Good bookshelf speakers should not be any less than comparable tower speakers

[Mike Up]

I have read a lot of threads over the years, decades, of people saying that a bookshelf doesn't have the performance that a tower speaker has.

Well after having both, when a bookshelf speaker is setup with the appropriate subwoofer, the bookshelf 2.1 can actually out perform a tower speaker for music.

Most tower speakers have limited bass response and output. Also today, most tower speakers max out with 6.5" woofers while a few current designs go up to an 8" woofer.

Given if you pair a large bookshelf speaker (with 6.5" woofer) with a subwoofer, you are essentially doing what the tower speaker design does. I know with my Elacs, their tower speaker upgrade only adds an additional 2 6.5" woofers that are crossovered at 90 Hz. I actually crossover over at 80Hz to my sub so the towers are essentially what I'm doing but instead of a high powered 12" woofer I have, are using little 6.5" woofers, but 4 of them obviously.

As far as presentation, soundstage and imaging, my main system gives up nothing to the upper tower models.

Now with a smaller ~4" woofer in your bookshelf speakers, you are crossing over higher which can make it harder with some subwoofers as they have fast roll off at higher bass besides the loss of sensitivity in the bookshelf speakers making them need more power to create louder output. The same could be said of some bookshelf speakers with 5-1/4" woofers as they can have low sensitivity as well but should be able to crossover to a subwoofer without much difficulty.

 

[TLS Guy]

I have read a lot of threads over the years, decades, of people saying that a bookshelf doesn't have the performance that a tower speaker has.

Well after having both, when a bookshelf speaker is setup with the appropriate subwoofer, the bookshelf 2.1 can actually out perform a tower speaker for music.

Most tower speakers have limited bass response and output. Also today, most tower speakers max out with 6.5" woofers while a few current designs go up to an 8" woofer.

Given if you pair a large bookshelf speaker (with 6.5" woofer) with a subwoofer, you are essentially doing what the tower speaker design does. I know with my Elacs, their tower speaker upgrade only adds an additional 2 6.5" woofers that are crossovered at 90 Hz. I actually crossover over at 80Hz to my sub so the towers are essentially what I'm doing but instead of a high powered 12" woofer I have, are using little 6.5" woofers, but 4 of them obviously.

As far as presentation, soundstage and imaging, my main system gives up nothing to the upper tower models.

Now with a smaller ~4" woofer in your bookshelf speakers, you are crossing over higher which can make it harder with some subwoofers as they have fast roll off at higher bass besides the loss of sensitivity in the bookshelf speakers making them need more power to create louder output. The same could be said of some bookshelf speakers with 5-1/4" woofers as they can have low sensitivity as well but should be able to crossover to a subwoofer without much difficulty.

That is absolute BUNKUM. Subs cover a minute fraction of the audio spectrum and the least important. Just the last 2 octaves if you are lucky, from 20 to 80 Hz. The fundamentals of almost all instruments, except the pipe organ are above 80 Hz. The fundamental frequencies of most instruments are in the 100 to 400 Hz range and some above that. So that is where power needs to be concentrated. Almost all bookshelf speakers fall way short. You can turn up a sub way high, but that is NOT realistic or accurate reproduction. The fundamental frequencies are the dominant power bands.

 

[lovinthehd]

That is absolute BUNKUM. Subs cover a minute fraction of the audio spectrum and the least important. Just the last 2 octaves if you are lucky, from 20 to 80 Hz. The fundamentals of almost all instruments, except the pipe organ are above 80 Hz. The fundamental frequencies of most instruments are in the 100 to 400 Hz range and some above that. So that is where power needs to be concentrated. Almost all bookshelf speakers fall way short. You can turn up a sub way high, but that is NOT realistic or accurate reproduction. The fundamental frequencies are the dominant power bands.

You're adding bunkum, tho. Many fundamentals are below what you mention, or you have a strange definition of fundamental? Many speakers, even floor standers, do fall short but depends on spl levels, room size, etc.

The OP's claim that a random pair of bookshelves with a sub are superior to a good pair of floorstanders, meh. Depends on particulars of speakers, subs, room size, listening levels, etc.

 

[TLS Guy]

You're adding bunkum, tho. Many fundamentals are below what you mention, or you have a strange definition of fundamental? Many speakers, even floor standers, do fall short but depends on spl levels, room size, etc.

The OP's claim that a random pair of bookshelves with a sub are superior to a good pair of floorstanders, meh. Depends on particulars of speakers, subs, room size, listening levels, etc.

I posted about this the other day. You will see that few instruments have any of their fundamentals in sub range, and even then most of the fundamental frequencies of even those instruments that do reach sub range are above sub range. This is a common misapprehension among speaker designers and it should not be. It leads to serious errors in the design of a great many speakers, if not most. The power in the 80 to 500 Hz range is dominant, and way more than the acoustic power required in sub range. There are few if any midrange drivers that should be crossed below 400 Hz. Dynaudio used to have a cone mid with a 2.5" VC that could be, but that was a rare exception. I know these days there are quite a few that are, but this is just many of the examples of speaker design malpractice.

 

[Mike Up]

Ok, take for instance my Elac Debut 2.0 B6.2 which are a 2 way speaker with a 6-1/2" woofer and 1" tweeter crossed over at 2.2Khz.

The Flagship tower speaker of the Debut 2.0 series is the Debut 2.0 F6.2 which is a 6-1/2" driver and a 1" tweeter crossed over at 2.2Khz, then an additional two 6-1/2" woofers crossed over at 90hz. This is essentially the B6.2 bookshelf speaker with a dual 6-1/2" driver subwoofer added. LIke I said, I cross over to my subwoofer at 80Hz from my B6.2 bookshelf speakers.

Now it seems the argument is upper bass response where I have always read where soundstage and presentation was the big difference but didn't agree with.

With many other tower speakers, they use up to three 6.5" woofers where the bottom two woofers use a 2.5 way crossover that rolls them off at the lower frequencies as well.

Looking at a spinorama chart, there is no benefit in the higher bass in a tower speaker opposed to a bookshelf speaker that shows flat upper bass as well.

 

[lovinthehd]

I posted about this the other day. You will see that few instruments have any of their fundamentals in sub range, and even then most of the fundamental frequencies of even those instruments that do reach sub range are above sub range. This is a common misapprehension among speaker designers and it should not be. It leads to serious errors in the design of a great many speakers, if not most. The power in the 80 to 500 Hz range is dominant, and way more than the acoustic power required in sub range. There are few if any midrange drivers that should be crossed below 400 Hz. Dynaudio used to have a cone mid with a 2.5" VC that could be, but that was a rare exception. I know these days there are quite a few that are, but this is just many of the examples of speaker design malpractice.

Link doesn't work. I'm not saying there's a lot down low, but depends what you listen to as well, but why miss out on some of it otoh? Drivers that can handle significant bass, either low or mid bass, are desireable. Many speakers/rooms do benefit from subs, tho.

 

[lovinthehd]

Ok, take for instance my Elac Debut 2.0 B6.2 which are a 2 way speaker with a 6-1/2" woofer and 1" tweeter crossed over at 2.2Khz.

The Flagship tower speaker of the Debut 2.0 series is the Debut 2.0 F6.2 which is a 6-1/2" driver and a 1" tweeter crossed over at 2.2Khz, then an additional two 6-1/2" woofers crossed over at 90hz. This is essentially the B6.2 bookshelf speaker with a dual 6-1/2" driver subwoofer added. LIke I said, I cross over to my subwoofer at 80Hz from my B6.2 bookshelf speakers.

Now it seems the argument is upper bass response where I have always read where soundstage and presentation was the big difference but didn't agree with.

With many other tower speakers, they use up to three 6.5" woofers where the bottom two woofers use a 2.5 way crossover that rolls them off at the lower frequencies as well.

Looking at a spinorama chart, there is no benefit in the higher bass in a tower speaker opposed to a bookshelf speaker that shows flat upper bass as well.

I wouldn't consider a tower with 6.5" drivers myself (except as surrounds, which is how I use some of that size). However, have in my largish living room switched out sets of standmounts (with 6.5" drivers) for tower speakers (dual 8" drivers on mains, 6.5" on surrounds) and moved the bookshelves to a smaller room. Towers were a definite improvement over the stand-mounts. Never have seen an Elac IRL otoh, they do seem to get some good reports, tho. Advantage in upper bass with a tower might come out in a higher spl use....

 

[Mike Up]

I wouldn't consider a tower with 6.5" drivers myself (except as surrounds, which is how I use some of that size). However, have in my largish living room switched out sets of standmounts (with 6.5" drivers) for tower speakers (dual 8" drivers on mains, 6.5" on surrounds) and moved the bookshelves to a smaller room. Towers were a definite improvement over the stand-mounts. Never have seen an Elac IRL otoh, they do seem to get some good reports, tho. Advantage in upper bass with a tower might come out in a higher spl use....

There's only a handful of towers with 8" woofers as most have multiple 6.5" woofers or built in active subwoofers. As with SPL, Erin (Erin's Audio Corner)has measured up to 102 decibels at 1M and with the Bookshelf ELac B6.2 and the new Elac Tower DF63, the only real difference is below 80Hz as would be expected. Even then, they use different drivers so it's not completely comparable. However throughout through the range of 80Hz to 10Khz, the difference is 1db or less.

 

[lovinthehd]

There's only a handful of towers with 8" woofers as most have multiple 6.5" woofers or built in active subwoofers. As with SPL, Erin (Erin's Audio Corner)has measured up to 102 decibels at 1M and with the Bookshelf ELac B6.2 and the new Elac Tower DF63, the only real difference is below 80Hz as would be expected. Even then, they use different drivers so it's not completely comparable. However throughout through the range of 80Hz to 10Khz, the difference is 1db or less.

Yes, they have tended towards smaller/lighterweight towers over the years. Also reflects the room people have or want to provide for them....I'll have to check Erin's compression results...the only difference is a tick or two on the frequency range, nothing else?

 

[TLS Guy]

Link doesn't work. I'm not saying there's a lot down low, but depends what you listen to as well, but why miss out on some of it otoh? Drivers that can handle significant bass, either low or mid bass, are desireable. Many speakers/rooms do benefit from subs, tho.

Don't know why the link did not work. Any this was the essence of my post.

That was information the Gilbert Briggs hammered home back in the fifties in his books on speaker design. This is nothing new, but most speaker designers seem oblivious to this basic data. Understanding this is absolutely essential before attempting any speaker design.

The reds are the major power bands of each instrument listed. You can see the pipe organ is a particular issue and can, and often does, produce a lot of power across the whole acoustic spectrum. So very few speakers can reproduce them at concert levels without destruction, especially of their tweeters.

 

[lovinthehd]

I thought it might be a chart like that. Still, plenty of activity down low. High spl capability is not what all speakers are about, let alone used for otoh. Depends how much performance you demand. At lower volumes simply doesn't matter a lot in general, but some genres don't have the same sort of range as from the type of classical music you enjoy.

 

[TLS Guy]

There's only a handful of towers with 8" woofers as most have multiple 6.5" woofers or built in active subwoofers. As with SPL, Erin (Erin's Audio Corner)has measured up to 102 decibels at 1M and with the Bookshelf ELac B6.2 and the new Elac Tower DF63, the only real difference is below 80Hz as would be expected. Even then, they use different drivers so it's not completely comparable. However throughout through the range of 80Hz to 10Khz, the difference is 1db or less.

You have to take on board that the power spectrum of actual music is very different from test signals. If you tested speakers like you test amps, then very few, if any, would survive the test. In particular most speakers are awash in dynamic compression which is not revealed in most measuring techniques as testing would in many cases lead to speaker destruction.

 

[ski2xblack]

Erin's klippel results for the speakers the OP mentioned:
Towers-

ELAC Debut 3.0 DF63 Speaker Review

ELAC Debut 3.0 DF63 Review

www.erinsaudiocorner.com

Bookshelf-

ELAC Debut 2.0 B6.2 Speaker Review

ELAC Debut 2.0 B6.2 Review

www.erinsaudiocorner.com

The towers fare notably better in compression and multitone distortion tests, which seems to undermine the OP's claim. Subs won't change those limitations.

 

[Mike Up]

Erin's klippel results for the speakers the OP mentioned:
Towers-

ELAC Debut 3.0 DF63 Speaker Review

ELAC Debut 3.0 DF63 Review

www.erinsaudiocorner.com

Bookshelf-

ELAC Debut 2.0 B6.2 Speaker Review

ELAC Debut 2.0 B6.2 Review

www.erinsaudiocorner.com

The towers fare notably better in compression and multitone distortion tests, which seems to undermine the OP's claim. Subs won't change those limitations.

Under 80Hz as said. Using an active subwoofer under 80Hz, as said, makes the low bass output of the woofer a none issue, as said. Making a 2.1 bookshelf speaker/subwoofer an equal or better option, as said.

 

[ski2xblack]

Under 80Hz as said. Using an active subwoofer under 80Hz, as said, makes the low bass output of the woofer a none issue, as said. Making a 2.1 bookshelf speaker/subwoofer an equal or better option, as said.

Have a closer look at the compression and multitone measurements, at freq above sub range. The bookshelves compress and go nonlinear at much lower spls than the towers. Distortion is only 20db down at higher spls, while the towers are kept below -30db at the same high spls.

I'm not saying the results from sub/sat vs. towers are not ok for the right implementation, just that they are dynamic range limited, in the power band below 500hz or so. Trying to fill a large room involving greater distances will have one pushing directly against the limits of the sub/sat combo. Not "equal or better" objectively, but perhaps sufficient for smaller settings or nearfield use and yeah, less expensive than the towers.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I have read a lot of threads over the years, decades, of people saying that a bookshelf doesn't have the performance that a tower speaker has.

Well after having both, when a bookshelf speaker is setup with the appropriate subwoofer, the bookshelf 2.1 can actually out perform a tower speaker for music.

Most tower speakers have limited bass response and output. Also today, most tower speakers max out with 6.5" woofers while a few current designs go up to an 8" woofer.

Given if you pair a large bookshelf speaker (with 6.5" woofer) with a subwoofer, you are essentially doing what the tower speaker design does. I know with my Elacs, their tower speaker upgrade only adds an additional 2 6.5" woofers that are crossovered at 90 Hz. I actually crossover over at 80Hz to my sub so the towers are essentially what I'm doing but instead of a high powered 12" woofer I have, are using little 6.5" woofers, but 4 of them obviously.

As far as presentation, soundstage and imaging, my main system gives up nothing to the upper tower models.

Now with a smaller ~4" woofer in your bookshelf speakers, you are crossing over higher which can make it harder with some subwoofers as they have fast roll off at higher bass besides the loss of sensitivity in the bookshelf speakers making them need more power to create louder output. The same could be said of some bookshelf speakers with 5-1/4" woofers as they can have low sensitivity as well but should be able to crossover to a subwoofer without much difficulty.

It depends on the speakers, subs, and rooms.

If your room is only 10' x 10', then you don't need as much speakers/bass as a 20' x 20' room.

But if your room is 20' x 20', then I agree that MOST smaller/cheaper towers with 6.5" or even 8" woofers won't be able to compete with many dedicated subwoofers. But bigger towers with dual 10" and dual 12" woofers can produce a lot of bass in a 20x20 room.

So I agree that for MOST people with 20x20 rooms who don't want to spend a lot of money, bookshelf + subs are likely the best options. But for people with 10x10 rooms, towers like the RBH Impression-85 with an 8" side-subwoofer may do just as well as small bookshelf + subwoofer.

Now, of course, you could also do Towers + Subwoofers.

 

[TLS Guy]

Under 80Hz as said. Using an active subwoofer under 80Hz, as said, makes the low bass output of the woofer a none issue, as said. Making a 2.1 bookshelf speaker/subwoofer an equal or better option, as said.

That is absolutely false, but you can build the system anyway you want.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Using an active subwoofer under 80Hz makes the low bass output of the tower-woofer a none-issue, Making a 2.1 bookshelf speaker/subwoofer an equal or better option, as said.

That is absolutely false, but you can build the system anyway you want.

I'm not arguing or anything.

Do you think that letting subwoofers play under 80Hz (or 150Hz) and letting the bookshelf play above 80Hz (or 150Hz) is not as good as having towers play 20Hz-20kHz?

 

[TLS Guy]

I'm not arguing or anything.

Do you think that letting subwoofers play under 80Hz (or 150Hz) and letting the bookshelf play above 80Hz (or 150Hz) is not as good as having towers play 20Hz-20kHz?

Well you have to take in total system design. Generally it is best to set the sub crossover at least 50% above the F3 of the main and center speakers. However, if the mains are really capable I think it is best to play the mains full range and supplement with the sub or subs. However, there seem to be fewer and fewer speakers available where that is a good idea.

I did find an exception to this, and that was my inwall system. I moved the crossover up to 150 Hz as the multiple wall reflections were causing havoc, and just have the 10" sub driver reproduce below 150 Hz really cleaned up the total definition of the system.

In essence, I don't think there is a hard and fast rule on all this, as speakers have different capabilities and room situations are a huge wild card.