How much better do better speakers actually sound? Where's the breaking point of value/performance?

[Mikado463]

In a forum format, its so easy to get wrapped around the axle and end up sounding like a quarreling old married couple. I will bet if a number of you sat down in a living room or around a bar, this whole idea of where's the sweet spot would have a group all shaking their heads together in no time. I think most people here with more than 200 posts appreciate price performance and the law of diminishing returns. Its why you're hanging out on AH and not on AVS Forum or the "What's Best?" in audio forums. Those guys are nuts for spending money on stuff that just doesn't do much for most of the folks who are AH regulars.

Where's the sweet spot in spending for speakers? If you're in your 20's I would bet its different than when your earning power increases and you've listened to a bunch more speakers and you're in your 40's. The patience to look longer and take your time also increases with experience. (at least it might).

I like the AH point of view. Its danged practical.

well said .......

 

[Bucknekked]

Some insist vinyl sounds the best to them, some digital, some concentrate on the piece rather than the medium. So many good speakers out there, at many price points, for various purposes/tastes....

You are 100% correct. The individualized tastes are prominent in our hobby. Probably the one that makes me smile the most is the group that thinks vinyl is the best medium. Followed closely of course by the tubers and their warm sound. I don't knock any of it since if someone genuinely enjoys what they listen to, its no skin off my nose. I don't even mind if while they are standing in their living rooms they brag up a storm about it. The only heartburn I get is when OP's come to a forum like this and post B.S. as if it were the gospel and we should all acknowledge their great insights.

Speakers are kinda tough because unlike vinyl or tubes, there isn't a clear technology differentiator or shortfall. A crappy speaker looks pretty much like a great one from the outside. There are measurements of course to help us winnow the wheat from the chaff. But, in the end, its how it sounds to the individual that will carry the day.

Its part of what makes this an interesting hobby and what makes the AH an interesting place to post and read.
You never know what the next OP is gonna login and post. Could be audio gold, or it could be pure B.S.

 

[panteragstk]

I personally think everyone's sweet spot money wise is how much they spent on their current setup that they love.

The sweet spot for me usually moves up when I hears a system that sounds much better than what I currently have.

That happened to me when I was used to watching everything on my projector. Once I got my current Panasonic VT60 my first thought after watching for a few days was "now I need a new PJ because this picture is SO much better."

Same thing happened when I got my current theater speakers. My cheap Pioneers just don't cut it anymore.

 

[aarons915]

Of course, it's 100% personal and subjective.

If I were putting a number to it, bookshelf speakers shouldn't need to be more than $1,200 and towers shouldn't have to be more than $5,000.

I'd say that is pretty accurate, I've listened to every bookshelf speaker I'm interested in under 2k and have concluded for me that I'd have to jump up to KEF reference ones to get a decent upgrade. I'm definitely not spending 8k on speakers anytime soon.

5k on towers gets you Revel F208 or KEF R11, I don't think you get a worthwhile upgrade to either of those unless you want to spend 20k on the Salon 2 or Reference 5 for a small improvement.

 

[snakeeyes]

Hmm. There are different categories....

2.0

2.1

5.1

5.2

Atmos....

I have to say the theater guys need that ideal center.,,.

 

[2channel lover]

agreed



unfortunately the real world speaks differently. While you can get a very nice pair of speakers for 5k there is no way they will compete sonically with those costing many times more. Am I saying every high dollar speaker is worth the $$, no, rather we all have our definition as to where the 'sweet spot' lies.

IMO 15k + or - a couple thousand is the mark.

Logically it has some merit OEM speaker to OEM speaker, I certainly did find speakers that sounded as good and better than mine in the $10k and up price range, but this not an absolute.

My speakers were <$4k for the L & R. I have not done anything aside from listen to them but the Paradigm Persona 5F...2.0 to 2.0 didn't separate from my Salks, neither did the B&W804 D3 and these speakers were $8500 and $9000 respectively.

 

[Bucknekked]

My speakers were <$4k for the L & R. I have not done anything aside from listen to them but the Paradigm Persona 5F...2.0 to 2.0 didn't separate from my Salks, neither did the B&W804 D3 and these speakers were $8500 and $9000 respectively.

Dem Salks is pretty awesome. High fives................

 

[baronvonellis]

Yea, I haven't heard Revel F208. But going by the specs they are close to the Salk Song 3. 88 db sensitive 8 ohm, 8 inch woofer, beefy heavy cabinetry. The Satori 8" woofer Salk uses is probably better since you only need 1 to get 88 db sensitivity. Revel is doubling up on woofers to get 88 db sensitivity, and you wont get phase cancellation issues from the Satori 8" woofer like you would with 2 woofers. Salk also makes much better, beautifully finished cabinets, and they are $2000 less than the Revel. I'm guessing that the Raal tweeter sounds alot better than the aluminum tweeter Revel has, I've never like aluminum tweeters personally.

I've listened to the Paradigm Persona towers at Axpona, I liked the Salks better personally.

 

[shadyJ]

Yea, I haven't heard Revel F208. But going by the specs they are close to the Salk Song 3. 88 db sensitive 8 ohm, 8 inch woofer, beefy heavy cabinetry. The Satori 8" woofer Salk uses is probably better since you only need 1 to get 88 db sensitivity. Revel is doubling up on woofers to get 88 db sensitivity, and you wont get phase cancellation issues from the Satori 8" woofer like you would with 2 woofers. Salk also makes much better, beautifully finished cabinets, and they are $2000 less than the Revel. I'm guessing that the Raal tweeter sounds alot better than the aluminum tweeter Revel has, I've never like aluminum tweeters personally.

I've listened to the Paradigm Persona towers at Axpona, I liked the Salks better personally.

You wouldn't get phase cancellation from the Revel woofers. Also the sensitivity spec isn't that meaningful without greater context.

 

[Mikado463]

Dem Salks is pretty awesome. High fives................

and beautiful to look at as well !

 

[shadyJ]

Logically it has some merit OEM speaker to OEM speaker, I certainly did find speakers that sounded as good and better than mine in the $10k and up price range, but this not an absolute.

My speakers were <$4k for the L & R. I have not done anything aside from listen to them but the Paradigm Persona 5F...2.0 to 2.0 didn't separate from my Salks, neither did the B&W804 D3 and these speakers were $8500 and $9000 respectively.

Keep in mind that the Persona speakers and also the B&Ws probably have a much greater dynamic range. I'm guessing you could drive those way beyond a point where the Salks would give up the ghost. Of course, that is a moot point if you never listen that loud, but there are those who do and for whom the other speakers would be a better fit. Personally, I am not into high SPL listening though.

 

[2channel lover]

Yea, I haven't heard Revel F208. But going by the specs they are close to the Salk Song 3. 88 db sensitive 8 ohm, 8 inch woofer, beefy heavy cabinetry. The Satori 8" woofer Salk uses is probably better since you only need 1 to get 88 db sensitivity. Revel is doubling up on woofers to get 88 db sensitivity, and you wont get phase cancellation issues from the Satori 8" woofer like you would with 2 woofers. Salk also makes much better, beautifully finished cabinets, and they are $2000 less than the Revel. I'm guessing that the Raal tweeter sounds alot better than the aluminum tweeter Revel has, I've never like aluminum tweeters personally.

I've listened to the Paradigm Persona towers at Axpona, I liked the Salks better personally.

F208 is a great speaker...stronger bass than my speakers, the mid/hi I preferred the Salks.

 

[baronvonellis]

You wouldn't get phase cancellation from the Revel woofers. Also the sensitivity spec isn't that meaningful without greater context.

Nevermind, I guess in bass phase cancellation isn't a problem like in high frequencies.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I'm guessing that the Raal tweeter sounds a lot better than the aluminum tweeter

I don't think it sounds any better at all, but I guess everyone has a different opinion.

IMO, the salient factor is the overall design of the speaker, not an individual driver type.

 

[2channel lover]

Keep in mind that the Persona speakers and also the B&Ws probably have a much greater dynamic range. I'm guessing you could drive those way beyond a point where the Salks would give up the ghost. Of course, that is a moot point if you never listen that loud, but there are those who do and for whom the other speakers would be a better fit. Personally, I am not into high SPL listening though.

Yeah, both speakers sounded good. I'm not sure if they actually did have much greater dynamic range, but for more than double the price, I'm willing to grant them some performance improvements over the Salks. Being an owner of 800 series B&Ws, I spent a lot of time with the B&Ws (before and after the Salks arrived)...you're paying a hefty premium for the brand.

 

[baronvonellis]

Keep in mind that the Persona speakers and also the B&Ws probably have a much greater dynamic range. I'm guessing you could drive those way beyond a point where the Salks would give up the ghost. Of course, that is a moot point if you never listen that loud, but there are those who do and for whom the other speakers would be a better fit. Personally, I am not into high SPL listening though.

What do you mean by dynamic range? How does one speaker have more dynamic range? Wouldn't 2 speakers that have the same sensitivity be equally as loud? Isn't that what that measures?

 

[shadyJ]

I'm not sure if they actually did have much greater dynamic range, but for more than double the price, I'm willing to grant them some performance improvements over the Salks. Being an owner of 800 series B&Ws, I spent a lot of time with the B&Ws (before and after the Salks arrived)...you're paying a hefty premium for the brand.

If you have seen the motor structures for the Persona drivers, they are pretty incredible. These are very heavy duty drivers that can take a ton of power. I had some Persona 5Fs for awhile and a 200watt per channel Anthem amp, they can get frighteningly loud without breaking a sweat. I am not sure that anything from Salk could keep up, but Salk has different performance goals. I think the Personas were engineered to handle a wider range of conditions. But then again, they are far more expensive.

What do you mean by dynamic range? How does one speaker have more dynamic range? Wouldn't 2 speakers that have the same sensitivity be equally as loud? Isn't that what that measures?

Sensitivity is not a measure of dynamic range. It only tells you how loud something can get for a certain amount of power. You could have a driver that is more sensitive than another, yet if it can't take much power before tapping out, than a driver with lesser sensitivity but much greater power handling can easily have greater dynamic range. And sensitivity can be measured in different ways which produces different results, so it's never a certain thing as a manufacturers spec.

 

[baronvonellis]

If you have seen the motor structures for the Persona drivers, they are pretty incredible. These are very heavy duty drivers that can take a ton of power. I had some Persona 5Fs for awhile and a 200watt per channel Anthem amp, they can get frighteningly loud without breaking a sweat. I am not sure that anything from Salk could keep up, but Salk has different performance goals. I think the Personas were engineered to handle a wider range of conditions. But then again, they are far more expensive.

Sensitivity is not a measure of dynamic range. It only tells you how loud something can get for a certain amount of power. You could have a driver that is more sensitive than another, yet if it can't take much power before tapping out, than a driver with lesser sensitivity but much greater power handling can easily have greater dynamic range. And sensitivity can be measured in different ways which produces different results, so it's never a certain thing as a manufacturers spec.

I see. What do you mean by dynamic range for a speaker? Dynamic range is in a recording before it gets to a speaker.

 

[shadyJ]

I see. What do you mean by dynamic range for a speaker? Dynamic range is in a recording before it gets to a speaker.

Dynamic range is how loud a speaker can get before it compresses and distorts the sound.

 

[2channel lover]

If you have seen the motor structures for the Persona drivers, they are pretty incredible. These are very heavy duty drivers that can take a ton of power. I had some Persona 5Fs for awhile and a 200watt per channel Anthem amp, they can get frighteningly loud without breaking a sweat. I am not sure that anything from Salk could keep up, but Salk has different performance goals. I think the Personas were engineered to handle a wider range of conditions. But then again, they are far more expensive.

There's the difference...I spent maybe an hr with the 5fs...so I will yield to your experience with them in general and especially on the SPL...I'm rarely ever listening above 80 dB, unless the wife's gone and I'm in that mood...mostly 60-70s. My demo was not much more than that.

It sounds like that's where the money was spent, great drivers and as I mentioned, they sound great, in that room size / spl realm that I live in, harder to hear the difference in money.

Question...have you heard the Legacy line? If so, your thoughts. I've wanted to hear the floorstander (model escapes me) but have not run across any dealers in my neck of the woods.