Finally, for us vinyl enthusiasts!

[Shadow_Ferret]

Have you considered transferring them to a digital format and burned onto some CD's? Then you wouldn't have to play your rare stuff anymore. Which may be historically important in coming decades if master tapes are damaged and whatnot.......,

I neither have the equipment to do that, nor the cash.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Please. Do you understand what "tongue-in-cheek" means?

Must have missed it this time. Mea Culpa

I will say this in all honesty, I have yet to hear a CD come anywhere near the sound quality of my vinyl.

Must be listeing to the wrong CDs Technically, vinyl is not even on the same planet with CD accuracy.

 

[mtrycrafts]

I would have to agree. It is difficult to get the proper setup, but when you do, nothing beats vinyl for 2 channel music.

Well, we all have opinions
Some are better than others though

 

[Sleestack]

Well, we all have opinions
Some are better than others though

I have been a musician for over 30 years and have a pretty good understanding of how music is supposed to sound. Granted, vinyl can be a pain, but it sounds like you have never heard clean vinyl being played through a proper setup. If you had, I think your opinion might differ.

As for vinyl not being in the same planet as CD accuracy.... CDs are using digital signals that are approximating a true analog wave. CDs can't reproduce an accurate signal, they can only get closer by increasing the sampling rate. Vinyl is a true reproduction of the analog wave, making it more accurate by definition. Sure, you might hear all those hisses and pops when you are listening to bad/dirty vinyl or are using bad equipment, but that has nothing to do with vinyl being less accurate than CDs. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but that is my understanding.

 

[Shadow_Ferret]

That's always been my understanding of it. An analog syne wave is nice and curved and smooth, whereas a digital syne wave is boxy, the very tops and bottoms of the analog wave are sliced off, so you lose some of the decay of the notes that you get with analog. That's why CDs have always sounded "sterile" to me, they lost some of the depth and warmth analog provided.

Must be listeing to the wrong CDs Technically, vinyl is not even on the same planet with CD accuracy.

Actually, I'm yanking your chain. The truth behind my statement is that I've never heard a CD on a hi-fi system, only cheap boomboxes and cheap $10 headphones whereas my vinyl system is far superior to that, thus my statement, I have YET to hear a CD sound as good as my vinyl.

 

[aarond]

can someone tell me how to hook my Kenner close & play up to my 3802 so I can play my old records

 

[Shadow_Ferret]

Problem is, I think Close-n-plays are monaural. You should, however, be able to splice the wires coming off the tonearm to some cabling with RCA connectors and plug them right into your receiver. The 3802 has phono connections so you won't need a turntable preamp.

Happy listening!

 

[MacManNM]

I have been a musician for over 30 years and have a pretty good understanding of how music is supposed to sound. Granted, vinyl can be a pain, but it sounds like you have never heard clean vinyl being played through a proper setup. If you had, I think your opinion might differ.

As for vinyl not being in the same planet as CD accuracy.... CDs are using digital signals that are approximating a true analog wave. CDs can't reproduce an accurate signal, they can only get closer by increasing the sampling rate. Vinyl is a true reproduction of the analog wave, making it more accurate by definition. Sure, you might hear all those hisses and pops when you are listening to bad/dirty vinyl or are using bad equipment, but that has nothing to do with vinyl being less accurate than CDs. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but that is my understanding.

Check this thread out:
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9076

I’ve tried to explain the inadequacies of digital, but he doesn’t understand. He is happy reading every pub out there, and believing every word. It’s sad. Vinyl can sound sooooooo good!

 

[mtrycrafts]

That's always been my understanding of it. An analog syne wave is nice and curved and smooth, whereas a digital syne wave is boxy, the very tops and bottoms of the analog wave are sliced off, so you lose some of the decay of the notes that you get with analog. That's why CDs have always sounded "sterile" to me, they lost some of the depth and warmth analog provided.

Actually you have not seen a sine wave from a CD as it is not as you describe it to be on the output. Nothing is sliced off, no boxy corners, nothing. You must have been reading the wrong books and manuals.
And, CDs are not sterile, just accurate.

 

[mtrycrafts]

I have been a musician for over 30 years and have a pretty good understanding of how music is supposed to sound.

OK. No qualms with that. But, that doesn't give you immunity from beiong biased in your perceptions, in your tatse. Vinyl is only a taste, a preference, not a technical achievement compared to CD technology.


Granted, vinyl can be a pain, but it sounds like you have never heard clean vinyl being played through a proper setup. If you had, I think your opinion might differ.

Or not.

As for vinyl not being in the same planet as CD accuracy.... CDs are using digital signals that are approximating a true analog wave.

No approximation but an exact reproduction, more so than vinyl.

CDs can't reproduce an accurate signal, they can only get closer by increasing the sampling rate.

Absolute hogwash, audio mythology, period.

Vinyl is a true reproduction of the analog wave, making it more accurate by definition.

More nonsense, audio voodoo. Now that you khave music down pat, expand into learning about digital audio, not mythology and voodoo.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but that is my understanding.

Yes, you need correcting a whole bunch, you are way off base.

 

[mtrycrafts]

It’s sad. Vinyl can sound sooooooo good!

Don't be sad. Vinyl does have a pleasing sound. Accurate? LOL.

 

[WmAx]

I’ve tried to explain the inadequacies of digital, but he doesn’t understand.

Oh yes, the tiny residual of aliasing breaching the anti-alias filter, that remains buried far beneath the primary signal, so far in fact as to be inaudible in any properly designed modern digital playback equipment. It's a tragedy! Of course, there is also the poor transient response that occurs when approaching Nyquist. More horror! (Nevermind that the human ear can not differentiate this phase distortion at high frequencies.)

He is happy reading every pub out there, and believing every word. It’s sad. Vinyl can sound sooooooo good!

I read the same publications as mtrycraft -- the credible ones produced and presented by real scientists and engineers that are only concerned with what is scientifically deducted(as opposed to ignorant proclomations based on no scientific deduction). So very sad, indeed.

-Chris

 

[mtrycrafts]

By the way

I have been a musician for over 30 years and have a pretty good understanding of how music is supposed to sound. .

And I have spoken with musician friends and other musicians with that many years of experience. Guess what. They tell a different story about CD and vinyl
They tell me what I know, vinyl doesn't hold a candle to CD. So, why should I believe you over them? Or, other professionals in the field or your opinion?
I will stick to science, not a belief system, thank you

Check out **** Pierce's response, or Stewart Pinkertons:

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.audio.high-end/browse_frm/thread/759d781c924238c7/2fa1f85a2a7c985b?dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&prev=/groups?hl=en&group=rec.audio.high-end#2fa1f85a2a7c985b

Or this DBT:
http://www.bostonaudiosociety.org/bas_speaker/abx_testing2.htm

Or this:

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.audio.high-end/browse_frm/thread/b5b3d74ebf5195d9/653de88007541118?dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&prev=/groups?hl=en&group=rec.audio.high-end#653de88007541118

Not to mention other publishings.

As the old saying goes about the horse and water, right

 

[Sleestack]

Why don't you just rely on your own experiences rather than being so reliant on 3rd party information? I have no problem with CDs. They comprise 90% of my listening simply b/c vinyl is a pain. That being said, I'm not sure why exactly you think CDs, which rely on digital waves that are by definition innacurate, are more accurate than vinyl? I'm not saying that CDs are detectably innacurate, but how can you say an analog wave isn't accurate? Rather than just cut and paste esoteric links, can you actually provide your own understanding of the issue? I would particularly like to hear your understanding of how a digital reproduction of an analog sound wave is a perfect reproduction of that sound wave.

And I have spoken with musician friends and other musicians with that many years of experience. Guess what. They tell a different story about CD and vinyl
They tell me what I know, vinyl doesn't hold a candle to CD. So, why should I believe you over them? Or, other professionals in the field or your opinion?
I will stick to science, not a belief system, thank you

Check out **** Pierce's response, or Stewart Pinkertons:

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.audio.high-end/browse_frm/thread/759d781c924238c7/2fa1f85a2a7c985b?dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&prev=/groups?hl=en&group=rec.audio.high-end#2fa1f85a2a7c985b

Or this DBT:
http://www.bostonaudiosociety.org/bas_speaker/abx_testing2.htm

Or this:

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.audio.high-end/browse_frm/thread/b5b3d74ebf5195d9/653de88007541118?dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&prev=/groups?hl=en&group=rec.audio.high-end#653de88007541118

Not to mention other publishings.

As the old saying goes about the horse and water, right

 

[shokhead]

Check this thread out:
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9076

I’ve tried to explain the inadequacies of digital, but he doesn’t understand. He is happy reading every pub out there, and believing every word. It’s sad. Vinyl can sound sooooooo good!

I know. I miss the hiss and cracks soooooooo much i might try buying a cd with just those sounds recorded. They might just sound better digital.

 

[Shadow_Ferret]

You must really be listening to some poorly handled vinyl. Only my really old and abused copies do that.

And like my CDs never skip and are completely indistructable, like promised.

I like CDs for their portability though. I've replaced all my 8-tracks with them.

 

[Rip Van Woofer]

...That being said, I'm not sure why exactly you think CDs, which rely on digital waves that are by definition innacurate, are more accurate than vinyl? I'm not saying that CDs are detectably innacurate, but how can you say an analog wave isn't accurate?

ALL recording is "by definition inaccurate". The problems start at the microphone! But an analog master tape is very accurate, indeed. So is a digital master tape. A state of the art analog master tape and a digital master tape are most likely very close in accuracy.

The problem with analog STORAGE media (vinyl) is that by the time the sound has been pressed into the grooves, measurable and audible losses, distortion, and noise, especially in the high frequencies, have occurred as an inevitable part of the process. Further degradation is inherent in playback with even the best phono cartridge and tonearm. (This laser turntable sounds like a good, albeit expensive, way around that latter problem, to be sure).

By contrast, digital is just numerical binary data. The losses and distortion down the recording/playback chain are much fewer. The final result on a CD is much closer -- hence, more accurate -- to the master tape than any vinyl pressing could hope to be.

When the great conductor Herbert von Karajan first heard digital recording, he is said to have exclaimed, "All else is gaslight!" I'll put my money on guys like von Karajan any day.

 

[shokhead]

You must really be listening to some poorly handled vinyl. Only my really old and abused copies do that.

And like my CDs never skip and are completely indistructable, like promised.

I like CDs for their portability though. I've replaced all my 8-tracks with them.

Cd's need to stay clean like vinyl. I've NEVER had one skip althought skip is more vinyl talk then cd. Never had one break. My first cd's that i bought sound just the same as the first day. Thats had to say about vinyl. I did the same route,45's and albums,4-Track,8-Track,cassette and cd's. Sorry,no reel to reel. Cant go wrong keeping the vinal and cd's both. Different sound,both good but cd's play in my car better.

 

[Sleestack]

ALL recording is "by definition inaccurate". The problems start at the microphone! But an analog master tape is very accurate, indeed. So is a digital master tape. A state of the art analog master tape and a digital master tape are most likely very close in accuracy.

The problem with analog STORAGE media (vinyl) is that by the time the sound has been pressed into the grooves, measurable and audible losses, distortion, and noise, especially in the high frequencies, have occurred as an inevitable part of the process. Further degradation is inherent in playback with even the best phono cartridge and tonearm. (This laser turntable sounds like a good, albeit expensive, way around that latter problem, to be sure).

By contrast, digital is just numerical binary data. The losses and distortion down the recording/playback chain are much fewer. The final result on a CD is much closer -- hence, more accurate -- to the master tape than any vinyl pressing could hope to be.

When the great conductor Herbert von Karajan first heard digital recording, he is said to have exclaimed, "All else is gaslight!" I'll put my money on guys like von Karajan any day.

Now that is an explantion that I think about. I'm definitely aware of the degredation during playback, however, I didn't really think about the pressing process. So essentially, even though analog wave is a more accurate reproduction of the sound that is recorded (b/c digital is only a infinitely close approximation of that sound), the vinyl pressing process introduces elmements that are not faithful to the original recording, thus making the vinyl less accurate relative to the orignal recording?

 

[mtrycrafts]

Why don't you just rely on your own experiences rather than being so reliant on 3rd party information?

I rely on experts with more knowledge and experience than I have. Rather simple. And, experiences can be unreliable, faulty and plain wrong. If I relied on my experience in sticking a stick in water, it would tell me that the water has bent that stick. I would be totally wrong, don't you think??? Maybe I should consult experts with more experience?



That being said, I'm not sure why exactly you think CDs, which rely on digital waves that are by definition innacurate,

That is only your definition. Irrelevant.

are more accurate than vinyl?

Vinyl is a storage medium only. Period. Flawed from the go. Inferior from the go. End of story.

I'm not saying that CDs are detectably innacurate, but how can you say an analog wave isn't accurate?

Vinyl is inaccurate as a storage medium.

Rather than just cut and paste esoteric links, can you actually provide your own understanding of the issue?

Better to get the experts knowledge than what I think.

I would particularly like to hear your understanding of how a digital reproduction of an analog sound wave is a perfect reproduction of that sound wave.

Consult the experts. It is, certainly more so than from the vinyl. Conversion of the signals from the mic to digital will retain more accurately the signal then a vinyl can. Period. Vinyl is a mechanical process, highly flawed and prone to more error than the electronic conversion to digital and reconversion to analog to the speaker. End of that story.