Exiting HTIB world, entering REAL world... need help prioritizing!

[colbymartin]

okay, so here's the deal...

over five years ago, the wife and and i purchased our first home theater: a good old fashion onkyo HTIB (*gasp!*) for just over $400... can't remember the specific model off hand... however the receiver does not have any HDMI inputs, (digital optical, yes) and surely it doesn't have the processing goodness for all the new blu-ray codecs... so i don't feel like i'm maximizing the blu-ray potential (i hear the "Duh!" now...)

this system has served us fine over the years, but now that we've upgraded to 42" LCD, and a PS3 for blu-ray, the sound quality has got to step it up too!

so, for the first time, i'm entering the world of home theater, "non-HTIB-style"

after some research, here's what i think i'd like to do:
receiver: yamaha rx-v663, approx $360
front L&R: 2 factory outlet axioim m2's, $266 for pair
center: factory axiom vp100, $230
rear surround: eh, for now, i'll probably just keep the onkyo one's i've got hung, and figure out something else later.

however, i'm in a situation where i'll have some cash flow soon (approx $350), and then maybe some more like 6-9 months down the road.

i'd like to make the most impact now, but i'm not sure which option is best... so i need your help.

option 1) purchase the yamaha receiver now, and use existing onkyo speakers for 6-9 months

option 2) purchase center speaker (axiom vp100) now, put extra $120 towards the later purchase of M2's, and get the receiver down the road

option 3) purchase the two M2's first, put other $90 towards the VP100 for later

so, in conclusion, which option/purchase do you think will make the most immediate/noticable difference? (it's easier to justify to the wife when even she goes, "oh wow, that does sound better!).

receiver?
center speakers?
front L& R speakers?

or am i just approaching this all wrong anyways...

your direction and experience would be much obliged...

colby

 

[lsiberian]

okay, so here's the deal...

over five years ago, the wife and and i purchased our first home theater: a good old fashion onkyo HTIB (*gasp!*) for just over $400... can't remember the specific model off hand... however the receiver does not have any HDMI inputs, (digital optical, yes) and surely it doesn't have the processing goodness for all the new blu-ray codecs... so i don't feel like i'm maximizing the blu-ray potential (i hear the "Duh!" now...)

this system has served us fine over the years, but now that we've upgraded to 42" LCD, and a PS3 for blu-ray, the sound quality has got to step it up too!

so, for the first time, i'm entering the world of home theater, "non-HTIB-style"

after some research, here's what i think i'd like to do:
receiver: yamaha rx-v663, approx $360
front L&R: 2 factory outlet axioim m2's, $266 for pair
center: factory axiom vp100, $230
rear surround: eh, for now, i'll probably just keep the onkyo one's i've got hung, and figure out something else later.

however, i'm in a situation where i'll have some cash flow soon (approx $350), and then maybe some more like 6-9 months down the road.

i'd like to make the most impact now, but i'm not sure which option is best... so i need your help.

option 1) purchase the yamaha receiver now, and use existing onkyo speakers for 6-9 months

option 2) purchase center speaker (axiom vp100) now, put extra $120 towards the later purchase of M2's, and get the receiver down the road

option 3) purchase the two M2's first, put other $90 towards the VP100 for later

so, in conclusion, which option/purchase do you think will make the most immediate/noticable difference? (it's easier to justify to the wife when even she goes, "oh wow, that does sound better!).

receiver?
center speakers?
front L& R speakers?

or am i just approaching this all wrong anyways...

your direction and experience would be much obliged...

colby

Honestly you are approaching this all wrong.

1. Receivers are not the first thing to pick out or upgrade IMO. In fact I put them last on the list. Even if you have a HTIB receiver. Onkyo makes fairly good amps and receivers so I'm betting it can do the job for mid-fi speakers for now.

If you want to build a home theater it needs to start with research.

1. Find or build(preferably) a subwoofer that meets your requirements. Home theaters are all about LFE. It's the vibration of the room that makes a theater great.

2. Pick out your front sound stage. For this I suggest you find the most neutral speakers possible. Do 2-way speakers not towers. You can get a pair of subs to use for the LFE duty. I suggest maybe a pair of 10" SVS subs to do your lower LFE duty.

3. Build a surround sound field. This is acheived by good speakers/room interaction and the options are many.

4. Add subs

5. Improve the room.

6. Upgrade receiver to a much better option.


Don't buy into gimmicks any longer. Unless you know what something means and have seen it make a difference then don't believe it.

HD audio and many other technologies are gimmickry.

Sound starts with the speakers and room.

Everything else is less important.

Also don't buy any cable that cost more than 10 dollars unless we specifically recommend it for some odd reason.

Many ask for budget. I refuse. You are a smart person and you know what the word save means. If you save well you can buy any speakers you want on most budgets.

 

[fredk]

I pretty much agree with lsiberian. I would probably get the mains first then a sub, but thats just me. Either way, a good sub is integral to the HT experience.

By the way, if you can, a third M2 would work better for a center. I'm actually using dual M2s for centers in my setup: one above and one below the display.

 

[colbymartin]

holy smokes... these forums actually work!
i guess i was a bit skeptical, seeing as how it was my first post...
thanks for proving me wrong, fellas (or fel-ladies!?)

i guess it's overwhelming clear that the receiver should be a last (if at all?) priority right now... which is super helpful to me.
i'm very glad i didn't "jump" on any excitement over "finding" a great receiver.

Isiberian: thanks for your perspective... i'm definitely starting with the "research..." i know i don't have a lot to spend, but i'd still rather spend it "right," ya know? it's refreshing to hear someone say that much of the HD audio talk and other technologies are "gimmicky." that's the last thing i want to throw my money at, is all talk and no walk. i'm not sure i can do much about the actual "room," kinda limited to how the wife wants it laid out and decorated... but your "order" of attack is helpful.
and i learned a while ago (still probably a little too late) about not over paying for cables... that one still amazes me!!

i'm also surprised (which i'm sure is no surprise to you all...) to hear how important the sub is to a good system. i would've assumed (well, i guess i HAVE assumed) that most subs are relatively the same and don't add/subtract much to the overall sound quality (within reason... yes, i know there are JUNKY subs out there...). my onkyo setup has a sub that i would consider decent and/or good, of course it's the only one i've ever had, so that doesn't say much...

based on your guys thoughts, i need to put a sub in my priority order before the receiver, yes?

maybe i'll go something like:
1) 2 axiom m2's
2) the vp100 center speaker (or another m2? this is two people now who have suggested doing that instead of the vp100... interesting, i wouldn't have expected that... isn't a "center channel" speaker designed differently.. specifcally for the job of being the center?)
3) a sub (what would be the price range i should be expecting.. knowing the price range i'm going for with the m2's and vp100??)
4) receiver
5) surround speaker replacements

thanks guys... super helpful!

p.s. i know axiom has the 30 day return policy... do you guys know if there are ANY retail places that carry them, so you COULD potentially hear them before you buy?

 

[John Bailey]

p.s. i know axiom has the 30 day return policy... do you guys know if there are ANY retail places that carry them, so you COULD potentially hear them before you buy?

I don't think you'll find a retail outlet, but if you contact Axiom, they have customers who have volunteered to allow folks to come have a listen in their homes.

John

 

[Sounds Good]

i dont know if i would call hd radio and things like that gimmick...

more like a plus... the reason i say that is because your not going to find to receivers exactly the same one with hd and one without.... (i just researched receivers) for example... the onkyo 806 compared to the next highest with hd radio ; 876... not only do you get hd radio but there is a ton of other extras... so to say dont pay extra for gimmicks.. i dont think i would say that...

personally, i would say since your whole reason for upgrading is for the extra BD features... i would get the new receiver first so you can enjoy your new tv and blurays... then do like the others have said and save save save and work on your sounds stage....

 

[ack_bak]

Good advice in here. I think lsiberian touched on a few key points, at least from my perspective.

I would recommend upgrading your front speakers first as well and waiting to buy the receiver. I think the Axiom speakers you mention sound like a great start. And as lsiberian mentioned subwoofers are a huge part of that front soundstage. I would start with one subwoofer and then decide if you want to add a second down the road. Have you heard of Elemental Designs? Honestly, I am not sure how big your room is, but if you picked up one of these:
http://www.edesignaudio.com/product_info.php?cPath=2_41&products_id=407

It would make a huge difference. I researched subs for over a month and I purchased the one above based on reviews and pricing and it made a hug difference in my room. Trust me, that sub is more than enough to provide bass for a small to medium sized room (my room is approx 15x17). Two would be more than enough for a large room.

I think you would be smart to keep the Onkyo surrounds for now and focus squarely on the front 3 speakers along with your sub. Not sure what your budget it, but I just picked up 3 SVS SCS-01 speakers for my fronts and they sound amazing (total bill came to about $558 shipped for all three speakers). You could save some money and get SBS fronts with an SCS center. Also look into HSU and Emotiva. I think that eD sub with any of the above speakers would be a huge improvement over what you have now, and if you wait until later in the year you can probably score a great receiver for an even better price.

 

[lsiberian]

i dont know if i would call hd radio and things like that gimmick...

more like a plus... the reason i say that is because your not going to find to receivers exactly the same one with hd and one without.... (i just researched receivers) for example... the onkyo 806 compared to the next highest with hd radio ; 876... not only do you get hd radio but there is a ton of other extras... so to say dont pay extra for gimmicks.. i dont think i would say that...

personally, i would say since your whole reason for upgrading is for the extra BD features... i would get the new receiver first so you can enjoy your new tv and blurays... then do like the others have said and save save save and work on your sounds stage....

I must suggest new glasses. We are talking about HD Audio not HD radio.

Anyway. I can't ever suggest a receiver first approach unless you have no receiver period. Speakers will always make the sound. They are the most important feature a system has.

This guy isn't even in a price bracket for either 800 series Onkyo receiver. And such receivers are wasted on bad speakers.

I know many of us like bells and whistles, but speakers first. Then add the bells and Whistles.

Besides Onkyo doesn't make bad receivers. Even the HTIB probably has a decent 5.1 receiver.

 

[lsiberian]

Good advice in here. I think lsiberian touched on a few key points, at least from my perspective.

I would recommend upgrading your front speakers first as well and waiting to buy the receiver. I think the Axiom speakers you mention sound like a great start. And as lsiberian mentioned subwoofers are a huge part of that front soundstage. I would start with one subwoofer and then decide if you want to add a second down the road. Have you heard of Elemental Designs? Honestly, I am not sure how big your room is, but if you picked up one of these:
http://www.edesignaudio.com/product_info.php?cPath=2_41&products_id=407

It would make a huge difference. I researched subs for over a month and I purchased the one above based on reviews and pricing and it made a hug difference in my room. Trust me, that sub is more than enough to provide bass for a small to medium sized room (my room is approx 15x17). Two would be more than enough for a large room.

I think you would be smart to keep the Onkyo surrounds for now and focus squarely on the front 3 speakers along with your sub. Not sure what your budget it, but I just picked up 3 SVS SCS-01 speakers for my fronts and they sound amazing (total bill came to about $558 shipped for all three speakers). You could save some money and get SBS fronts with an SCS center. Also look into HSU and Emotiva. I think that eD sub with any of the above speakers would be a huge improvement over what you have now, and if you wait until later in the year you can probably score a great receiver for an even better price.

I agree SVS makes good speakers. The only problem is that he has a wife to consider and the matching surrounds might not meet with her approval.

Also I believe they are ported enclosures. That type of enclosure is more difficult to place IMO.

I suggest you look for sealed options.

 

[ack_bak]

I agree SVS makes good speakers. The only problem is that he has a wife to consider and the matching surrounds might not meet with her approval.

Also I believe they are ported enclosures. That type of enclosure is more difficult to place IMO.

I suggest you look for sealed options.

SVS speakers are sealed I was talking strictly as front speakers and then using the existing Onkyo surrounds until he can buy something better. I am using RBH 815 in-ceiling speakers as my surrounds and they sound great with the SVS fronts. I know THX recommends trying to match surrounds with your fronts, but I have found that surrounds are more forgiving, and a company like SVS will actually tell you what other speakers work well with theirs as surrounds.

The SVS SBS speakers are much smaller and more WAF friendly than the SCS-01 speakers and I would think they would look and sound great paired with SCS fronts.

 

[lsiberian]

SVS speakers are sealed I was talking strictly as front speakers and then using the existing Onkyo surrounds until he can buy something better. I am using RBH 815 in-ceiling speakers as my surrounds and they sound great with the SVS fronts. I know THX recommends trying to match surrounds with your fronts, but I have found that surrounds are more forgiving, and a company like SVS will actually tell you what other speakers work well with theirs as surrounds.

The SVS SBS speakers are much smaller and more WAF friendly than the SCS-01 speakers and I would think they would look and sound great paired with SCS fronts.

I hadn't realized they where sealed. Getting a package with a couple of 10 inch subs to use as the LR stands would be nice.

If I where buying I would get 3 KEF iQ1s. Coaxials make me happy.

 

[just listening]

I've also heard good things about the Elemental Design subs.

The one thing that seems to be forgotten is the quality of the center channel. So much information goes thru that one speakers, yet too many designs let it be just an afterthought. I suggest reading an article I saw in the current issue of AffordableAudio about a large DIY center that fits under the TV.

 

[lsiberian]

I've also heard good things about the Elemental Design subs.

The one thing that seems to be forgotten is the quality of the center channel. So much information goes thru that one speakers, yet too many designs let it be just an afterthought. I suggest reading an article I saw in the current issue of AffordableAudio about a large DIY center that fits under the TV.

The center channel should be identical to the LR channels for the best sound stage.

Yes many center channel designs are poor.

A good center is usually a coaxial or a tweeter above the midrange(example: Beta 360)

 

[ack_bak]

I've also heard good things about the Elemental Design subs.

The one thing that seems to be forgotten is the quality of the center channel. So much information goes thru that one speakers, yet too many designs let it be just an afterthought. I suggest reading an article I saw in the current issue of AffordableAudio about a large DIY center that fits under the TV.

You are spot on regarding the center channel. The SVS SCS01 center is a significant improvement over the Polk csi30 center that I previously owned (and it was cheaper) Dialogue is much more audible and clean vs the Polk speaker. I would not skimp on a center channel. Many TV shows and movies just have poor mixes and I think many people that skimp on a weak or unmatched center will be missing out.

 

[just listening]

The center channel should be identical to the LR channels for the best sound stage.

Yes many center channel designs are poor.

A good center is usually a coaxial or a tweeter above the midrange(example: Beta 360)

I'm going to respectfully say "sort of". The top speaker manufacturers in Canada both (Totem and Paradigm) developed center channels with more drivers (though they are the same driver models as the fronts). This is due to their belief that the center channel information requires more push to be heard above the fronts, sides, and rear speakers. Most HT receivers do not boost the center driver enough via the center volume to make up the difference. Thus, the need for multiple drivers to properly fill the room.

 

[agarwalro]

maybe i'll go something like:
1) 2 axiom m2's
2) the vp100 center speaker (or another m2? this is two people now who have suggested doing that instead of the vp100... interesting, i wouldn't have expected that... isn't a "center channel" speaker designed differently.. specifcally for the job of being the center?)
3) a sub (what would be the price range i should be expecting.. knowing the price range i'm going for with the m2's and vp100??)
4) receiver
5) surround speaker replacements

Folks in posts above have given great advise.

You cannot go wrong with the SVS SB-1 or the Axiom M2.

For front stage to be 100% seamless, for when sound pans from one side to the other, you cannot get better than the same speaker for all three channels.

I did not see any mention of your room size. Don't go 7.1 unless you have a room big enough for it, stick to 5.1 or 5.2. If it is a fairly sizable room, the SB-1's are supposed to play pretty loud but I have no knowledge of what the M2's can do. Combined with a good sub like the SVS PB-10NSD, the sound will blow any HTIB out of the water and probably blow the water out with it .

You dont necessarily need a HDMI receiver since the PS3 decodes the HD Audio formats and outputs them via the optical connection. Since the Onkyo receiver has Optical in, you are good for now.

Maybe you can do this, (not necessarily endorsing SB-1's, just using it as an example , the PB-10NSD sub on the other hand needs no introduction on AV forums)

1) Get 2 SVS SB-1's for Mains (continue to use Onkyo speakers for other channels)
2) Add a SB-1 for Center
3) Add a PB-10NSD
4) Add 2 SB-1's for surrounds
5) Add a PB-10NSD (if room is big)
6) Upgrade receiver to one with all the features you need/ want

Both Axiom and SVS have great customer service and work with their potential customers. See if they will give you a package deal but let you stagger the purchase.

 

[lsiberian]

I'm going to respectfully say "sort of". The top speaker manufacturers in Canada both (Totem and Paradigm) developed center channels with more drivers (though they are the same driver models as the fronts). This is due to their belief that the center channel information requires more push to be heard above the fronts, sides, and rear speakers. Most HT receivers do not boost the center driver enough via the center volume to make up the difference. Thus, the need for multiple drivers to properly fill the room.

If you need more center volume you can always boost the center in your receiver.

Paradigm centers are very well designed, but a vertical speaker of equal construction will still outperform it. How many drivers depends on the drivers used. A Loki Seas driver can easily fill a room. If you want a bit more you can 2.5 it. The driver is very capable in the right enclosures.

 

[Scarriere]

"You dont necessarily need a HDMI receiver since the PS3 decodes the HD Audio formats and outputs them via the optical connection. Since the Onkyo receiver has Optical in, you are good for now."

I believe this is incorrect. The PS3 does decode the HD Audio formats, but they are passed only through HDMI.

 

[ack_bak]

"You dont necessarily need a HDMI receiver since the PS3 decodes the HD Audio formats and outputs them via the optical connection. Since the Onkyo receiver has Optical in, you are good for now."

I believe this is incorrect. The PS3 does decode the HD Audio formats, but they are passed only through HDMI.

Yes. You have to have an HDMI receiver that can carry audio over HDMI (you don't need an HDMI 1.3 receiver though) for the PS3. If you are using an optical cable you can only get lossy (DTS/Dolby Digital) although it will almost always be at a higher bitrate than DVD. Lossy on Blu-Ray is typically 1.5mbps for DTS and 640kbps for Dolby Digital. Which is a noticeable improvement over typical DVD encodes which are 768kbps for DTS and 448kbps for Dolby.

IMHO, the lossy codecs would probably sound better over a legacy receiver with good speakers than lossles codecs over a new receiver with worse speakers. Ideally, you would want both, but I would upgrade speakers first and receiver second.

 

[ack_bak]

If you need more center volume you can always boost the center in your receiver.

Yes you can, but I tried everything with my Polk center speaker and I could never get it to sound as audible and clear as I would have liked. There is alway going to be a limitation if your speaker is the weak link. The SVS center is a noticeable improvement over the Polk, and as a plus I no longer have to boost the center volume.