Floorstanding speakers $3,500 - 4,500 ADVICE PLEASE

[GranteedEV]

I believe that price is for the Cirrus - the Arcus should cost more,
they have some expensive parts.

That makes sense. The cirrus itself probably has over $1200 in drivers but the arcus is physically larger and the beyma TPL-150 tweeter is very pricy. The speaker would also be rated closer to 500W power handling IMO.

 

[83benz240]

I did make a mistake. That price $3,700 I listed is for the Vapor Cirrus. I search for but don't see the Vapor Arcus or the:

"elemental design cinema 12 with DE250 tweeter upgrade with matte upgrade"

Does anyone know where to find these two speakers on the internet?

 

[Nuance AH]

I really liked the review of the Salk HT2 - TL. How would they handle the power from a XPA-2 amp? Is there a way to prevent or know before a speaker is about to destruct when turned up loud?

They will handle the power just fine; the important question is will the handle the volume levels you want to listen at? I have extensive experience with the HT2-TL's, and the listening room that they are in is quite large. We've cranked them pretty darn loud and they just keep singing without breaking a sweat. However, I have no idea how loud you'll be cranking your speakers for those house parties. Do you have any idea how loud they'll be playing? The reason most of us are recommending high efficiency speakers is based on your comment about playing them loud for parties; no one ever asked you to clarify what "loud" is, though, so please specify. Based on your estimate and room size we'll be able to better recommend speakers for you.

Here is the quick list I put together with them in order FOR NOW:

Salk HT2-TL $4,100 100-250
JTR Quintuple 8 $3,000 Up to 1600 Watts
Vapor Audio Arcus $3,700 30-250 watts - solid state
JBL LSR6332 $3,000 200 W continuous average; 800 W peak
Audiokinesis Jazz $4,500 5-150 watts (unclipped peaks up to 300 watts acceptable)
Paradigm Reference S6 $5,800 15-400 watts Suitable Amp Power 200 Max Power
GedLee Abbey $6,000


XPA-2 Amp 500 watts RMS @ 4 ohm (0.1% THD)

300 watts RMS @ 8 ohm (0.1% THD)

In my opinion the Salk's and likely the Abbey's and Arcus' will sound best with music. The other speakers will crank nice and loud, but I dunno how resolving they'll be in the midrange department. Speaking of which, the Paradigm's Reference line gets handily beat by the Salk SongTower's and Ascend Sierra Tower's ($2000/pair compared to $5,800/pair). The Digms will go louder for sure, but they don't sound nearly as nice.

Hey that's a better price than I expected. That thing has just under $2000 worth of drivers in it alone! That said lead times might be long (I don't know if he keeps the woofer in stock, and the lead times for the EXCELLENT acoustic elegance woofers can get kinda unpredictable.

The Acoustic Elegance woofers ARE excellent, but calling the lead time unpredictable is dead on the money. It's actually ridiculous, and I'm honestly disappointed in John's communication skills. A few years ago I tried to contact the man in every way possible in order to have a custom subwoofer built; he completely ignored my calls, E-mails and forum post/PM's. I've had a sour taste in my mouth since, regardless of his fantastic products. I'm not trying to knock his company, but I just want to be sure you guys understand that he does things on his own time and in his own way, so don't get your hopes up regarding delivery dates and what not. If the guy ever gets his communication skills in order and his company moving in a timely fashion he'll make one heckuva living off his products. Or maybe John has finally gotten his act in order, but his terrible customer service a few years back is unacceptable IMO. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt, though, and hope he's learned since then.

 

[GranteedEV]

The LSRs and AudioKinesis will be resolving too. The AKs might not have quite the HF smoothness of the abbey but they're not too far off either... same waveguide.

The LSRs are a studio monitor so resolution is the name of the game with them.

I don't know enough about the JTRs to really comment, but a guy did sell his revel studios for a pair of em, so they can't be unresolving in absolute terms. I generally am a big fan of concentric speakers. The high sensitivity just seems too good to be true though huh?

The Acoustic Elegance woofers ARE excellent, but calling the lead time unpredictable is dead on the money. It's actually ridiculous, and I'm honestly disappointed in John's communication skills. A few years ago I tried to contact the man in every way possible in order to have a custom subwoofer built; he completely ignored my calls, E-mails and forum post/PM's. I've had a sour taste in my mouth since, regardless of his fantastic products. I'm not trying to knock his company, but I just want to be sure you guys understand that he does things on his own time and in his own way, so don't get your hopes up regarding delivery dates and what not. If the guy ever gets his communication skills in order and his company moving in a timely fashion he'll make one heckuva living off his products. Or maybe John has finally gotten his act in order, but his terrible customer service a few years back is unacceptable IMO. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt, though, and hope he's learned since then.

That's John. I ordered a pair of TD15Ms as part of the group buy a few months ago. I have NO idea when i will get them but I will eventually. It takes patience to deal with AE and it sounds like in your case you couldn't even get your order in (things seem especially problematic with the AV series woofers)

The Lambda drivers are among the best of the best. Used in the highest end products from Audiokinesis, Salk, Vapor, Seaton, Pi.

The problem is AE is a one-man operation. The customer service is the assembly is the machining is the accounting... He's had staff of 6-7 in the past and basically fired them for not doing their jobs properly. It's a small company fighting to stay afloat, hopefully someday he can get things together as far as staff. I'm being patient with my order, at least. I wouldn't recommend products using his drivers, if the drivers aren't in stock and the buyer isn't patient.

 

[TheWarrior]

With this budget, why are you not looking at RBH? You could easily snag a Reference model with a plain finish for this price point. Scanspeak tweeters and proprietary aluminum woofers.

Surely there is a dealer near you, go swing by and have a listen!

 

[Nuance AH]

The LSRs and AudioKinesis will be resolving too. The AKs might not have quite the HF smoothness of the abbey but they're not too far off either... same waveguide.

The LSRs are a studio monitor so resolution is the name of the game with them.

I don't know enough about the JTRs to really comment, but a guy did sell his revel studios for a pair of em, so they can't be unresolving in absolute terms. I generally am a big fan of concentric speakers. The high sensitivity just seems too good to be true though huh?

I figured as much, but I've never heard them so I cannot comment. As for the JTR's, I don't know. I heard the original Tripple 8 and didn't care for it with music, but in a theater setting it certainly got the job done. They sure can play loud...but yeah - I haven't heard any of the newer products so who knows. For what it's worth, didn't the guy who sold his Revel's admit they were more resolving than the JTR's? It just so happens he was willing to give that up, but I won't. It's all about trade-offs, speaker design is (he says in his best Yoda voice).

That's John. I ordered a pair of TD15Ms as part of the group buy a few months ago. I have NO idea when i will get them but I will eventually. It takes patience to deal with AE and it sounds like in your case you couldn't even get your order in (things seem especially problematic with the AV series woofers)

The Lambda drivers are among the best of the best. Used in the highest end products from Audiokinesis, Salk, Vapor, Seaton, Pi.

The problem is AE is a one-man operation. The customer service is the assembly is the machining is the accounting... He's had staff of 6-7 in the past and basically fired them for not doing their jobs properly. It's a small company fighting to stay afloat, hopefully someday he can get things together as far as staff. I'm being patient with my order, at least. I wouldn't recommend products using his drivers, if the drivers aren't in stock and the buyer isn't patient.

Yup, that is John. I understand the pressure he's under and how meticulous he is, but come on man - get a real staff! Customer service is one of the most important things that consumers value, and if you cannot offer good service in spades it won't matter how good your products are. That's why I don't recommend AE to my friends; you just never know if you'll get your product of if the owner of the company even cares.

I wonder how Salk and the like manager to keep the woofers in stock. Perhaps AE should just focus on Seaton, Salk and the other manufacturers that depend on them more than the every day consumer...? Then, once his staff learns and grows, he can offer products to us average Joe's again. In my opinion he has to pick one and stick with it, as he obviously cannot keep up with the demand.

I am trying to remember the driver I wanted to have used in the dual passive build I liked...think was it was the AV15H or 15V...something like that. Is it still made?

Okay...enough ranting about that; I'm off my soapbox now.

 

[GranteedEV]

As for the JTR's, I don't know. I heard the original Tripple 8 and didn't care for it with music, but in a theater setting it certainly got the job done. They sure can play loud...but yeah - I haven't heard any of the newer products so who knows. For what it's worth, didn't the guy who sold his Revel's admit they were more resolving than the JTR's? It just so happens he was willing to give that up, but I won't. It's all about trade-offs, speaker design is (he says in his best Yoda voice).

Right, all about tradeoffs, which is why everyone should have five pairs of speakers! Of course Revel Studios are in the uper echelon of speakers and cost 3-4X as much. He did state that holistically he as an individual considered the JTRs an upgrade based on his music tastes.

That said the latest batch of JTRs use a very good BMS tweeter. Midnight Sensi thought the new tweeter is a worthwhile upgrade and very smooth.

End of the day it's all about the source content though. All the resolution in the world won't help a mediocre recording, all the dynamics in the world won't matter if the timbre is glaringly inaccurate, all the large soundstage in the world won't help a solo vocalist ;P

 

[Nuance AH]

End of the day it's all about the source content though. All the resolution in the world won't help a mediocre recording, all the dynamics in the world won't matter if the timbre is glaringly inaccurate, all the large soundstage in the world won't help a solo vocalist ;P

Bingo. I've always been awe struck by those who say reference level dynamics is important when listening to music, but then no recordings on the planet that I know of are recorded with the original dynamic range in tact. Even if you listened at the same dB level you wouldn't be achieving your goal of reproducing the live event correctly. And like you said, what about other important factors such as timbre/tonality? Who cares if I can achieve 115dB peaks if my trumpet sounds like a fart?

Trade-offs, trade-offs, trade-offs. The high SPL guys can have their screechy horns and controlled directivity waveguides (horrible for music IMO), while I go down a different path. As long as we're all happy who cares? BUT, back on topic: we're just talking LOUD here, not loud and accurate, so...

 

[GranteedEV]

Trade-offs, trade-offs, trade-offs. The high SPL guys can have their screechy horns and controlled directivity waveguides (horrible for music IMO), while I go down a different path.

There's two ways to achieve high SPLs.

One is to use light driver materials and high diffraction horns. I don't feel comfortable with a lot of the controlled directivity stuff that people think is great. Loud shouldn't be at the expense of sound quality IMO ESPECIALLY not timbre/tonality (resolution... eh... i'll still trade some resolution for a huge soundstage and lifelike dynamics)

The other is the expensive way. Huge magnets, stiffer cones, advanced motor structures. Waveguides that sacrifice some output for low diffraction. Focal's Grand Utopia has one hell of a bass driver for example, but you'd need a second mortgage for the speaker and i'm not sure the speaker is all that great anyways because of the crossover. Acoustic Elegance uses very stiff, relatively heavy pulp cones with very controlled breakup. The Geddes/Audiokinesis oblate spheroid waveguide is really expensive too and only really works correctly with select compression tweeters. I'm still trying to figure out a way to afford a TAD 2001 tweeter - you could get a pair of Philharmonic 3s for the price of those tweeters alone.

Loud + Good = Expensive.

That's why I'm glad OP has a bigger budget. I always laugh a little when people with budgets like mine IE $800 want to fill huge rooms with reference level dynamics and great sound quality.

I like my E55Tis though. I think they're pretty good speakers for $800/pr

 

[83benz240]

A whole new can of worms!!!!!

Nuance - I'm not sure how to answer your question about "how loud" will I be listening to them. If POSSIBLE I would of course like "loud and accurate" but I'm sure that comes with a price $$$.

I have opened a whole new can of worms though and this may give you an idea of how loud. I just received 1 x SVS SB-13 Plus and I am pretty sure I'm going to send it back because I want more. I just emailed Mark Seaton about his Sumbersive HP's and will consider getting 2 of those eventually ( one at a time).

The room they will be in is small (18 x 12 x 8) but it opens up through a door sized whole to the front door foyer/hallway on one end and a larger opening into the dining area and kitchen. I have a back deck off the kitchen too which I will open the doors and windows to when the weather is nice.

Are the Acoustic Elegance woofers in the Vapor Cirrus?


Warrior - I've never heard of RBH. I am new to the whole stereo world. I did a store locator but nothing came up in my area. I searched their site but couldn't find any prices. Do you know which model would fit possibly 2 x Submersive HP's if I do go down that road?

 

[GranteedEV]

Are the Acoustic Elegance woofers in the Vapor Cirrus?

The Cirrus doesn't really have what i'd call a woofer. It's a small, medium sensitivity bookshelf with a 6.5" Audio Technology midwoofer. Dynamic driver that can run with most 8" midwoofers out there, but it's got its obvious limitations. It crosses somewhere near 2khz to a nice RAAL 70-20XR tweeter, but if I were spending this kind of money on an "everyday levels" speaker, i would run straight to the Philharmonics, do not pass go, do not collect $200!

The Arcus is a totally different design. It uses a 10" Acoustic Elegance TD10M midwoofer crossed around 1khz to a Beyma TPL-150 tweeter.

 

[Nuance AH]

Nuance - I'm not sure how to answer your question about "how loud" will I be listening to them. If POSSIBLE I would of course like "loud and accurate" but I'm sure that comes with a price $$$.

I have opened a whole new can of worms though and this may give you an idea of how loud. I just received 1 x SVS SB-13 Plus and I am pretty sure I'm going to send it back because I want more. I just emailed Mark Seaton about his Sumbersive HP's and will consider getting 2 of those eventually ( one at a time).

The room they will be in is small (18 x 12 x 8) but it opens up through a door sized whole to the front door foyer/hallway on one end and a larger opening into the dining area and kitchen. I have a back deck off the kitchen too which I will open the doors and windows to when the weather is nice.

Are the Acoustic Elegance woofers in the Vapor Cirrus?


Warrior - I've never heard of RBH. I am new to the whole stereo world. I did a store locator but nothing came up in my area. I searched their site but couldn't find any prices. Do you know which model would fit possibly 2 x Submersive HP's if I do go down that road?

Before sending back the subwoofer, have you ruled out the room? The room can kill a great subwoofer... If you have a null at a critical spot in the FR it will make any subwoofer sound lacking. With that said, have you thought about Funkywaves? This is just my opinion, but one of their LMS 18" based subs will destroy the Submersive for sound quality in my opinion. I've heard both and there is no contest. I also think the LMS is better for HT too.

Just $0.02.

 

[Pat D]

PSB Synchrony

I have only heard the excellent PSB Synchrony One and the smaller One B. They are quite nice and easy to listen to. The Synchrony Two should sound similar to the Synchrony One but with usable extension to 29 Hz (PSB specs are usually accurate), not as deep as the Synchrony One but pretty impressive. It is at the bottom of your price range.

PSB considers the Synchrony Two be a 4 ohm speaker but they are moderately sensitive so a receiver should drive them well enough in a small room. We use a 75 watt Yamaha receiver for the old PSB Stratus Minis in our family room for HT with no problems, and they are insensitive 4 ohm speakers.

I happen to like the Paradigm Signature line very much and have the first version of the Signature S2, which Stereophile put in Class A, limited LF extension, in our main system. The current Signature version 3 speakers are more pricey, but you may well find some of the earlier versions on the used market.

I think PSB Synchrony and Paradigm Signature speakers are pretty close to as good as it gets, so I think they are worth auditioning. However, there are some other manufacturers who make excellent speaker such as Kef and B & W, but I am not up on their current products. Anyway, you should listen to a number of different speaker, if possible, and try the best out at home. Many dealers will allow you to take equipment home for a trial if you leave your credit card impression--but be sure to insist on a notation on the sales slip to the effect that you can return them within a specified period, in case you don't like them at home.

 

[Warpdrv]

I'll put my simple 2 cents worth in....

Don't buy anything that doesn't have an RAAL tweeter in it...

You don't need floorstanders in a small room.... bookshelves and a good sub or 2 is more then enough...

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The room they will be in is small (18 x 12 x 8) but it opens up through a door sized whole to the front door foyer/hallway on one end and a larger opening into the dining area and kitchen. I have a back deck off the kitchen too which I will open the doors and windows to when the weather is nice.

Are you trying to fill the whole back yard?

 

[83benz240]

So I went totally over budget. I ended up ordering Salk HT3's and two of his Rythmic 15" subs...

Thank you all for the advice. If this doesn't satisfy me I think I'll need a second job.

BTW - he said he had some HT3's with the tweeter used before the RAALs (G2 I think) for a $1000 off. That was tempting when I heard 60 days build time....

No what do I do for the next 60 days?

 

[Nuance AH]

So I went totally over budget. I ended up ordering Salk HT3's and two of his Rythmic 15" subs...

Thank you all for the advice. If this doesn't satisfy me I think I'll need a second job.

BTW - he said he had some HT3's with the tweeter used before the RAALs (G2 I think) for a $1000 off. That was tempting when I heard 60 days build time....

No what do I do for the next 60 days?

Wow - that will be one amazing system! Congrats and welcome to the Salk family.

So you did go with the RAAL's? The difference between them and the G2 aren't as large as the difference between them and the LCY. The RAAL is certainly the superior sounding tweeter, though, IMO.

 

[GranteedEV]

You might wanna pick up a second XPA-2 and bridge both of them into monoblocks, and get some 20A lines installed. I believe those HT3s are very current hungry. I think they hang around 2.5 ohm and are only around 84db sensitive...

You probably want an amp that can belt out 1000w or more into 3 ohms. For reference levels you would need an amp that can dish out 3200w into 3 ohms, so reference is out of the question.

 

[Beatmatcher247]

PSB Synchrony Ones can easily be had in your price range from a decent dealer. MSRP is 5k for a pair of synch ones... 20-30% off is a good and realistic street price on these. These stay very well composed at reference level volumes when crossed over proper 80hz-90hz, whatever your room calls for. I wouldn't push them this hard if you didn't have subs to handle the lower end. I like you, listen to a wide range of musics, and really enjoy them. Definitely worth a listen. I've got mine on a Parasound 5250V2 and they seem to enjoy the extra watts (385W). The bookshelves and center do not seem bothered by the extra power either. Guitar solos hang in the air so thick they'll make your nipples hard. If you close your eyes while you are listening, it is really a surreal experience. You will want to give these a good 4' distance between them and the wall. They have port plugs included but, if you don't have the space behind them I'd consider something that does better with less space behind it.

They are very revealing so if you have mp3s or some other recording that is lacking, you're going to hear every imperfection. I hate how tinny mp3s sound on them so much, that I will no longer listen to my mp3s on anything but my ipod deck in my car over its shitty factory speakers. Between the road noise and the crappy speakers, it really doesn't bother me there.

You may not like what I like so please don't buy these without listening. I really like to jam at louder levels than I should and the way these keep their composure made these a no brainer for me.

Genres of music i listen to: Electronic, Metalcore, classic rock, alternative, heavy metal, classical, and rap that is not crap (no mtv rims and hos ****, true cunning linguists only). They all sound better than I ever remember them sounding.

 

[Beatmatcher247]

Durrr, I didn't see you already purchased your speakers . Enjoy !