Harley's vs. Japanese bikes & Bose systems.

[gmichael]

Harley's vs. Japanese bikes & Bose systems.


Several times on this forum, as well as other forums, a Bose thread has split into a Harley thread. So I'm going to start this thread so that we can all stay on topic, I hope. I have owned both Harley's and Japanese bikes, so I know a little about both. Here goes.

Point number 1: Harley vs. Japanese bikes in performance.

Japanese bikes win this. Faster, handle better etc.

Point number 2: bikes longevity.

Japanese bikes again. I know that you will see many more older Harley's than older Japanese bikes on the road, but that's because of the people riding them. A Harley rider is more likely to want to take care of their "classic." But if both bikes were to get the same maintenance I'd put my money on the Honda.

Point 3: Life expectancy of the riders.

This is where the Harley make up ground. A lot of ground. When riding a Japanese bike down the road at say, 80 mph, the bikes wants to go faster. That's what it's made to do. If you don't keep a close eye on your speedo you could be well over 100 mph before you know it. The Harley? Do 60 mph and you feel like you are going fast. Do 80 and you're flying. Mostly due to all that same vibration that makes them need more maintenance.
This doesn't make the Japanese bike bad. It does what it does very well. Maybe too well for our roads. I switched to Harleys to keep myself alive.

Point 4: Made in the USA.

Doesn't mean what it used to when you see Harley's loaded in the back of Toyota pick-ups. Many of the parts are made somewhere else now anyhow.

Point 5 HD vs Bose: Understanding

Most Harley owners know that Harleys are not the fastest bike available. Some don't, but most do.
Most Bose owners think they are getting the best sounding system available. Some know better and are buying for the size, but most don't.

Thank you for your attention. I welcome comments and other points of view, but, please, no flames.

 

[flyv65]

I'm not sure it's fair to structure this as an "HD vs. Japanese" bike: for me, it becomes more of a "cruiser vs. other bikes", since all of the Big 4 manufacture cruisers, and HD supports (if not produces) a standard streetbike (the Buell), while Victory is an owner in KTM (they make some *really nice* standards and super motos). I also wouldn't count out Triumph, BMW, and Moto Guzzi, who also make both types of bikes. Aprillia and Ducati don't make a cruiser I can think of, so I didn't list them.

An additional note: I'm not sure that the nod goes to HD for life expectancy-I think an arguement can be made that cruiser riders are more likely to be injured in an accident based on the large number of inexperienced riders (many over 40) choosing cruisers, and the high incidence of alcohol related motorcycle accidents (drinking being so heavily connected to the cruiser lifestyle). By the way, alcohol has surpassed poor cornering skills as the leading cause of single vehicle amotocycle accidents this past year.

Bryan...and I wear a helmet, too...

 

[Takeereasy]

This is most likely going to get good.

I know Harley fans are rabid about their bikes, even when you put them up along-side other bikes that beat them in every category possible. (ok, looks is subjective and HD makes some decent looking bikes) That is brand loyalty for you. People being in love with their harley's is natural. After all, they've paid as much as a mid-sized sedan, and if you're up here north of the border they are also paying more to ride that bike than I do to drive my car when it comes to insurance. People need to justify large expenditures to themselves.

I see no problem comparing Bose and Harley except for the good point you already made gmichael. People that buy bose think they are getting the best money can buy in an attractive little package thanks to salesman BS and savy marketing. HD riders must know about the reliability issues, vibration issues, etc..., but they choose the product anyway. Most likely because they weren't hugged enough as children and now they have to prove to thier nagging wives and college buddies that there's still a buttkicker in there somewhere. (lol, that's my poke at HD riders, it's in fun, plus I want to see who gets ticked)

I will say this. HD has become an icon. They are the bad boy bike, they are the lifestyle bike, and they are an American company. That's not at all bad IMO. Just don't get me started on Buell. Bose is not an icon. They are the best example of what effective marketing can do for a company that I can think of.

I don't hate HD or Bose. Both are exceptional marketers that cater to niche groups. You can get more for less with other products imo, but if the respective riders or listeners are happy, then ignorance (be it self imposed or genuine) is bliss.

 

[gmichael]

I'm not sure it's fair to structure this as an "HD vs. Japanese" bike: for me, it becomes more of a "cruiser vs. other bikes", since all of the Big 4 manufacture cruisers, and HD supports (if not produces) a standard streetbike (the Buell), while Victory is an owner in KTM (they make some *really nice* standards and super motos). I also wouldn't count out Triumph, BMW, and Moto Guzzi, who also make both types of bikes. Aprillia and Ducati don't make a cruiser I can think of, so I didn't list them.

Yeah, you're right. I left a lot out. Sorry 'bout that. I love the BMW's with the antilock breaks.

An additional note: I'm not sure that the nod goes to HD for life expectancy-I think an arguement can be made that cruiser riders are more likely to be injured in an accident based on the large number of inexperienced riders (many over 40) choosing cruisers, and the high incidence of alcohol related motorcycle accidents (drinking being so heavily connected to the cruiser lifestyle). By the way, alcohol has surpassed poor cornering skills as the leading cause of single vehicle amotocycle accidents this past year.

Bryan...and I wear a helmet, too...

I must disagree with the inexperienced part. I rode Hondas, Kawasakis, Suzuki's and Yamahas for many decades before I bought my first Harley. I do see many very young riders on Japanese (racer type) bikes. Not all of them have more than a year or two of experience.

Drinking? You may have a point. But I still see more accidents in the papers for bikes that were going too fast than the DWI bikers.

I wear a helmet too. Full face in fact. Also like long pants & jackets.

What are you driving now?

 

[JoeE SP9]

If HD made a sport bike in the 500 to 750 CC size I would buy it. HD makes no sport bikes that I'm aware of. I have no desire to ride a cruiser. I'll keep riding my old restored 500CC Honda Interceptor it's 20+ years old and still capable of outrunning every HD out there. It feels like it's loafing at 100mph. If you don't wear a helmet you have on your head exactly what you think your brain is worth.

 

[mulester7]

I still see more accidents in the papers for bikes that were going too fast than the DWI bikers.

.....major point....speed is what kills, and crotch rockets are killing many of our young men....I believe US highways are the major culprits....concerning that curve ahead that you're going to try and take at 110 on your crotch rocket....how do you know a leaking sand truck or leaking gravel truck didn't go through that curve 5 minutes ahead of you?....you can have a chance with the back tire breaking loose and trying to come around on you, but that front tire going down is instant and decisive....you'll be sliding beside that crotch rocket on the pavement leaving the highway at what?, 70, 80, 90 mph?....then it's whatever you have next to the highway....trees, brick walls, mailboxes on steel posts, or deep ditches with big rocks at the bottom....crotch rockets should be outlawed on public streets and highways and limited to only closed circuit racing, imo.....

 

[gmichael]

This is most likely going to get good.

I know Harley fans are rabid about their bikes, even when you put them up along-side other bikes that beat them in every category possible. (ok, looks is subjective and HD makes some decent looking bikes) That is brand loyalty for you. People being in love with their harley's is natural. After all, they've paid as much as a mid-sized sedan, and if you're up here north of the border they are also paying more to ride that bike than I do to drive my car when it comes to insurance. People need to justify large expenditures to themselves.

This is one expenditure that I didn't mind. I got most of it back when I sold my Harley. None of my other bikes came even close to doing that for me.

I see no problem comparing Bose and Harley except for the good point you already made gmichael. People that buy bose think they are getting the best money can buy in an attractive little package thanks to salesman BS and savy marketing. HD riders must know about the reliability issues, vibration issues, etc..., but they choose the product anyway. Most likely because they weren't hugged enough as children and now they have to prove to thier nagging wives and college buddies that there's still a buttkicker in there somewhere. (lol, that's my poke at HD riders, it's in fun, plus I want to see who gets ticked)

No problem here either. I can even see why people would think that they are the same. I just wanted to point out where they are not.
I got many hugs as a child. Still do.

I will say this. HD has become an icon. They are the bad boy bike, they are the lifestyle bike, and they are an American company. That's not at all bad IMO. Just don't get me started on Buell. Bose is not an icon. They are the best example of what effective marketing can do for a company that I can think of.

Right, different.

I don't hate HD or Bose. Both are exceptional marketers that cater to niche groups. You can get more for less with other products imo, but if the respective riders or listeners are happy, then ignorance (be it self imposed or genuine) is bliss.

Me either. I have Bose in my car. Sounds very good to me. But the Bose cubes have many more limits. And the price is out there.

 

[Takeereasy]

I did forget about resale value. I think that HD bikes hold their value exceptionally well, especially when compared to their Japanese counter-parts. I used to appraise autos and heavy equipment and help dispose of the salvage. Harley parts and bikes always brought top dollar.

 

[masak_aer]

HD IMHO is a waste of money. Almost all friends and people i know who own HD don't know any better about bikes. I had been a Honda fan for the longest time until i gave up bikes and take on cars (guess...another Honda!). I once read in the news, about 15 people from Indonesia (that's half-way around the world) went to Wisconsin, bought the bikes, rode it to SF along with one car full of mechanics and flew back with all the bikes..pay taxes back for the bikes and ended up paying more than 40K a piece excluding the mechanics fee they rode together and other travel expenses.
Now, who in the right mind would do that unless they are loaded with money? or....they are just plain stupid rich people?
Japanese bikes are indeed built for durability...it is cheaper and faster as well.
I agree that HD is more to prestige for certain people..but B$se...isn't prestige..People who buy B$se for prestige are far worse than people who buy HD (hey, at least it's not made of paper)...

 

[flyv65]

Yeah, you're right. I left a lot out. Sorry 'bout that. I love the BMW's with the antilock breaks.

Yeah, I kinda have a soft spot for the BMW's too: they don't do anything normal, but they By-God get it done.

I must disagree with the inexperienced part. I rode Hondas, Kawasakis, Suzuki's and Yamahas for many decades before I bought my first Harley. I do see many very young riders on Japanese (racer type) bikes. Not all of them have more than a year or two of experience.

I'm a BRC instructor and it seems over the last few years we've had to add on more and more classes to meet demand of the students, most of which show up wearing HD jackets, t-shirts, and chaps. Information gathered during the intro portion of class tends to support the "born-again-biker" theme: most either in their mid 40's or over that, some previous riding experience ("borrowed a friend's bike at school back in the '70's for a while"), and the time and money to finally buy a bike. We're also seeing a huge jump in ladies signing up for the classes, but about a quarter of them are only there 'cuz their boyfriends/husbands asked them to take the class.

Now since most of the new riders seem to be riding cruisers, and since the cruiser lifestyle certainly supports a no helmet/heavy drinking approach to riding, I'd say the cards are stacked against an inexperienced, drunk helmetless rider getting through a tough corner on a bike that doesn't corner very well to start with.

Drinking? You may have a point. But I still see more accidents in the papers for bikes that were going too fast than the DWI bikers.

I wish I could remember how to access the NHSTA's database for this stuff: then again, the database is only as good as the information collected, so if the field personnel weren't consistent, your data could be skewed.

I wear a helmet too. Full face in fact. Also like long pants & jackets.

What are you driving now?

ATGATT (all the gear all the time) Good on ya for that. I'm riding a 2001 Honda Blackbird now (CBR1100XX), although I've had a pair of V65 Magnas, and I've put quite a few miles on a CB350/4 (from my dad), a BMW R1100S, a ZRX1100, and a 2001 Road King (Dad's current ride). I don't hate cruisers by the way; it's just that what they do they do at a pace only other cruisers can tolerate (I'd guess about 10 to 15 mph slower than other bikes). If I lived in one of the plains states I might even own one again.

Bryan....how 'bout yourself? What's sitting in your garage right now?

 

[flyv65]

I did forget about resale value. I think that HD bikes hold their value exceptionally well, especially when compared to their Japanese counter-parts. I used to appraise autos and heavy equipment and help dispose of the salvage. Harley parts and bikes always brought top dollar.

This could be due to the cost of gas, but bikes are going for considerably above bluebook here on the Front Range; I had a dealership *offer* me more than retail if I ever wanted to sell my bike this past spring.

Bryan....imagine when it's 70 years old (hee hee)...

 

[gmichael]

Right now my garage is empty, of anything. No cars, bikes, tools or anything.

Sold the Harley, to pay for the extras we are putting into the house we just built, but can't move into yet. Utility companies

Started riding at 9. I've made it to 46 so far. I doubt that I'll make it very long before the bug hits and I get another ride. Don't know what I'll get. Love'em all ya know.

 

[Mort Corey]

I worked as a line mechanic in the late 60's through the 70's for a while at a Honda dealership and later at a Harley dealer. From a mechanical standpoint, I preferred working on the older Harleys vs any of the Honda products as you could actually fix/repair things vs removing and replacing parts........'course I made more $$$ doing that so perhaps that's part of the bias.

Harley has come a long way in the quality control department since they were cut loose by AMF, but an 80+ year old engine design can't really be compared to some of the modern Japanese engineering feats......like a grandfather clock vs a Rolex

Mort

 

[caupina]

HD IMHO is a waste of money. Now, who in the right mind would do that unless they are loaded with money? or....they are just plain stupid rich people?
People who buy B$se for prestige are far worse than people who buy HD (hey, at least it's not made of paper)...

I do not concur with your comments here, you don't have to be "stupid" to spend your money on anything that you want if you like it. I know this is an audiophile forum, and I don't want to offend anybody, but the same could be said for a lot of folks who lurk around here, myself included. I don't feel stupid paying USD 50 for a SACD if that's what I think it's worth for whatever reasons(out of print, autographed issue, etc). The same applies for Bose buyers, I don't feel any worse for owning it, and even though I didn't pay top dollars for my speakers, it would have not made any difference if I had, because at the end of the day they fulfill my needs, so I'd be willing to pay whatever they charge for them.

 

[mulester7]

I doubt that I'll make it very long before the bug hits and I get another ride. Don't know what I'll get. Love'em all ya know.

.....agreed, GMichael, there's nothing like a motorcycle....especially when 3 or 4 of you cruise 50-60 miles to a great restaurant, then cruise together back home....I haven't been without one since age 12.....

 

[gmichael]

.....agreed, GMichael, there's nothing like a motorcycle....especially when 3 or 4 of you cruise 50-60 miles to a great restaurant, then cruise together back home....I haven't been without one since age 12.....

(steps up in front of small crowd, clears throat)

Hello, my name is Michael.... (long pause) ....and I am a motorcycle addict. (lowers head)
It's been 35 days sense my last ride. I used to ride every day. Sometimes many times in one day. This one time, in 1969, I went through 3 tanks of gas in one day. This on a bike that got close to 100 mpg. (lowers head again)
But I'm better now. I only think about riding 3 or 4 times a minute. (head comes back up and smiles)......

 

[flyv65]

I do not concur with your comments here, you don't have to be "stupid" to spend your money on anything that you want if you like it.

Well said Caupina: if you like it, want it, and can afford it, then it's worth it to you, even if to no-one else! Whether motorcycles, audio gear, bamboo fly rods, or anything else if you like it, stand up and say so-but recognize that the value you ascribe to the items in question may only make sense to you.

Bryan...prefer graphite rods myself-bamboo makes me too nervous to cast accurately...

 

[caupina]

My case is somewhat, similar. Been riding since 1991, first a Kawasaki '88 GPZ400R, then a '90 Yamaha FZR400RR, then a Honda '92 Honda CBR400RR, a '96 Honda CBR900RR and finally when I came to the States I got a '02 CBR954RR. I've put 25,000 miles on my bike (I bought it brand new). I've been to places here in SoCal that people who have been living here their entire lives didn't even know they existed. I've ridden close to 400-500 miles in one day in a motorcycle that's not know to be touring-oriented, but I've enjoyed every single mile. I could talk about bikes, MotoGP, riders, motorcycle gear brands for days. I've done some improvements with my bike and with my riding, I guess I've learned to ride a motorcycle really well on these 4 last years. I can't get enough of them. It's funny: one time a friend of mine came over to my apartment and he asked me to use the restroom. When he came out he says "No Playboy or Hustler or Penthouse, just bike magazines in that bathroom, it's so boring man!!!"

 

[flyv65]

SNIP
I used to ride every day. Sometimes many times in one day. This one time, in 1969, I went through 3 tanks of gas in one day. This on a bike that got close to 100 mpg. (lowers head again)

Have you ever done a distance ride or will you be following the Iron Butt Rally next year? Long distance riding is a passion that side-swiped me, but didn't knock me into the weeds (got my number back in '02 [IBA#9557]).

Bryan...quite a few have completed rides on the FL Harleys as well as the legions of BMWs and Gold wings...

 

[gmichael]

Have you ever done a distance ride or will you be following the Iron Butt Rally next year? Long distance riding is a passion that side-swiped me, but didn't knock me into the weeds (got my number back in '02 [IBA#9557]).

Bryan...quite a few have completed rides on the FL Harleys as well as the legions of BMWs and Gold wings...

Never in a group or rally. The most I ever put on a bike in one day was 750. That was on a 1976 Kz900. There were two other riders with me. Just went upstate NY. That was about as far as I'd ever be willing to go again. My back hurt for 3 days.