can answer it yourself.

Headphones are designed for private listening. Just like speakers, they come in different quality.

Speakers tend to have wider sound stage because unlike headphones, they are not on your head.

Other variables that come into play for headphones are comfort and ergonomics which do not affect external speakers. Room's dimension and acoustic has no affect on headphones because... well guess, because they are so close to your head!.

You shouldn't ask questions that have a trivial answer and you can answer it for yourself. Grados or $2000+ headphones are still designed for "Private Listening" and all the above that I mentioned applies to them as well. You cannot change the laws of physics.