Final system question

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Pyrrho

Pyrrho

Audioholic Ninja
Hi everyone -

After multiple iterations, u-turns, false starts, etc., I've finally made my basement HT decisions.

Display: Panasonic 65" VT60
Front L/R: Aperion Verus Grand Bookshelf
Center: Aperion Forte Center
Surround L/R: Aperion Intimus 4BP
Subwoofer: HSU VTF-2
AVR: Denon 2809ci (re-using existing equip)
BD: Oppo BP-103

Now my final question, I have dedicated 20amp circuits for the display and AVR electronics. Am I ok with a Home Depot surge protector to plug everything into, or do I need a Panamax/Monster type power conditioner with cool blue lights and gauges that I can spend endless hours gazing into?
You are probably fine without adding anything at all. But I would go ahead and get a cheap surge protector anyway. But pay attention to the numbers, not shiny lights on the stupid thing. I have never had a problem, and I have never spent much for surge protection. And I have had audio gear for decades, living in several different parts of the U.S. over the years.

Obviously, I cannot promise you that you will never have any such problems. But even if you buy something with a supposed guarantee, you will likely have trouble getting them to pay. After all, how will you prove it was plugged into their thing, and that the problem with your gear was from a power surge instead of misuse or manufacturer defect or something else?

If you search online, you can find plenty of people complaining about surge protector companies not paying for damage to gear. So I think you should probably regard all such warranties as meaningless.
 
J

jneutron

Senior Audioholic
It was explained multiple times. A simple concept. But he intentionally ignores it. Otherwise he would have to apologize for all his insults.
I have told you in the past, I will tell you again..

READ YOUR OWN LINKS....UNDERSTAND THEM. STOP BEING SO CLUELESS.

Quoted from the first paragraph of your link...

High-resistance grounding enabled a lightning strike to destroy expensive transmitter equipment here.

What part of high resistance did you not understand???

Quote from the same article farther down....

West found that the grounding "electrode" serving the tower and transmitter room was actually a length of ordinary steel all-thread rod driven into the ground near the tower base. Resistance to earth was an astonishing 550 ohms (Figure 1), 22 times the maximum resistance cited by the National Electrical Code® and more than two orders of magnitude higher than the level recommended by such standardssetting organizations as IEEE and TIA/EIA.

We already know that when the resistance to earth is more than 100 times worse that recommended, problems will occur.

When I wish to and have the time, I can take apart every post you make for technical and foolish errors. This last post is no exception.

Your shtick here is over, you've been exposed for what you are.

Oh, and the Nebraska link? Golly gee, bad grounding...go figure. W-dude writes as if reliance on surge supressors caused the problem...It was not the problem, poorly designed grounding was. And, they engineered a solution using 40 foot long grounding rods, and a ring of 50 foot deep rods, all tied properly using 250kcmil copper conductor. They went that deep because groundwater purity was so good it impacted conductivity..

250 kcmil is the grounding size of choice for me, I use it all the time.

cheers, jn
 
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J

jneutron

Senior Audioholic
I respectfully disagree with this on several points.
Over time, you will begin to realize that he is not actually discussing what you stated. He only cuts and pastes. If one were to waste their time searching, they would find the exact same sentences over and over, pasted in what he believes to be relevant places.

I did google something like Nebraska and Surge Protection, found a story about KROA's tower getting struck by lighting, and their poorly designed grounding system basically re-directed the strike through equipment. Interesting, if inapplicable story. But I assume that's not what you're referring to.
He did post the links. He unfortunately, doesn't read the content. The alternative is that he read the content but doesn't understand. The 550 ohm tower ground resistance cited in the fla article was pointed out to w-dude at least three times now, and that's just by me. So many others have tried to correct his ridiculously erroneous beliefs.

Eventually you will realize it is a waste of time trying to teach w-dude anything. The best that can be hoped for is that those who actually know, understand, and live the topic professionally pipe up whenever w-dude starts piling it on. If nobody warns the forum members, some of his rantings could actually endanger lives.

At the very least, his continued libelous and slanderous comments towards manufacturers such as monster and belkin can raise legal concerns for this site.


jn
 
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gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
At the very least, his continued libelous and slanderous comments towards manufacturers such as monster and belkin can raise legal concerns for this site.
Hey John, how you been? I saw your post and wanted to see what all the fuss was about on this thread. Haven't read the whole thread yet but wanted to point out that Audioholics.com is NOT responsible for opinions/comments fellow forum members make on this site. You can read our FAQ and legal rules of the forum where that is clearly stated.
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
The other thing to keep in mind, a whole house protector doesn't come with the "insurance policy" of at least $10,000 gear repair/replacement if damaged. A direct lightning strike on your power line will blow the whole house protector and stuff connected too. Nothing stops a direct strike. But if you also have a $10 Monster strip and that happens, your stuff gets fixed or replaced.
There are a lot of caveats to that. Have you ever heard of a consumer actually collecting on such a warranty? I haven't personally and I know many people whose equipment that was attached to a similar surge protector with warranty was fried and not covered.
 
A

avengineer

Banned
Over time, you will begin to realize that he is not actually discussing what you stated. He only cuts and pastes. If one were to waste their time searching, they would find the exact same sentences over and over, pasted in what he believes to be relevant places.



He did post the links. He unfortunately, doesn't read the content. The alternative is that he read the content but doesn't understand. The 550 ohm tower ground resistance cited in the fla article was pointed out to w-dude at least three times now, and that's just by me. So many others have tried to correct his ridiculously erroneous beliefs.

Eventually you will realize it is a waste of time trying to teach w-dude anything. The best that can be hoped for is that those who actually know, understand, and live the topic professionally pipe up whenever w-dude starts piling it on. If nobody warns the forum members, some of his rantings could actually endanger lives.

At the very least, his continued libelous and slanderous comments towards manufacturers such as monster and belkin can raise legal concerns for this site.


jn
It would seem that in both the Florida and Nebraska cases the lightning strike was directly to the tower. The tower ground was unusually high resistance, and the energy traveled back to the equipment through the outer conductor of the coax transmission line, which would normally be considered grounded. This would raise the potential of anything "grounded" at the facility, and that energy would then seek a better path to real ground through any conductors available including signal wires.

Those scenarios are very different, from a protection standpoint, from what would normally be encountered at a home, where the possible strike potential would enter the facility on power lines. While I do appreciate that a good ground is essential, and that whole-house protection is the way to go, in practice, where have you ever seen a home with a ground electrode driven 130' into the earth? It's usually a 4 or 6' electrode. Where has an electrician verified the ground conductor's resistance to ground? Nope, not done.

As to the little MOV surge protectors found in appliances and equipment made to withstand a 600V surge...um, no, they're not in everything, and a 600V surge is relatively low, especially if we're talking lightning strike.

Apparently I'm ill informed about the efficacy of surge protectors equipment replacement policies. I finally found the Monster "connected equipment" warranty policy spelled out in one of their manuals, and will read it in detail to see the limitations, and try to summarize.
 
Steve81

Steve81

Audioholics Five-0
There are a lot of caveats to that. Have you ever heard of a consumer actually collecting on such a warranty? I haven't personally and I know many people whose equipment that was attached to a similar surge protector with warranty was fried and not covered.
I don't know about surge protector warranties, but I would recommend folks read up on their homeowners/renters insurance policies. I've been fortunate to never have any gear fry, but I've had some losses thanks to the thunderstorms and consequent multi-day power outages my area has seen in the last few years that have been covered without any fuss.
 
J

jneutron

Senior Audioholic
Hey John, how you been? I saw your post and wanted to see what all the fuss was about on this thread.
Doing quite well Gene. Although, extremely busy... Designing a 150 kV warm to cold feed-through for a liquid argon application..did I ever tell you experimental physicists are just plain nuts?? 30kV is the highest anyone's gone so far that I've found. Home life is great, even busier there..

How are you? Your site looks good while others seem to come and go. Hope it's all working well for you, and that you actually go home at night..
Haven't read the whole thread yet but wanted to point out that Audioholics.com is NOT responsible for opinions/comments fellow forum members make on this site. You can read our FAQ and legal rules of the forum where that is clearly stated.
I always worry about the possibility of de-facto approval of a poster's content when that poster says things that is allowed to remain up, vs of course the ugly choice of censure. Some vendors of course, may not let the FAQ's and disclaimers stop them..

jn
 
W

westom

Audioholic
While I do appreciate that a good ground is essential, and that whole-house protection is the way to go, in practice, where have you ever seen a home with a ground electrode driven 130' into the earth? It's usually a 4 or 6' electrode. Where has an electrician verified the ground conductor's resistance to ground? Nope, not done.
First, earthing must meet and exceed electrical code requirements. Nobody needs a 130 foot ground. Since in most cases, two 10 foot ground rods are more than sufficient. 4 or 6 foot ground rods are a code violation. And also insufficient for surge protection.

Important is the single point ground. Then earth can even rise to 10,000 volts. And nothing inside sees any voltage. These well proven concepts are called equipotential and conductivity. And are introduced (without describing them) in the case studies.

Case studies demonstrate that defective grounds violated those principles. In one case, the radio station people even disconnected grounds on a myth that grounds were attracting lightning. How did they stop all surge damage? They simple fixed the earth grounds. Created single point grounds. Wasted no time and money on more protectors. Then all damage stopped.

Unfortunately one gets caustic when these well proven concepts contradict popular myths. He never did this stuff. I did. Earthing for homes is easily established to make direct lightning strikes (and the many lesser transients) irrelevant. So that 99.5% to 99.9% of surges do no damage (numbers from the IEEE). One can add power strip or UPS protectors for maybe an additional 0.2% protection.

Protection is also a function of geology. In one home, a 'whole house' protector was properly earthed. And they still suffered damage. Lightning is a connection from cloud to earth. That current continues maybe miles through earth to distant earthborne charges. As long as that path does not pass inside a house, then no damage. But appliances were still damaged.

Eventually, a vein of graphite was discovered behind the house. A best path was incoming on AC mains, ignore the service entrance earth ground, pass through appliances, then connect to that graphite vein.

As usual, the solution is found in better earthing. A ground wire loop around the building connected to the service entrance (single point) earth ground. Now equipotential was made better. Earth beneath the entire house was one big single point earth ground. Better equipotential (and conductivity) was created. Now a best connection to distant earthborne charges was incoming on AC mains, through a 'whole house' protector, into the ground wire loop, to a graphite vein, and to distant charges. Now the path remained outside the building. Protection is always about the earthing.

This was a rare failure. Most homes are sufficiently earthed by two ten foot ground rods. But homeowners that want even better protection use this ground loop or another superior earthing method - Ufer grounds. Because surge protection is always defined by the connection to and quality of single point earth ground. And not by protectors.

2) Surges are not voltage. If its current is properly connected to earth, then a lightning strike creates near zero voltage. Voltage only exists when something foolishly tries to stop a surge (ie an adjacent protector or UPS). Those adjacent protectors will absorb how much energy? Hundreds of joules? A protector adjacent to an appliance can only block or absorb a surge. Increasing voltage. Meanwhile, typically destructive surges are hundreds of thousands of joules. Creates near zero voltage when the connection to a better earth ground is low impedance (ie 'less than 10 feet').

3) Once permitted inside, that current will hunt for earth ground destructively via appliances. A typical surge on AC mains is incoming to every appliance. Are all appliances damaged? Of course not. The one or few damaged appliances must also have an outgoing path to earth. Damaged appliance have both an incoming and outgoing path. Then those appliances act like a 'whole house' protector to protect other appliances.

Informed consumers spend maybe as little as $50 for an earthed 'whole house' protector. So that no appliance need be damaged. So that direct lightning strikes (when properly earthed) do not even damage the protector. Then near zero voltage exists from a surge. A voltage that remains well below what all appliances are designed to withstand without damage.

4) Plug-in protectors will not even mention earth ground. Since that would harm sales. Informed consumers earth a 'whole house' protector. Protectors are simple dumb science. The 'art' of protection (as made obvious in so many case studies) is what does the protection - single point earth ground. That house adjacent to a graphite vein is one example of the "art".
 
Rickster71

Rickster71

Audioholic Spartan
.....where have you ever seen a home with a ground electrode driven 130' into the earth? It's usually a 4 or 6' electrode.
The NEC calls for two 8' long grounding electrodes, no less than 6' apart.
Any electrode that doesn't have a resistance to ground of 25 ohms or less must be augmented with additional electrodes.
That's the way I've done it for at least the last 13 years. Older installations will have one rod, however it will be supplemented with a water pipe connection.

Where has an electrician verified the ground conductor's resistance to ground? Nope, not done.
In a residential environment it's not verified, since two electrodes work very well. Also, at an 8ft depth it's known to hit damp/wet earth, they aren't necessarily checked.

I've had them checked in all industrial, laboratory, and military installations.
 
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J

jneutron

Senior Audioholic
At it again, eh W-dude??

Sigh... here is just the first paragraph, I have inserted corrections using red, the black text is yours.

First, earthing must meet and exceed electrical code requirements.[Wrong. It must only meet. NEC 2005, 2008, 2011 do not require exceeding code requirements. . Nobody needs a 130 foot ground. Wrong. If the groundwater quality and depth are such that the impedance to earth doesn't meet green book, especially when it's a comm tower involved, then the ground has to go further down. Since in most cases, two 10 foot ground rods are more than sufficient. Totally wrong. Code requires a second rod in the event the first has an impedance greater than 25 ohms. Once the second is connected, there is no requirement that the two must meet the 25 ohm criteria. Therefore, if the first measured 200, and the second measures 200, the sum will be 100. And in no way is that "more than sufficient". 4 or 6 foot ground rods are a code violation. And also insufficient for surge protection. Wrong. you do not understand the distinction between a line surge, a line transient, and a lifting of system ground related to a strike. LEARN IT. A line to line surge has nothing to do with the earthing at the residence. Earthing is there for lightning.
As is evident, almost everything you write is inaccurate. I only chose to respond to the first of 12 paragraphs.

Learn the topic. As you can see from the amount of red, you have no knowledge on the topic.

Stop pretending to be an engineer.


Steve81...thanks for the link, it's a good read for the basics without overkill..

I point out this statement on page 15:
2.2 Surge Protective Device Ratings
There are three requirements of the service entrance SPD. They are as follows:
1) To suppress the larger surges from the outside environment to levels that
would not be damaging to equipment at the service entrance, or to
equipment (air conditioning, wired-in appliances) directly connected to
the branch circuits.
2) To reduce the surge current to the downstream SPDs (including
multiport SPDs).
3) To stop the large lightning currents from passing into the house wiring
system and damaging the wiring or inducing large voltages that would
damage electronic equipment.
As I've pointed out prior, the use of the multiport spd at the electronics is very good, as it bonds all the grounds together at the equipment, inputs, outs, lines.. Even back in 2005 when that booklet was published, they were already discussing the multi-tiered approach with a whole house SPD in conjunction with the end of branch spd's..
Note that "3" is speaking of line to line, line to neutral, and line to ground within a branch circuit. Not the overall system float voltage, which neither end of use nor whole house can control

jn
 
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A

avengineer

Banned
At it again, eh W-dude??

Sigh... here is just the first paragraph, I have inserted corrections using red, the black text is yours.

First, earthing must meet and exceed electrical code requirements.[Wrong. It must only meet. NEC 2005, 2008, 2011 do not require exceeding code requirements. . Nobody needs a 130 foot ground. Wrong. If the groundwater quality and depth are such that the impedance to earth doesn't meet green book, especially when it's a comm tower involved, then the ground has to go further down. Since in most cases, two 10 foot ground rods are more than sufficient. Totally wrong. Code requires a second rod in the event the first has an impedance greater than 25 ohms. Once the second is connected, there is no requirement that the two must meet the 25 ohm criteria. Therefore, if the first measured 200, and the second measures 200, the sum will be 100. And in no way is that "more than sufficient". 4 or 6 foot ground rods are a code violation. And also insufficient for surge protection. Wrong. you do not understand the distinction between a line surge, a line transient, and a lifting of system ground related to a strike. LEARN IT. A line to line surge has nothing to do with the earthing at the residence. Earthing is there for lightning.
As is evident, almost everything you write is inaccurate. I only chose to respond to the first of 12 paragraphs.

Learn the topic. As you can see from the amount of red, you have no knowledge on the topic.

Stop pretending to be an engineer.


jn
Thanks, jn, I was about to mention some of that. In the oft cited Nebraska and Florida cases, the ground systems were more or less typical, but inadequate. Nebraska had the typical electrode, and in soil with the water table 5' below grade, yet the ground resistance was still too high.

And thanks for underscoring the distinction between line surge, line transient and lifting of system ground from a strike.
 
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W

westom

Audioholic
In the oft cited Nebraska and Florida cases, the ground systems were more or less typical, but inadequate. Nebraska had the typical electrode, and in soil with the water table 5' below grade, yet the ground resistance was still too high.
And again, the resistance was not the problem. Basic grounding principles, not required by the NEC, were violated. Underlying principles are defined by equipotential and conductivity. Since equipotential was insufficient, then restoring that function in both case studies averted future damage.

How was lightning damage averted? In both cases, they only fixed the defective earth ground to create equipotential and conductivity. Protectors would have done nothing useful. Concepts completely unknown to some who replace facts with silly caustic comments.

Better protection means exceeding NEC requirements. For example, low impedance (not even discussed by NEC) means a connection to earthing without sharp bends. Sharp bends are totally acceptable to code. If the ground wire from a breaker box goes up over the foundation, then those two sharp bends compromise earthing; compromise protection. Because sharp bends seriously increase impedance. Protection means that connection must be lower impedance. Which is discussed in those case studies. And completely ignored by fools who only read what they wanted to see.

Informed consumers learn from engineers who know this stuff. Destructive surges must be earthed BEFORE entering the building. Otherwise nothing can stop a destructive hunt for earth via electronics. Even those multiport protectors do not claim to protect from that type of surge - the one that typically does damage.
 
Rickster71

Rickster71

Audioholic Spartan
Better protection means exceeding NEC requirements. For example, low impedance (not even discussed by NEC) means a connection to earthing without sharp bends. Sharp bends are totally acceptable to code.

NFPA 780 deals specificaly with lightning protection. Not the NEC.
 
J

jneutron

Senior Audioholic
Again, corrections to blatently incorrect material is in red.

And again, the resistance was not the problem. WRONG again. Stop lying. The articles you cite state very specifically that the resistance was the problem. IN ADDITION the Nebraska article cited idiotic things done to the guy wire groundings in ill informed attempts at solving a problem. I suspect they probably listened to YOUR unsafe rantings about "single point", and blindly tried to do it with no education at all.. Basic grounding principles, not required by the NEC, were violated. Underlying principles are defined by equipotential and conductivity. Since equipotential was insufficient, then restoring that function in both case studies averted future damage. You have absolutely no idea what equipotential means. Nebraska tried making a faraday cage using copper, it doesn't work. The magfield drops off as 1/R for individual conductors, and as 1/spacing for a makeshift cage. You don't know what you are talking about.
LEARN THE MATERIAL. That, or stop posting garbage that is unsafe.

And in no case have you provided any useful or accurate information for the OP. Get off it.

This makes me laugh....
Informed consumers learn from engineers who know this stuff.
You are neither. Stop pretending, you are a danger to others..

jn
 
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W

westom

Audioholic
A least informed poster will prove a superior ego with myths and accusations posted in red. Case studies were quite clear. Damage was due to detective earthing. They fixed the earthing. Installed no protectors. Then direct lightning strikes no longer caused damage. Reasons why were provided even by an engineer who did this stuff. And denied using cheapshots from someone who apparently only has repairman experience. Who does not even understand relevant concepts such as low impedance. Who never learned a well proven reality: protection requires a short (ie 'less than 10 foot') connection to earth.

With respect for science, then his wacky claims would be supported by numbers. He cannot provide numbers. Otherwise all would learn how little he really knows. He does not provide even one specification number from a power strip protector. For one simple reason. Those devices do not even claim to protect from destructive surges. Responsible posters include hard numbers. Need not make cheapshot accusations.

Effective protection is about earthing hundreds of thousands of joules. A number. So that it does not fail, one 'whole house' protector is at least 50,000 amps. A number. That number also says why fire (created by undersized protectors) is not a concern. This superior protection costs about $1 per protected appliance. A number. More responsible companies (ie General Electric, Square D, Leviton, Syscom, Siemens, ABB, Ditek, Cutler-Hammer, Polyphaser) provide these superior, less expensive, and proven protectors.

No need to post reality in big red letters. Emotions and cheapshots need not explain well proven science. Technology, well proven for over 100 years, earths every incoming wire. Either directly (ie coax cable). Or via a 'whole house' protector (ie AC electric, telephone). How curious. Whenever a professional installs protection, he connect to that single point earth ground.

A best protection method is Ufer grounds. Dr Ufer developed this earthing method so that direct lightning strikes are harmless even in munitions dumps. Direct lightning strikes without damage are routine. Due to greater risk, muntiions dumps will never do what is claimed in big red letters. They do not need scams (claims made without numbers) that can even create fire. Instead they always use the 'whole house' solution. As in always.

The naive foolishly assumed better earthing is about a rod reaching down into ground water. Honest posters would have first learned number from engineering text books. Even limestone is 20 times more conductive than distilled water. And ten times more conductive than fresh water. But then the better informed may install an Ufer ground. Because that concrete connection is even more conductive. Only the naive, using emotions, have assumed water is more conductive. Best earthing is not a 130 foot ground rod. That wild speculation was emotions replacing informed science.

Protection means any potentially destructive current is earthed BEFORE entering a building. Otherwise only protection is what is already inside every appliance. Nothing on its power cord claims to protect from typically destructive surges. None of those big red letters provide numbers that says otherwise. Cheapshots identify a poster who knows almost nothing about this stuff.

A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.
 
A

avengineer

Banned
Every detective I know is very down to earth, but they damage very little.
 
tmurnin

tmurnin

Full Audioholic
Sorry I asked what I thought was a relatively simple question as this thread has become nothing more than a virtual pissing match and completely unhelpful.
 
W

westom

Audioholic
Sorry I asked what I thought was a relatively simple question
Monster has a long history of identifying scams. Then selling an equivalent product with more expensive looking paint at higher prices. At this point, that should be obvious. An equivalent circuit to Panamax/Monster is a $10 power strip selling in Walmart. View spec numbers. Ignore subjective recommendations.

Manufacturers with better integrity provide a 'whole house' protector. With the always required low impedance (ie 'less than 10 foot') connection to earth. These are provided by Siemens, Leviton, Syscom, General Electric, Square D, Intermatic, Polyphaser, ABB and Ditek to name but a few. A Cutler-Hammer (Eaton) version sells in Lowes and Home Depot. With numbers that actually claim protection from direct lightning strikes (and lesser surges).

If electronics need protection, then so do a dishwasher, clocks, air conditioner, security system, refrigerator, and (most important) smoke detectors. What protects all? Earthing (ie a 'less than 10 foot' connection) and one 'whole house' protector. No better solution exists.

Manufacturer spec numbers for Monster or Panamax do not even claim protection.

Professionals use products from those responsible companies. And ungrade the most important item - earth ground. Hearsay recommends spending tens or 100 times more money for an expensive magic box. Ignore earth ground. A pretend those hundreds of thousands of joules do not exist.

Where do hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate? Only engineers provided damning numbers that answered the question. Facilities that cannot have damage always upgrade earthing and use 'whole house' type protectors. As in always. That was your only useful answer from an engineer who did this stuff even decades ago. Simply learn only from this post to spend tens or 100 times less money AND avert future damage.

It was always that simple. And how it was done even 100 years ago.
 
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