Going to an AVR Preamp. Diehard 2chan guy

[Pogre]

@TLSGuy, Some very sweet reel to reels you have there.. The photo in the set-up is all that yours? On the left side above the RR, what is that? Vintage 2 channel amp? pre-amp?. one last question, Don't have any home brew, I do have a 12 pack of Millers, I'll be over next week with my 2 reels of music 'mix' of artist from the mid 70 to early 80s give them a spin. I promise I'll keep my hands off your reel-to-reels.

Click the smug mug link in his sig. @TLS Guy has one of the most impressive systems I've even heard of. Everything was custom built for hi fidelity, right down the the transmission line speakers he designed and built for his room. I still check out his gallery from time to time. Everything is so beautifully done.

 

[TechHDS]

Click the smug mug link in his sig. @TLS Guy has one of the most impressive systems I've even heard of. Everything was custom built for hi fidelity, right down the the transmission line speakers he designed and built for his room. I still check out his gallery from time to time. Everything is so beautifully done.

@"Pogre, I do believe I know who the go to on Genes website. I see he is highly knowledgeable (TLS).

 

[KEW]

I think you are about to make a common mistake, unless you want to listen at low volumes.

This idea arises from the myth that all the power is in the sub range. That is total rubbish. The need for power is above sub range and mainly from 80 Hz to 1500 Hz with plenty of need for resources out to 2.5 KHz and actually sometimes above that.

The range from 80 to 600 Hz is particularly power hungry, as for most speakers that is where BSC kicks in and doubles power demands and then some.

The idea that a 5 or 6 inch driver in a bookshelf speaker is going to give you realistic clean dynamics and spl. is totally ridiculous.

Hoping you can answer a couple of questions so I can get a better sense of this:

What would you consider the low frequency of a high quality bookshelf speaker (lets assume scanspeak woofer) to maintain competent dynamics and SPL. For example, would setting the crossover to 150Hz be a solution (aside from localization concerns)?

Also many modern floorstanders also have 6" woofers.
IOW, I realize that your mains are true full range speakers and have what in today's world would be called subwoofers built in to them. Are your comments more targeting the smaller drivers (which includes towers) or the form factor (tower vs bookshelf).

 

[TechHDS]

Many Tower speaker's are design' to achieve a wide range of frequencies, with the intent of achieving the bass output of a 12" to 15" woofer.

 

[PENG]

6" drivers absolutely can produce just as much bass as larger drivers if the speaker is designed/built for them. It's the total air movement that counts. If TLSGuy disagree, he needs to provide some proof.

 

[TLS Guy]

6" drivers absolutely can produce just as much bass as larger drivers if the speaker is designed/built for them. It's the total air movement that counts. If TLSGuy disagree, he needs to provide some proof.

A few will, but you need massive motor systems and huge xmax. They are very expensive. Dyaudio drivers are no longer on DIY market, but some Morel drivers are the best example. However having more than one driver really helps as the VC heating is the square of the current X the VC resistance.

I have to say I try to avoid and listening to speakers with only one driver and that includes mids and bass drivers. That is why I chose to 10" drivers rather than one 15" driver with an Fs of 20 Hz.

In any event it is pretty obvious that as diameter goes down then stroke volume has to go up. That is true of all pistonic motion including internal combustion engines.

For speakers this makes the suspension much more complex as xmax increases. That also leads to higher Q drivers on the whole.

If you are going to get a lot of db from a small driver with low Q it means horn loading. That means a large speaker enclosure. That is the classic Lowther design.

If you have been thinking about designing speakers as long as I have you find out that you can not get the pint into a quart pot. If you try you have problems. In speakers the penalties are lowered output, reduced bass output, increased distortion, more thermal dynamic compression and higher F3.

If you look at the F3 of bookshelf speakers you are going to find F3 of the vast majority north of 50 Hz and an awful lot north of 60 Hz. But the real deal is reduced power handling without high distortion and thermal compression in the 80 to 600 Hz range especially.

 

[TechHDS]

6" drivers absolutely can produce just as much bass as larger drivers if the speaker is designed/built for them. It's the total air movement that counts. If TLSGuy disagree, he needs to provide some proof.

Martin Logan, uses oversize drivers in their 40'and 60 towers ..just wonder if the driver's are stamped? Lightweight Steel, like my Polk Montor M70 ll's. But then again Plk Audi"Value' speaker's ....PENG ,
a nice pair of them Legacy speaker's would love. But then I would have sell off everything I own just to buy a pair. Stay in school young audio/video enthusiast.

 

[TechHDS]

A few will, but you need massive motor systems and huge xmax. They are very expensive. Dyaudio drivers are no longer on DIY market, but some Morel drivers are the best example. However having more than one driver really helps as the VC heating is the square of the current X the VC resistance.

I have to say I try to avoid and listening to speakers with only one driver and that includes mids and bass drivers. That is why I chose to 10" drivers rather than one 15" driver with an Fs of 20 Hz.

In any event it is pretty obvious that as diameter goes down then stroke volume has to go up. That is true of all pistonic motion including internal combustion engines.

For speakers this makes the suspension much more complex as xmax increases. That also leads to higher Q drivers on the whole.

If you are going to get a lot of db from a small driver with low Q it means horn loading. That means a large speaker enclosure. That is the classic Lowther design.

If you have been thinking about designing speakers as long as I have you find out that you can not get the pint into a quart pot. If you try you have problems. In speakers the penalties are lowered output, reduced bass output, increased distortion, more thermal dynamic compression and higher F3.

If you look at the F3 of bookshelf speakers you are going to find F3 of the vast majority north of 50 Hz and an awful lot north of 60 Hz. But the real deal is reduced power handling without high distortion and thermal compression in the 80 to 600 Hz range especially.

Are you sure your just a Critical Care Doctor?
I was sent by email, from Harman/Kardon when I made a call in about my AVR. It was a conversation between Harmon and some other engineer I can not for the life of me remember his name, about how 'load' affects the motor of the drivers over 'Mass' smaller vs larger. The discussion was if Damping Factor was significant enough a matter..Not trying to start a war of words with this post. But just in case I just put my bulletproof vest and hip boots on.

 

[TLS Guy]

I have posted this before. Here is the mastering screen of WaveLab.

Take a look at the function meter below the RME mix panel. You can see the power required across the frequency spectrum. One example is from the BBC, the others from one of my analog and one of my digital master recordings. My recordings are intensity stereo phase coherent recordings.

 

[PENG]

A few will, but you need massive motor systems and huge xmax. They are very expensive. Dyaudio drivers are no longer on DIY market, but some Morel drivers are the best example. However having more than one driver really helps as the VC heating is the square of the current X the VC resistance.

I have to say I try to avoid and listening to speakers with only one driver and that includes mids and bass drivers. That is why I chose to 10" drivers rather than one 15" driver with an Fs of 20 Hz.

In any event it is pretty obvious that as diameter goes down then stroke volume has to go up. That is true of all pistonic motion including internal combustion engines.

For speakers this makes the suspension much more complex as xmax increases. That also leads to higher Q drivers on the whole.

If you are going to get a lot of db from a small driver with low Q it means horn loading. That means a large speaker enclosure. That is the classic Lowther design.

If you have been thinking about designing speakers as long as I have you find out that you can not get the pint into a quart pot. If you try you have problems. In speakers the penalties are lowered output, reduced bass output, increased distortion, more thermal dynamic compression and higher F3.

If you look at the F3 of bookshelf speakers you are going to find F3 of the vast majority north of 50 Hz and an awful lot north of 60 Hz. But the real deal is reduced power handling without high distortion and thermal compression in the 80 to 600 Hz range especially.

I wouldn't want the 6" drivers to make up for their size by much longer stroke either, but I meant more of them, say 3 X 6" versus 1 X 10". There will be pros and cons for either configuration but again, if the designer is competent, either will be good. I am also not trying to compare bookshelf speakers to big floor standers, but just multiple smaller drivers versus one big one. Lastly, everything else being equal, I also prefer one bigger driver, but probably not bigger than 12 inches, for other reasons.

 

[TechHDS]

umm I had a pair of Sherwin Vegas with 18 inch woofers in them that we close to a hundred pounds each. Some of the deepest Bass, the mid bass was the richest I've ever ever heard. At reference levels -1 to 0 dbs as clean a sound that I have yet to reproduce in my set-ups todate. They would literally move to the wall. Man them where the good ole days. @ OP, We should all go give 'likes' to OP's system after all we been punching up his thread.

 

[TLS Guy]

I wouldn't want the 6" drivers to make up for their size by much longer stroke either, but I meant more of them, say 3 X 6" versus 1 X 10". There will be pros and cons for either configuration but again, if the designer is competent, either will be good. I am also not trying to compare bookshelf speakers to big floor standers, but just multiple smaller drivers versus one big one. Lastly, everything else being equal, I also prefer one bigger driver, but probably not bigger than 12 inches, for other reasons.

I understand, but when we get to multiple drivers we are no longer talking bookshelves.

Using multiple drivers is the best way to handle the power demands from 80 Hz to 2.5 KHz or so. What adding drivers does not do is lower fs and therefore f3. So if you have a 6" driver in a box and then make a box for four of them The box will be four times larger, but the F3 will be the same. It will not play lower than the single driver. However spl will be much increased.

The 10" driver is much more likely to have a lower Fs. So chances are the 10" driver will play lower than six 6" drivers and as loud.

The attraction of the small drivers is the narrow front and reduced baffle reflections. However as you narrow the front baffle, baffle step compensation starts at a higher frequency and so power demands on the drivers increases considerably. So the larger driver will have less power demands made on it than the smaller drivers.

Raymond Cooke in his wisdom when designing the classic B139 bass driver made it elliptical. So you could have a large driver in a narrow cabinet. Why on earth there are not a host of elliptical bass drivers is beyond me. It is an absolute no brainer.

Solving this problem with my speakers as you know resulted in some complex carpentry. However the cosmetic result turned out well I think.

The problem with speaker design is that there are so many interdependent variables. That is why I think there are so few really good ones.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

So maybe going with a full Integrated AVR would give me the same results? Just asking to see if I could get the same performance out of one on their all in one vs a AVR Pre.

The more I think about it, the more I think you only have 2 options - Pre-pro or Integrated Amp.

They’re both separates, which will please most people.

And then get speakers with big drivers (8” x 3 midranges and 12” x 2 Woofers).

 

[lovinthehd]

@ematthews and @AcuDefTechGuy You guys are getting confusing with terminology. What the hell is an Integrated AVR? What is an AVR Pre?
How does an Integrated Amp qualify as "separates"?

 

[TechHDS]

The more I think about it, the more I think you only have 2 options - Pre-pro or Integrated Amp.

They’re both separates, which will please most people.

And then get speakers with big drivers (8” x 3 midranges and 12” x 2 Woofers).

@Matthews @ADTG,. lolo....I have nothing more to add. If your post isn't the winner than am out...

 

[TechHDS]

@ematthews and @AcuDefTechGuy You guys are getting confusing with terminology. What the hell is an Integrated AVR? What is an AVR Pre?
How does an Integrated Amp qualify as "separates"?

@loveinthehd, Really don't think eMatthews, ADGT, are serious. But with that said, lol because I have come to know you take your hobby seriously. It is what I found very interesting in your post and threads. Would you like to join a few of us? Please and I say this with respect and admiration cause I have learned a thing or two and picked up some great tips from reading your posts and threads. I will quote your 2nd line in your post: 'What the hell is an integrated AVR? What is a AVR Pre?' again please don't take anything in my post out of context. Your 2nd line is golden! I am jumping out with that and going drop it in a few other site. .

 

[lovinthehd]

If they're just joking about terminology, my bad, went over my head or I skipped some posts developing that theme...

An avr is an integration of a radiotuner/internet source, multi-ch sources both audio and video, with a pre-amp section and power amp section for audio. An integrated amp is normally a two channel combination of a pre-amp of sorts for undefined number and type of inputs combined with an amp (not even sure I can find a full featured integrated amp that can handle the usual gamut of surround options). An AVR can be used as a pre-amp/pre-pro if it has pre-outs for the amps....

That's all I'm saying, keep the terminology consistent so it's clearer what kind of units you're talking about.

 

[TechHDS]

If they're just joking about terminology, my bad, went over my head or I skipped some posts developing that theme...

An avr is an integration of a radiotuner/internet source, multi-ch sources both audio and video, with a pre-amp section and power amp section for audio. An integrated amp is normally a two channel combination of a pre-amp of sorts for undefined number and type of inputs combined with an amp (not even sure I can find a full featured integrated amp that can handle the usual gamut of surround options). An AVR can be used as a pre-amp/pre-pro if it has pre-outs for the amps....

That's all I'm saying, keep the terminology consistent so it's clearer what kind of units you're talking about.

Your pretty much spot on, eMatthews thread got derailed some and he seems to be rolling with it, good guy in my book. Those analogies, of 'integrated AVR, AVR pre' thats used when someone with this hobby can not afford to do separates or just doesn't want to spend the money and use there Avr, 'pre-amp' and add a amp..so they say I will use my AVR like a pre-pro, you would be surprise how many really don't know much about this hobby that most of us take for granted. My setup is modest at best and when people come over they look at it first and one of the first question is man, that must have cost a lot of money like what 10 grand? I just smile and chuckle a little. Could you imagine if someone with very little to no experience with this hobby looked upon a really high-end system? They would think it was from aliens. Try explaining the technical side to someone like that they look at you like you just lot your mind or something. Meaning they could care less and walk off. I can just about read their mind just by reading the look on their face, like he spent 3,000 on that? They go, My used Car cost that much and they walk off could care less.

 

[<eargiant]

Using multiple drivers is the best way to handle the power demands from 80 Hz to 2.5 KHz or so. What adding drivers does not do is lower fs and therefore f3. So if you have a 6" driver in a box and then make a box for four of them The box will be four times larger, but the F3 will be the same. It will not play lower than the single driver. However spl will be much increased.

The 10" driver is much more likely to have a lower Fs. So chances are the 10" driver will play lower than six 6" drivers and as loud.

What if you add a 15" Passive Radiator to a large box with the four 6.5" drivers?

 

[TechHDS]

I wouldn't think so, using a Fake speaker never was my cup of tea. Never liked that idea some Subs use a ' passive radiator' but in a sub use of one I believe it's used to cut down on "cuffing" port noise mostly. But far be it for me to say.