FTC to Kill Amplifier Rule: Help us Protect it by Feb 16th, 2021!

[highfigh]

Apparently the FTC hasn't been doing their job I have seen with my own eyes audio manufactures listing on their product boxes 1150 x 5 watts total power that was at a Bestbuy store I was in about a year ago. Both Sony and Onkyo AVR's. Now that may fall under false advertisement, with the internet we have now buying online instead of buying from a brick and mortar store an implied warranty crossing State lines can become a consumers financial nightmare. One would have to file a lawsuit in the State that the product was shipped from plus against the manufacturer and where are they? overseas. I never by from say Bestbuy store they only have a 14 day return window. After that you deal with the manufactures for your implied warranty. I have gotten burnt many times with audio and video products. Just recently by Vizio so yeah has the FTC been doing their job? I would say not.

The FTC doesn't have anything to do with product failure- that's on the manufacturer and parts suppliers.

 

[highfigh]

Except that once alcohol prohibition ended, the violence ended also. Before the drug war, there was much less violence in that market as well. The violence is inherently tied to the prohibition.

It would be best to avoid the potential for violence (as well as extortion).

White van speakers are black market, and so exist regardless of regulation.

The FTC commish has stated that it is not likely that the regulations would be updated in a timely fashion. A single set of rules don't apply for all cases, anyway. Why not allow different people, applications, and markets decide what standards work best for them? Why does the assumption persist that there can only be one set of rules for ~330 million people in many different states?


Yeah, that was just because somebody was praising the drug war. Related, but not the same.

The violence over alcohol ended and the Mob kept rolling, getting into casinos, heroin, kept running prostitution, numbers rackets, etc. You think the Mafia stopped killing? Have you been living under a rock?

 

[jbiz42]

The violence over alcohol ended and the Mob kept rolling, getting into casinos, heroin, kept running prostitution, numbers rackets, etc. You think the Mafia stopped killing? Have you been living under a rock?

Have you thought about trying a real argument? Gambling is illegal. Prostitution is illegal. Laws don't stop it, just makes it a dangerous black market.

 

[jbiz42]

Standards organizations like IEEE, SAE are voluntary don't have the authority to require compliance, that's the role of regulations and the govt. Even NIST the premier government standards organization cannot enforce standards. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Institute_of_Standards_and_Technology

So do you think the standards organizations shouldn't exist? What's the point it you can't use force?

 

[highfigh]

Have you thought about trying a real argument? Gambling is illegal. Prostitution is illegal. Laws don't stop it, just makes it a dangerous black market.

You're really not trying. You wrote that after Prohibition, the killing stopped and that's bullshyte. Killing is illegal, too- what's your point?

 

[jbiz42]

The FTC doesn't have anything to do with product failure- that's on the manufacturer and parts suppliers.

That doesn't protect the consumer! Maybe they should take over manufacturing, right?

 

[jbiz42]

Agreed but our friend cant make that connection. It leads to violence.

Guess what, you misread again. That's the whole point; enforcement means extortion, threats, aggression. You can't have it both ways. They can force compliance (except on the black market), but then you have a one-size-fits all requirement, less innovation, etc. The FTC admitted that. And you apparently can't connect the dots to why voluntary standards organizations exist.

 

[3db]

Guess what, you misread again. That's the whole point; enforcement means extortion, threats, aggression. You can't have it both ways. They can force compliance (except on the black market), but then you have a one-size-fits all requirement, less innovation, etc. The FTC admitted that. And you apparently can't connect the dots to why voluntary standards organizations exist.

Now you want to get rid of law enforcement? Seriously, volunteer organizations have no legal teeth in which to enforce these standards. Thats why they wont work. Now if you give them legal teeth, it may work but then you'll end up with something similar to the FTC filled with agression. You are hopelessly stuck in a catch 22 situation. You can't have it both ways.

 

[lovinthehd]

Some consumer anger in this thread. Such a first world problem. Fact is there will be little enforcement of standards for our tiny little hobby.

 

[D Murphy]

I got a little dizzy reading through this thread. I think things got a bit more cosmic than necessary. The bottom line is that, thanks to Gene's initiative and a thread on another forum, The FTC now has over 1100 comments on a Rule that has received maybe 5 comments over the past 35 years. I submitted a comment aimed at the issues raised by Commissioner Wilson's negative view of FTC presence in amplifier power ratings, and I tried to illustrate why stricter enforcement is called for. https://www.regulations.gov/comment/FTC-2020-0087-0525 Keep in mind that the FTC Rule does not prohibit power claims based on different testing methods. It just tries to achieve consistency in the most prominent claim.

 

[lovinthehd]

I got a little dizzy reading through this thread. I think things got a bit more cosmic than necessary. The bottom line is that, thanks to Gene's initiative and a thread on another forum, The FTC now has over 1100 comments on a Rule that has received maybe 5 comments over the past 35 years. I submitted a comment aimed at the issues raised by Commissioner Wilson's negative view of FTC presence in amplifier power ratings, and I tried to illustrate why stricter enforcement is called for. https://www.regulations.gov/comment/FTC-2020-0087-0525 Keep in mind that the FTC Rule does not prohibit power claims based on different testing methods. It just tries to achieve consistency in the most prominent claim.

Thanks for your efforts in this arena no matter what happens but wow such an increase, who woulda thunk with the internet ?

 

[highfigh]

That doesn't protect the consumer! Maybe they should take over manufacturing, right?

If a manufacturer makes unreliable products, the problem takes care of itself because their reputation will take a dump and people will stop buying their crap. Stop making ridiculous arguments.

 

[highfigh]

Some consumer anger in this thread. Such a first world problem. Fact is there will be little enforcement of standards for our tiny little hobby.

Little enforcement for performance, but there is some requirement for safety WRT grounding, not bursting into flames by limiting current, etc.

 

[cpp]

I found only one Onkyo, that the FTC filed against that was back in 96

WHich actually means nobody else complained and contacted the FTC. People have to be active to get results if something is borderline fraud.

 

[M Code]

Back in 1979, Marantz filed a lawsuit against Pioneer for their SX-1980 inflated published output specifications. Pioneer claimed a power output of 270W x 2 into 8 Ohms but unfortunately it only could put out 145W x 2 into 8 Ohms.... Basic shortcoming was that Pioneer had inadequate power supply and heat sinking area and could not meet the 1/3 power for 1 hour preconditioning requirement and would thermally shut down, before measuring the unit. However the Marantz super receiver 2600 would meet the FTC requirement of 300W x 2 into 8 Ohms and 400W x 2 into 4 ohms, at the time Pioneer had NO published 4 Ohm specs. In fact very few products of any receiver brand had a 4 Ohm spec which was even harder to meet than the 8 Ohm spec. Final outcome was the FTC issued a Cease & Desist order to Pioneer who then discontinued the product...

Regarding power output specifications now, the issue is the market is now global not just North America... So specs like the BS DIN power are disclosed on the brand's website...

Just my $0.02...

 

[PENG]

Regarding power output specifications now, the issue is the market is now global not just North America... So specs like the BS DIN power are disclosed on the brand's website...

Just my $0.02...

As an engineer, I have to say the main issue with power output specs include at least the following:

1) "power" is not the best term to use for audio amplifiers designed to drive loudspeakers to begin with.
2) Loudspeakers need voltage and current to produce sound but as we all know they are not resistors so the "power" they consumed is not the same as the "power" an amplifier consumed, or drawn from the outlet/electricity grid.
3) Even that 66 lbs monster super receiver Marantz 2600 would only be 400W into a 4 Ohm resistor.
4) Stopping using the vague, misleading, confusing term "continuous", instead specify the duration in seconds, minutes and hour that the ratings are based on at say room temperature (or something like 25 deg C) assuming the unit is ventilated according the the manufacturer's recommendations.
Again using the Marantz super receiver as example, it passed the 1/3 full output, 1 hour preconditioning test but I am almost 100% sure it will not pass a full power 1 hour test so the "continuous" rating is misleading at best.

The way amplifier outputs and loudspeaker's power ratings of all sorts, such as "recommended 25-100 W, power handling 400 W, maximum power 400 W etc., kind of rating are not very useful (useful to an extent) for the consumer to size the amplifier they can afford. I think Dennis Murphy would agree with me on this.

I think at some point, people have to not stop assuming that most consumers are not technical enough to tell the difference, and start doing something better, more meaningful, and eventually useful for most consumers.

Examples:

Instead using "power", start specify in terms of output voltage and current such as:

Maximum output voltage............50 Vrms, 15 A for 30 seconds, 5 A for 1 hour (Dyn: 25 A, 20 ms), 2 Ch driven
Maximum output current........... .30 Vrms, 18 A for 30 seconds, 5.5 A for 1 hour

That way, we don't have to worry much about the phase angle and impedance. It also avoided the incorrect term W rms, aka rms power. In the beginning, people is going to want to relate such specs to power, but they can be educated to get a rough reference number by using the power formula in the simplified form, that is:
Power (W) = Voltage X Current, and that would be the so called power W) into a resistor load.

It can be, and likely should be, stated in more detail, but this is just my momentary brain spark right at this moment.

 

[highfigh]

Back in 1979, Marantz filed a lawsuit against Pioneer for their SX-1980 inflated published output specifications. Pioneer claimed a power output of 270W x 2 into 8 Ohms but unfortunately it only could put out 145W x 2 into 8 Ohms.... Basic shortcoming was that Pioneer had inadequate power supply and heat sinking area and could not meet the 1/3 power for 1 hour preconditioning requirement and would thermally shut down, before measuring the unit. However the Marantz super receiver 2600 would meet the FTC requirement of 300W x 2 into 8 Ohms and 400W x 2 into 4 ohms, at the time Pioneer had NO published 4 Ohm specs. In fact very few products of any receiver brand had a 4 Ohm spec which was even harder to meet than the 8 Ohm spec. Final outcome was the FTC issued a Cease & Desist order to Pioneer who then discontinued the product...

Regarding power output specifications now, the issue is the market is now global not just North America... So specs like the BS DIN power are disclosed on the brand's website...

Just my $0.02...

Considering the weight of that stupid thing, I don't know why it couldn't have been designed to perform better. IIRC, it was 94 pounds. Yeah, we really enjoyed getting our Pioneer shipments. Yeah. Great.

 

[highfigh]

As an engineer, I have to say the main issue with power output specs include at least the following:

1) "power" is not the best term to use for audio amplifiers designed to drive loudspeakers to begin with.
2) Loudspeakers need voltage and current to produce sound but as we all know they are not resistors so the "power" they consumed is not the same as the "power" an amplifier consumed, or drawn from the outlet/electricity grid.
3) Even that 66 lbs monster super receiver Marantz 2600 would only be 400W into a 4 Ohm resistor.
4) Stopping using the vague, misleading, confusing term "continuous", instead specify the duration in seconds, minutes and hour that the ratings are based on at say room temperature (or something like 25 deg C) assuming the unit is ventilated according the the manufacturer's recommendations.
Again using the Marantz super receiver as example, it passed the 1/3 full output, 1 hour preconditioning test but I am almost 100% sure it will not pass a full power 1 hour test so the "continuous" rating is misleading at best.

The way amplifier outputs and loudspeaker's power ratings of all sorts, such as "recommended 25-100 W, power handling 400 W, maximum power 400 W etc., kind of rating are not very useful (useful to an extent) for the consumer to size the amplifier they can afford. I think Dennis Murphy would agree with me on this.

I think at some point, people have to not stop assuming that most consumers are not technical enough to tell the difference, and start doing something better, more meaningful, and eventually useful for most consumers.

Examples:

Instead using "power", start specify in terms of output voltage and current such as:

Maximum output voltage............50 Vrms, 15 A for 30 seconds, 5 A for 1 hour (Dyn: 25 A, 20 ms), 2 Ch driven
Maximum output current........... .30 Vrms, 18 A for 30 seconds, 5.5 A for 1 hour

That way, we don't have to worry much about the phase angle and impedance. It also avoided the incorrect term W rms, aka rms power. In the beginning, people is going to want to relate such specs to power, but they can be educated to get a rough reference number by using the power formula in the simplified form, that is:
Power (W) = Voltage X Current, and that would be the so called power W) into a resistor load.

It can be, and likely should be, stated in more detail, but this is just my momentary brain spark right at this moment.

The input for speaker sensitivity is already expressed as 2.83V@8 Ohms as being 1 Watt, but not all correct it when the load is 4 Ohms.

They need to show the specs in a way that the average child will understand.

Maybe we could draft a simplified explanation of the specs for people who don't understand, in a way that clears the fog for them. Show what's important or not and why.

 

[Verdinut]

Here is Audio Precision White Paper on "How to Write (and Read) Audio Specs:

https://www.ap.com/download/how-to-write-and-read-audio-specifications-2/?wpdmdl=5939&ind=SG93X3RvX3dyaXRlX2FuZF9yZWFkX2F1ZGlvX3NwZWNzLnBkZg

Not that easy to clearly understand by the average person.

 

[jbiz42]

It most certainly was. You asked what would happen if someone ignored the standard, I said fines, then you moved the post to "what if they don't pay the fine?". I say more fines and/or suspending someone's license to do business. There's no violence in my answers but you keep reaching for it.

I think you insinuating violence is inevitable as it relates to this case is hyperbolic at best. Violence used to enforce regulations like this might be used a last resort in an extreme hypothetical and unrealistic scenario. Do you have some examples of violence being used to enforce amplifier regulations? Seems to me you're setting up a strawman...

No, the goalpost was clear - violence. More fines? And that's the end of it.

If a manufacturer makes unreliable products, the problem takes care of itself because their reputation will take a dump and people will stop buying their crap. Stop making ridiculous arguments.

Wow, the cognitive dissonance is deafening. So why would that not be the case either way (coercive standards vs. free-market standards)?

Why wouldn't the reputation apply to standards bodies as well? Products marketing that they meet standards from an organization of ill repute will lose out as well.

You can't have it both ways.