Good bookshelf speakers should not be any less than comparable tower speakers

[Mike Up]

I have read a lot of threads over the years, decades, of people saying that a bookshelf doesn't have the performance that a tower speaker has.

Well after having both, when a bookshelf speaker is setup with the appropriate subwoofer, the bookshelf 2.1 can actually out perform a tower speaker for music.

Most tower speakers have limited bass response and output. Also today, most tower speakers max out with 6.5" woofers while a few current designs go up to an 8" woofer.

Given if you pair a large bookshelf speaker (with 6.5" woofer) with a subwoofer, you are essentially doing what the tower speaker design does. I know with my Elacs, their tower speaker upgrade only adds an additional 2 6.5" woofers that are crossovered at 90 Hz. I actually crossover over at 80Hz to my sub so the towers are essentially what I'm doing but instead of a high powered 12" woofer I have, are using little 6.5" woofers, but 4 of them obviously.

As far as presentation, soundstage and imaging, my main system gives up nothing to the upper tower models.

Now with a smaller ~4" woofer in your bookshelf speakers, you are crossing over higher which can make it harder with some subwoofers as they have fast roll off at higher bass besides the loss of sensitivity in the bookshelf speakers making them need more power to create louder output. The same could be said of some bookshelf speakers with 5-1/4" woofers as they can have low sensitivity as well but should be able to crossover to a subwoofer without much difficulty.

 

[TLS Guy]

I have read a lot of threads over the years, decades, of people saying that a bookshelf doesn't have the performance that a tower speaker has.

Well after having both, when a bookshelf speaker is setup with the appropriate subwoofer, the bookshelf 2.1 can actually out perform a tower speaker for music.

Most tower speakers have limited bass response and output. Also today, most tower speakers max out with 6.5" woofers while a few current designs go up to an 8" woofer.

Given if you pair a large bookshelf speaker (with 6.5" woofer) with a subwoofer, you are essentially doing what the tower speaker design does. I know with my Elacs, their tower speaker upgrade only adds an additional 2 6.5" woofers that are crossovered at 90 Hz. I actually crossover over at 80Hz to my sub so the towers are essentially what I'm doing but instead of a high powered 12" woofer I have, are using little 6.5" woofers, but 4 of them obviously.

As far as presentation, soundstage and imaging, my main system gives up nothing to the upper tower models.

Now with a smaller ~4" woofer in your bookshelf speakers, you are crossing over higher which can make it harder with some subwoofers as they have fast roll off at higher bass besides the loss of sensitivity in the bookshelf speakers making them need more power to create louder output. The same could be said of some bookshelf speakers with 5-1/4" woofers as they can have low sensitivity as well but should be able to crossover to a subwoofer without much difficulty.

That is absolute BUNKUM. Subs cover a minute fraction of the audio spectrum and the least important. Just the last 2 octaves if you are lucky, from 20 to 80 Hz. The fundamentals of almost all instruments, except the pipe organ are above 80 Hz. The fundamental frequencies of most instruments are in the 100 to 400 Hz range and some above that. So that is where power needs to be concentrated. Almost all bookshelf speakers fall way short. You can turn up a sub way high, but that is NOT realistic or accurate reproduction. The fundamental frequencies are the dominant power bands.

 

[lovinthehd]

That is absolute BUNKUM. Subs cover a minute fraction of the audio spectrum and the least important. Just the last 2 octaves if you are lucky, from 20 to 80 Hz. The fundamentals of almost all instruments, except the pipe organ are above 80 Hz. The fundamental frequencies of most instruments are in the 100 to 400 Hz range and some above that. So that is where power needs to be concentrated. Almost all bookshelf speakers fall way short. You can turn up a sub way high, but that is NOT realistic or accurate reproduction. The fundamental frequencies are the dominant power bands.

You're adding bunkum, tho. Many fundamentals are below what you mention, or you have a strange definition of fundamental? Many speakers, even floor standers, do fall short but depends on spl levels, room size, etc.

The OP's claim that a random pair of bookshelves with a sub are superior to a good pair of floorstanders, meh. Depends on particulars of speakers, subs, room size, listening levels, etc.

 

[TLS Guy]

You're adding bunkum, tho. Many fundamentals are below what you mention, or you have a strange definition of fundamental? Many speakers, even floor standers, do fall short but depends on spl levels, room size, etc.

The OP's claim that a random pair of bookshelves with a sub are superior to a good pair of floorstanders, meh. Depends on particulars of speakers, subs, room size, listening levels, etc.

I posted about this the other day. You will see that few instruments have any of their fundamentals in sub range, and even then most of the fundamental frequencies of even those instruments that do reach sub range are above sub range. This is a common misapprehension among speaker designers and it should not be. It leads to serious errors in the design of a great many speakers, if not most. The power in the 80 to 500 Hz range is dominant, and way more than the acoustic power required in sub range. There are few if any midrange drivers that should be crossed below 400 Hz. Dynaudio used to have a cone mid with a 2.5" VC that could be, but that was a rare exception. I know these days there are quite a few that are, but this is just many of the examples of speaker design malpractice.

 

[Mike Up]

Ok, take for instance my Elac Debut 2.0 B6.2 which are a 2 way speaker with a 6-1/2" woofer and 1" tweeter crossed over at 2.2Khz.

The Flagship tower speaker of the Debut 2.0 series is the Debut 2.0 F6.2 which is a 6-1/2" driver and a 1" tweeter crossed over at 2.2Khz, then an additional two 6-1/2" woofers crossed over at 90hz. This is essentially the B6.2 bookshelf speaker with a dual 6-1/2" driver subwoofer added. LIke I said, I cross over to my subwoofer at 80Hz from my B6.2 bookshelf speakers.

Now it seems the argument is upper bass response where I have always read where soundstage and presentation was the big difference but didn't agree with.

With many other tower speakers, they use up to three 6.5" woofers where the bottom two woofers use a 2.5 way crossover that rolls them off at the lower frequencies as well.

Looking at a spinorama chart, there is no benefit in the higher bass in a tower speaker opposed to a bookshelf speaker that shows flat upper bass as well.

 

[lovinthehd]

I posted about this the other day. You will see that few instruments have any of their fundamentals in sub range, and even then most of the fundamental frequencies of even those instruments that do reach sub range are above sub range. This is a common misapprehension among speaker designers and it should not be. It leads to serious errors in the design of a great many speakers, if not most. The power in the 80 to 500 Hz range is dominant, and way more than the acoustic power required in sub range. There are few if any midrange drivers that should be crossed below 400 Hz. Dynaudio used to have a cone mid with a 2.5" VC that could be, but that was a rare exception. I know these days there are quite a few that are, but this is just many of the examples of speaker design malpractice.

Link doesn't work. I'm not saying there's a lot down low, but depends what you listen to as well, but why miss out on some of it otoh? Drivers that can handle significant bass, either low or mid bass, are desireable. Many speakers/rooms do benefit from subs, tho.

 

[lovinthehd]

Ok, take for instance my Elac Debut 2.0 B6.2 which are a 2 way speaker with a 6-1/2" woofer and 1" tweeter crossed over at 2.2Khz.

The Flagship tower speaker of the Debut 2.0 series is the Debut 2.0 F6.2 which is a 6-1/2" driver and a 1" tweeter crossed over at 2.2Khz, then an additional two 6-1/2" woofers crossed over at 90hz. This is essentially the B6.2 bookshelf speaker with a dual 6-1/2" driver subwoofer added. LIke I said, I cross over to my subwoofer at 80Hz from my B6.2 bookshelf speakers.

Now it seems the argument is upper bass response where I have always read where soundstage and presentation was the big difference but didn't agree with.

With many other tower speakers, they use up to three 6.5" woofers where the bottom two woofers use a 2.5 way crossover that rolls them off at the lower frequencies as well.

Looking at a spinorama chart, there is no benefit in the higher bass in a tower speaker opposed to a bookshelf speaker that shows flat upper bass as well.

I wouldn't consider a tower with 6.5" drivers myself (except as surrounds, which is how I use some of that size). However, have in my largish living room switched out sets of standmounts (with 6.5" drivers) for tower speakers (dual 8" drivers on mains, 6.5" on surrounds) and moved the bookshelves to a smaller room. Towers were a definite improvement over the stand-mounts. Never have seen an Elac IRL otoh, they do seem to get some good reports, tho. Advantage in upper bass with a tower might come out in a higher spl use....

 

[Mike Up]

I wouldn't consider a tower with 6.5" drivers myself (except as surrounds, which is how I use some of that size). However, have in my largish living room switched out sets of standmounts (with 6.5" drivers) for tower speakers (dual 8" drivers on mains, 6.5" on surrounds) and moved the bookshelves to a smaller room. Towers were a definite improvement over the stand-mounts. Never have seen an Elac IRL otoh, they do seem to get some good reports, tho. Advantage in upper bass with a tower might come out in a higher spl use....

There's only a handful of towers with 8" woofers as most have multiple 6.5" woofers or built in active subwoofers. As with SPL, Erin (Erin's Audio Corner)has measured up to 102 decibels at 1M and with the Bookshelf ELac B6.2 and the new Elac Tower DF63, the only real difference is below 80Hz as would be expected. Even then, they use different drivers so it's not completely comparable. However throughout through the range of 80Hz to 10Khz, the difference is 1db or less.

 

[lovinthehd]

There's only a handful of towers with 8" woofers as most have multiple 6.5" woofers or built in active subwoofers. As with SPL, Erin (Erin's Audio Corner)has measured up to 102 decibels at 1M and with the Bookshelf ELac B6.2 and the new Elac Tower DF63, the only real difference is below 80Hz as would be expected. Even then, they use different drivers so it's not completely comparable. However throughout through the range of 80Hz to 10Khz, the difference is 1db or less.

Yes, they have tended towards smaller/lighterweight towers over the years. Also reflects the room people have or want to provide for them....I'll have to check Erin's compression results...the only difference is a tick or two on the frequency range, nothing else?

 

[TLS Guy]

Link doesn't work. I'm not saying there's a lot down low, but depends what you listen to as well, but why miss out on some of it otoh? Drivers that can handle significant bass, either low or mid bass, are desireable. Many speakers/rooms do benefit from subs, tho.

Don't know why the link did not work. Any this was the essence of my post.

That was information the Gilbert Briggs hammered home back in the fifties in his books on speaker design. This is nothing new, but most speaker designers seem oblivious to this basic data. Understanding this is absolutely essential before attempting any speaker design.

The reds are the major power bands of each instrument listed. You can see the pipe organ is a particular issue and can, and often does, produce a lot of power across the whole acoustic spectrum. So very few speakers can reproduce them at concert levels without destruction, especially of their tweeters.

 

[lovinthehd]

I thought it might be a chart like that. Still, plenty of activity down low. High spl capability is not what all speakers are about, let alone used for otoh. Depends how much performance you demand. At lower volumes simply doesn't matter a lot in general, but some genres don't have the same sort of range as from the type of classical music you enjoy.

 

[TLS Guy]

There's only a handful of towers with 8" woofers as most have multiple 6.5" woofers or built in active subwoofers. As with SPL, Erin (Erin's Audio Corner)has measured up to 102 decibels at 1M and with the Bookshelf ELac B6.2 and the new Elac Tower DF63, the only real difference is below 80Hz as would be expected. Even then, they use different drivers so it's not completely comparable. However throughout through the range of 80Hz to 10Khz, the difference is 1db or less.

You have to take on board that the power spectrum of actual music is very different from test signals. If you tested speakers like you test amps, then very few, if any, would survive the test. In particular most speakers are awash in dynamic compression which is not revealed in most measuring techniques as testing would in many cases lead to speaker destruction.