Gene got the Ban Hammer!

jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
In other words, all the measurements in the world are not enough to convince most speaker shoppers of anything. And that's before we get into the VERY thorny issue of whether measurements taken by reviewers are accurate enough. Because when you add up the variables (unit to unit variation, the lack of an anechoic chamber, the likely "less than perfect" accuracy of the mic used to measure) who know how much error creeps in.
ASR is doing a decent job of measurements. It's, imo, certainly driving purchase decisions. To find out how much error creeps in all one need to do is take the published measurement protocol and repeat those on their own.

Where this has been done and discrepancy arises a great conversation usually comes out of it at the very least.

I think the real issue is the quality of the reviewer.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
ASR is doing a decent job of measurements. It's, imo, certainly driving purchase decisions. To find out how much error creeps in all one need to do is take the published measurement protocol and repeat those on their own.

Where this has been done and discrepancy arises a great conversation usually comes out of it at the very least.

I think the real issue is the quality of the reviewer.
I've read Amir's postings for a long time so taking him with a grain of salt comes naturally.....and the testing he posts definitely has limits to consider, even sometimes when he's done it and his familiarity with what can alter conditions with his gear/methods. Better than a lot out there, tho.
 
Mark Henninger

Mark Henninger

Enthusiast
ASR is doing a decent job of measurements. It's, imo, certainly driving purchase decisions. To find out how much error creeps in all one need to do is take the published measurement protocol and repeat those on their own.

Where this has been done and discrepancy arises a great conversation usually comes out of it at the very least.

I think the real issue is the quality of the reviewer.
You know what I've found drives many speaker purchase decisions? Big discounts/deals/sales. Sure, there are shoppers who zero in on one speaker or another, based on thorough research, which may include visiting stores or getting loaners to compare at home.

But there are many others who respond primarily to "Sale: 50% off ____ speakers" and as long as there is a subjective review or two out there to support that decision, that's all they need to commit.

The least pleasant part of taking measurements is that they typically reveal exaggeration on behalf of specifications published by the manufacturer. Two of the most common specs that frequently don't jibe with measured reality are among the most basic: Frequency response and sensitivity ratings. That can lead to some uncomfortable discussions with the manufacturer.
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
You know what I've found drives many speaker purchase decisions? Big discounts/deals/sales. Sure, there are shoppers who zero in on one speaker or another, based on thorough research, which may include visiting stores or getting loaners to compare at home.

But there are many others who respond primarily to "Sale: 50% off ____ speakers" and as long as there is a subjective review or two out there to support that decision, that's all they need to commit.

The least pleasant part of taking measurements is that they typically reveal exaggeration on behalf of specifications published by the manufacturer. Two of the most common specs that frequently don't jibe with measured reality are among the most basic: Frequency response and sensitivity ratings. That can lead to some uncomfortable discussions with the manufacturer.
I've a coworker, I kid you not, purchases food based on the calorie count. His diet is for poop. I'm not here at AH and other sites to help an idiot purchase their way into some white van speakers.

I've helped enough people with purchases that I've lost count. If we have zeroed in on what is going to work for them and the next speaker/component up the rung comes down into their budget sure we are going to go for it.

Everyone has a budget. Data can help at least spend it as wisely as possible.

Least pleasant for the manufacturer. Remember the re-branded Oppo BR Player? It's most pleasant for the informed consumer.
 
Mark Henninger

Mark Henninger

Enthusiast
I've a coworker, I kid you not, purchases food based on the calorie count. His diet is for poop. I'm not here at AH and other sites to help an idiot purchase their way into some white van speakers.

I've helped enough people with purchases that I've lost count. If we have zeroed in on what is going to work for them and the next speaker/component up the rung comes down into their budget sure we are going to go for it.

Everyone has a budget. Data can help at least spend it as wisely as possible.

Least pleasant for the manufacturer. Remember the re-branded Oppo BR Player? It's most pleasant for the informed consumer.
Yes, lol, the Lexicon will live in infamy. Of course, the only "measuring" anyone needed to do with that one is to figure out what size screwdriver was needed to pop the lid off. One look at the internals and the gig was up.
 
Mark Henninger

Mark Henninger

Enthusiast
Perhaps, the best discussion on this topic.
Andrew is great, super knowledgeable and talented, and he's been very helpful over the years. I've owned speakers he designed over the decades, before I ever knew who he was, as well as Pioneer and ELAC after we became industry acquaintances thanks to audio shows.

Over lunch at a show, Andrew once shared with me that when the Beats brand was being thought up, he was approached to be the designer for their early models. He declined, the rest is ignominious history... headphones don;t need to sound good to sell well. They need to be marketed. It's a story involving Silicon Valley, Wall Street, executives bent on market domination, and a turn of events that resulting in Dr. Dre becoming a billionaire and Apple getting into the headphones game.

I guess the counterpoint to the notion that measurements won't tell you if you like how music sounds is Sean Olive (Senior Research Fellow at Harman, for those who are not familiar), who says that measurements in fact do closely correlate to whether or not someone will like the sound of a speaker.

My experience (thus far) is that personal taste 100% creates a wide spectrum of responses to how speakers sound. Headphones, too. Visit a few dozen rooms at an audio show and discuss how you thought the systems sounded with other attendees and it becomes clear that the adage "preference beats reference" is largely axiomatic.
 
killdozzer

killdozzer

Audioholic Samurai
You know what I've found drives many speaker purchase decisions? Big discounts/deals/sales. Sure, there are shoppers who zero in on one speaker or another, based on thorough research, which may include visiting stores or getting loaners to compare at home.
Thing is, measurements were never even meant to be the big sales force. That's not the point they are defended on. At least I never saw such claims. Other than professionals who need them, they'd be most useful to salesmen, not end user. If someone comes to your shop knowing little about technology and acoustics but with an impression of sound that moved him/her, it would be such a beautiful thing to have salesmen understand in which direction to go with recommendations.

I never use knowledge or precise information to sell products unless a customer makes it clear he is knowledgeable and wants to be treated that way.

Still, I'd never say I don't need the knowledge I have. I have such detailed insight into the entire production technology and such minute details on chemistry and processes in the products I'm selling I could bore devil to death, but I never do. On the other hand, people are amazed with my recommendations and see it as magic ;) (this is where the ol' if you don't understand it, it always looks like magic comes into play), they often don't buy when I'm not there and say they'll come back into my shift.

Of course I use knowledge, what else? there's no magic, I just don't tell them all the whys, I ask them to trust me and they quickly start.
 
Mark Henninger

Mark Henninger

Enthusiast
Thing is, measurements were never even meant to be the big sales force. That's not the point they are defended on. At least I never saw such claims. Other than professionals who need them, they'd be most useful to salesmen, not end user.
Oh, for sure. If it were the case that accurate specs sold mainstream consumers on a product, Bose and Beats would mention frequency response in their specs. They do not. Same with Sonos.
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
Oh, for sure. If it were the case that accurate specs sold mainstream consumers on a product, Bose and Beats would mention frequency response in their specs. They do not. Same with Sonos.
All I know is that an audio shop near me, in the 90's, if they needed to move a specific set of speakers they would increase the amplification for them and let people hit the speaker selector to their hearts content. This was according to bench tech that worked there.
 
Mark Henninger

Mark Henninger

Enthusiast
All I know is that an audio shop near me, in the 90's, if they needed to move a specific set of speakers they would increase the amplification for them and let people hit the speaker selector to their hearts content. This was according to bench tech that worked there.
Yes, that's one of the oldest tricks in the book and well established. Evidently the same shenanigans occur at audio shows, like that case with Dr. Mark Waldrep and Nordost (which I see you commented on back in 2016).
 
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