External Amp...

[Alex2507]

Perhaps the comparison method was unreliable? No reason for this to happen at lower volumes.

Maybe the phase and impedance curves of her speakers would explain it.

 

[Chopin_Guy]

Ok...so here is my final question...I don't think I can justify spending the $$$ on a d-sonic (they are in Houston actually so I would have to pay tax making nearly the same cost as Wyred which are slightly better) no matter how much I would like it...so which would you choose?? I can get a used (Audiogon) Rotel RB-1080 for $575 (200 watts x 2) or a new Emo XPA-3 (250 x 2) for $599....Any thoughts???

 

[mtrycrafts]

Maybe the phase and impedance curves of her speakers would explain it.

That would explain the high power end, but not the low level end.

 

[PENG]

Ok...so here is my final question...I don't think I can justify spending the $$$ on a d-sonic (they are in Houston actually so I would have to pay tax making nearly the same cost as Wyred which are slightly better) no matter how much I would like it...so which would you choose?? I can get a used (Audiogon) Rotel RB-1080 for $575 (200 watts x 2) or a new Emo XPA-3 (250 x 2) for $599....Any thoughts???

I don't like the look of the EMO but that's just me. The Rotel does not have a power rating for 4 ohm and that bothers me a little. It would have been fine except that if you still don't like how the RTi12 sounds you might still be wondering if more power would have made a difference.

The RTi12 may still not get you what you expect even with more power. TLS had written something about their crossovers being the problem. He may be wrong but he may be right. I think one of their real problems is that the use of 3X7" bass drivers give people the impression that they should not need a subwoofer. Reality is, for their price that would seem wishful thinking. If you really like Polkaudio products, you would gain more by switching to a pair of LSi9 plus a subwoofer.

The minimum impedance of the RTi12 is probably closer to 4 ohms and Polk recommends 50 to 500 WPC for them. So in order to put this alleged RTi12 needs lots of power issue to bed, you should get an amp that can push 500 W into 4 ohms. That way, they will get the maximum recommended by the manufacturer and you should be able to get the best out of them.

The XPA-2 fits the criteria not the XPA-3.

 

[PENG]

Maybe the phase and impedance curves of her speakers would explain it.

Phase and impedance curves definitely have major impact on how hard a speaker is to drive. In this case, it still depends on how one defines "low volume".

 

[greggp2]

What you said may apply to certain extent to entry level AVR but IMHO not the case for AVRs such as the Arcam 200, Denon 38XX, Yamaha 1800, Onkyo 805, and above.

Once you get pass the entry level stuff, adding external amps mainly get you the flexibility to drive low impedance loads, improved headroom and ability to play louder, but won't necessarily get you more details and clarity at low listening levels as such. In such cases, upgrading speakers will likely yield more significant SQ improvements.

Would you include Rotel in this list? I would think so. And based on the list, I would guess you would include the v3900 from Yamaha. The comparison between a 250 Watt/ch Emotiva to my current Rotel AVR and the Yamaha v3900 proves what I mentioned earlier. Yes you get more flexibility too, but the extra power absolutely brings the speakers to life and reveals far more information than just running an AVR...

I've done the comparison with 2 high end AVR's now and there is a major difference.

 

[Alex2507]

That would explain the high power end, but not the low level end.

Phase and impedance curves definitely have major impact on how hard a speaker is to drive. In this case, it still depends on how one defines "low volume".

That's good to know too because for my current needs anything much past 80dB at a distance of 10' from the speakers is obscene.

 

[greggp2]

Ok...so here is my final question...I don't think I can justify spending the $$$ on a d-sonic (they are in Houston actually so I would have to pay tax making nearly the same cost as Wyred which are slightly better) no matter how much I would like it...so which would you choose?? I can get a used (Audiogon) Rotel RB-1080 for $575 (200 watts x 2) or a new Emo XPA-3 (250 x 2) for $599....Any thoughts???

I think the XPA-2 is a better option for you, but the XPA-3 would still be better than running you speakers through an AVR..

 

[PENG]

Would you include Rotel in this list? I would think so. And based on the list, I would guess you would include the v3900 from Yamaha. The comparison between a 250 Watt/ch Emotiva to my current Rotel AVR and the Yamaha v3900 proves what I mentioned earlier. Yes you get more flexibility too, but the extra power absolutely brings the speakers to life and reveals far more information than just running an AVR...

I've done the comparison with 2 high end AVR's now and there is a major difference.

My comments were based on my (and others with keen piano player ears too in several instances) experience in comparing AVRs/Amps using music CDs via analog connections with high end players and speakers including the 802D, S8 and Thiel. I am sure if sound processing other than amplification are at play, they would have colored the sound and yielded different results.

Extra power can bring speakers to life if it is needed but not at low volume where the amp in question is no where near, at say 10% of its rated power limit. It wouldn't make any sense from engineering and science stand points. It is not just paper specs, I do know the theories behind amps. I guess we may define low volume differently so it is hard to say whether we actually disagree or not.

I know this is off the topic, but just a couple of interesting facts about reviews:

- I just read a Stereophile review on a Rotel amp. The reviewer claimed that at high volume the Rotel amp brought the speakers to life but at low volume he did not like how the Rotel sound. Go figure, I thought it was the speakers making the sound! After being years in this hobby I still feel the need for a jargon dictionary in order to have a fighting chance to understand some of those reviews. And I mean the non technical part.

- British reviewers (see WhatHiFi, Home Cinema, HiFi News etc.) regularly rate Yamaha, Denon and other NA AVRs higher than their Rotel and NAD counterparts. Arcam is the only product that they ranked top most of the time. In NA, the opposite tends to be true more often than not. Why? We can all take a guess.

Hi-fi amps are designed and built to reproduce sound faithfully. In order to achieve their main goal of being faithful to the recordings, as long as they are operating within their limits they really need to sound pretty much the same instead of being majorly different.

I have no idea how (level matched, bypassed all SP, AB with another person doing the switching etc.) you compare your Rotel and Arcam AVRs and I have never listened to any Rotel AVR. My experience with the Arcam AVR300 was so good that I doubt there was anything better, but then I found my Denon sounding just as good. When I say they sound good I mean they sound like what I (by memory) heard in concert halls, only to a degree though.

By the way, I am sorry I got you mixed up with CraigV in another thread so let me repeat my question here. Do you believe your Arcam can power your 802 adequately? I know nothing about the 802 but if they are anything like my dream speaker 802D then I really think you need to add an external amp. In fact, the 802 could also be one of the reasons why you get different results from your AVRs.

 

[PENG]

I think the XPA-2 is a better option for you, but the XPA-3 would still be better than running you speakers through an AVR..

Amazingly we actually said almost the same thing this time!

 

[cfrizz]

My order of preference would be Rotel, XPA-3. The Rotel is 200wpc @8ohms.

Rotel makes outstanding reliable gear. Too bad they don't still make a 3 channel amp.

Ok...so here is my final question...I don't think I can justify spending the $$$ on a d-sonic (they are in Houston actually so I would have to pay tax making nearly the same cost as Wyred which are slightly better) no matter how much I would like it...so which would you choose?? I can get a used (Audiogon) Rotel RB-1080 for $575 (200 watts x 2) or a new Emo XPA-3 (250 x 2) for $599....Any thoughts???

 

[Chopin_Guy]

If you really like Polkaudio products, you would gain more by switching to a pair of LSi9 plus a subwoofer.

I was actually considering this or even possibly going with the floorstanding LSi's instead...not sure, but the amp will be the first step really. I could easily sell all my RTi's to fund that as I will only be doing 2 channel once I move. I would like to have a competent amp no matter what speakers I have such that it will be a worth while purchase, and can in turn power any speakers that I might get anywhere down the road...

I am still on the fence of spending alot more on a better multi-channel amp or nice two channel amp. I can get a Sunfire TGA-5200 for $1,500 or the D-Sonic ICE 250 watt x 2 for $1290...also lots of options in the used market as I have seen several Parasound Halo A26 (I think that is right...the 250 wt. x 2 amp) one is on Ebay now for $1,390....

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Those ICEpower amps produce a lot of power.

The 250W amp actually produces about 330W/8ohms & 625W/4ohms @ the typical 1% THD Power rating.

And since it is 80% efficient and generates a lot LESS heat, I would think they may be even more reliable than most amps.

I'm really thinking of getting the D-Sonic 525W/8ohm x 5Ch amp (which translates to 600W/8 ohm, 1200W/4ohm, & 1500W/2ohm @ 1% THD)!

For $1575, you could get a brand new 525W/8ohm x 2Ch amp w/ 3 yrs warranty!

 

[Warpdrv]

Just a heads up on the comparo,

The Wyred4Sound amp seems to have a little better/lower noise floor when sitting idle then the D-Sonic...

Both are great sounding amps, I do prefer the Wyred by a very small margin...

I have a feeling that I'm getting a tiny bit of noise out of my pioneer receiver that is transferring through to the amp... When I get my new Preamp, I will be comparing them again to see what I find. I'm at a limitation with some poor equipment at this point to do real evaluation though...

 

[mtrycrafts]

That's good to know too because for my current needs anything much past 80dB at a distance of 10' from the speakers is obscene.

Well, I don't know about that. 30Hz and 80dB is hardly noticeable I'd like a good 105 dB to get my attention

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Just a heads up on the comparo,

The Wyred4Sound amp seems to have a little better/lower noise floor when sitting idle then the D-Sonic...

Both are great sounding amps, I do prefer the Wyred by a very small margin...

I have a feeling that I'm getting a tiny bit of noise out of my pioneer receiver that is transferring through to the amp... When I get my new Preamp, I will be comparing them again to see what I find. I'm at a limitation with some poor equipment at this point to do real evaluation though...

It seems like most people are saying that the preamps/pre-pros are causing the "hissing" noise. When the preamps/pre-pros/receivers are turned OFF, the "hissing" noise stops completely (while the amp is still ON).

I've had this same issue with my preamps in the past.

 

[rumble]

Two Behringer A500's bridged, each amp drives one speaker. That should make them sing pretty good. No fan on these either, completely silent.

 

[Warpdrv]

It seems like most people are saying that the preamps/pre-pros are causing the "hissing" noise. When the preamps/pre-pros/receivers are turned OFF, the "hissing" noise stops completely (while the amp is still ON).

I've had this same issue with my preamps in the past.

I have swapped both of my amps (wyred & d-sonic) between my individual systems and found one of my receivers doesn't introduce noise where the other does... Both are pretty much identical... Pioneer Elite 81 & Elite 82

On the system with no buzzing (swapping amps) the Wyred amp offers the most silent handover of signal to the speakers with no additional artifacts brought forward.

When I get my Anthem D2v, I will offer more further testing info up..... Looks like I will have to wait a few weeks as shipments have been delayed...

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I have swapped both of my amps (wyred & d-sonic) between my individual systems and found one of my receivers doesn't introduce noise where the other does... Both are pretty much identical... Pioneer Elite 81 & Elite 82

On the system with no buzzing (swapping amps) the Wyred amp offers the most silent handover of signal to the speakers with no additional artifacts brought forward.

When I get my Anthem D2v, I will offer more further testing info up..... Looks like I will have to wait a few weeks as shipments have been delayed...

So using the exact same receiver as the preamp, the Wyred amp produced LESS noise than the D-Sonic?

 

[Verdinut]

Is someone looking for a good 2-channel external power amp?

There is a brand new QSC Digital Cinema Amplifier, Model DCA1622, which retails for close to US$1000, being offered for US$599 only. That amp has a power rating of 300w/ch @ 8 ohms and 500w/ch for a 4 ohm load.

That DCA line of amplifiers is used in most if not all Cineplexes across North America. I own three DCA1222s which have ratings of 200w/ch at 8 ohms and 325w/ch at 4 ohms. Their performance is flawless with transparent and neutral sound and they provide the demanding bass punch as required by some movie soundtracks. They also can drive speakers with impedances as low as 2 ohms. They are THX certified and built in the United States:

https://www.qsc.com/cinema/products/power-amplifiers/dca-series/dca-1622/

I recommend that line of power amps without any reservation. Should you need a good 2 channel or 4 channel power amp, I suggest that you verify those products. They are not available at most pro audio shops, but you can purchase them from Socalcinetech in California and QSC can provide you with names of distributors as well.

At the above discounted price, and the possibility of negociating a lower price, this is a bargain to jump on while it's still available.