Exiting HTIB world, entering REAL world... need help prioritizing!

[jostenmeat]

and i learned a while ago (still probably a little too late) about not over paying for cables... that one still amazes me!!

I submit that paying more than $2 per foot for HDMI or 25 cents per foot for speaker wire is paying more than you need to.

2) the vp100 center speaker (or another m2? this is two people now who have suggested doing that instead of the vp100... interesting, i wouldn't have expected that... isn't a "center channel" speaker designed differently.. specifcally for the job of being the center?)

Yes, but for an entirely different reason than you're thinking. The "center channel" is designed differently, but with the compromise of being built horizontally for purely aesthetic reasons. Unfortunately, this horizontal compromise has become so ubiquitous that people now mistake it as the ideal. It's very far from it. Vertically arrayed drivers are best.

The best possible match for your center speaker is the one that is identical to your mains. Period. This would be a little dream come true for me, but my enormous, non-acoustically-transparent screen negates the possibility. Icing on the cake would be to have them on the same plane. A little cherry on top would perhaps be to have them equidistant.

What's nice about ID brands, perhaps like Axiom, is that buying an individual speaker is often feasible, unlike with B&M brands where you have to buy a pair and are stuck with an unused extra speaker.

The nice thing about coaxial particularly for the horizontal center speaker is so that it doesn't suffer lobing that occurs with 99.9% of all other center speakers made. Isiberian mentioned the top mounted tweeter, and yes, the idea is that vertically arrayed drivers are best.

What is lobing in a center speaker? When you have redundant drivers playing the same frequencies, something bad happens when you are off-axis to it. The differing distances of the two drivers to your ears means that the freq's are overlapping each other in an asymmetrical fashion. You suffer unwanted boosts and cancellations, and since often it's the mid-drivers that are redundant, horizontally, these issues are happening within the dialogue passband.

So, a horizontal MTM speaker CAN be a bit better designed (oxymoron?) if the redundant drivers are closer together, and the xover point between tweeter and said woofers is lower. The first is so that differing distances are reduced when off-axis, and the second is so that any lobing freq's occur further away from the dialogue passband.

So, with a top mounted tweeter, or coaxial tweet/mid, at least the lobing can occur much lower between "woofers". Of course, with a vertically arrayed bookshelf/tower, this is absolutely a non-issue.

The great thing is that often the "identical" speaker is more affordable than, ahem cough cough, the "specially designed" center speaker.

More on center speakers...
http://www.audioholics.com/education/loudspeaker-basics/vertical-vs-horizontal-speaker-designs

 

[fredk]

Then add the bells and Whistles.

Skip the whistles. I hate whistles!

 

[ack_bak]

More on center speakers...
http://www.audioholics.com/education/loudspeaker-basics/vertical-vs-horizontal-speaker-designs

Excellent post (I did not quote the whole thing) and thanks for the link. Pretty informative stuff here.

 

[fredk]

2) the vp100 center speaker (or another m2? this is two people now who have suggested doing that instead of the vp100... interesting, i wouldn't have expected that... isn't a "center channel" speaker designed differently.. specifcally for the job of being the center?)

As others have posted, there are technical adavantages to having a matching center.

The biggest reason I see to going with an matching center for your setup is that it will be half the price.

Some numbers:

M2 fronts +vp100 = 551
M2* 3 = 444

You could even upgrade your fronts to the M3

M3*2 = 507

Matching l/r/c is just more cost effective with no performance penalty.

 

[just listening]

As others have posted, there are technical adavantages to having a matching center.

The biggest reason I see to going with an matching center for your setup is that it will be half the price.

Some numbers:

M2 fronts +vp100 = 551
M2* 3 = 444

You could even upgrade your fronts to the M3

M3*2 = 507

Matching l/r/c is just more cost effective with no performance penalty.

Fair points and thanks for listing it. In the end it comes down to at what point will you draw the line between quality of sound vs. $$ spent. That is a decision that each hobbyist needs to draw for themselves. To me, I will almost always lean towards spending a bit more to get the best possible sound, i.e. a dedicated center channel. IMHO, a dedicated center design of MTM adds a good 20-25% to my listening experience over just another 2-way as long as the crossover design is properly implemented so that the lobing is mentioned above is a non-issue.

 

[lsiberian]

Fair points and thanks for listing it. In the end it comes down to at what point will you draw the line between quality of sound vs. $$ spent. That is a decision that each hobbyist needs to draw for themselves. To me, I will almost always lean towards spending a bit more to get the best possible sound, i.e. a dedicated center channel. IMHO, a dedicated center design of MTM adds a good 20-25% to my listening experience over just another 2-way as long as the crossover design is properly implemented so that the lobing is mentioned above is a non-issue.

I'm unfamiliar with how one would design a crossover to eliminate lobing in a horizontal design. Please share.

 

[fredk]

Fair points and thanks for listing it.

You miss the point. There is no quality trade off as using a matching speaker (eg: M2) as a center will give you the same OR BETTER sound quality than the hoizontal center (VP100).

IF the M2 fits physically, there is no downside and, in fact, the OP could upgrade to the M3 - a further improvement in sound quality - for the same money as the M2s + VP100.

Hope this makes sense.

 

[ack_bak]

You miss the point. There is no quality trade off as using a matching speaker (eg: M2) as a center will give you the same OR BETTER sound quality than the hoizontal center (VP100).

IF the M2 fits physically, there is no downside and, in fact, the OP could upgrade to the M3 - a further improvement in sound quality - for the same money as the M2s + VP100.

Hope this makes sense.

jostenmeat's excellent post and link was very informative. It appears that there can be more upside than downside to using the same left/right speaker vs the traditional center speaker. So I do agree with you. And you can save some money as you mentioned.

But it really depends on your ability to place a speaker vertically vs horizontally. Many cabinets, etc don't allow for such speaker types.

 

[just listening]

I'm unfamiliar with how one would design a crossover to eliminate lobing in a horizontal design. Please share.

I was referring to overall sound reproduction, my apologies it was poorly stated.

But, I will say that the work of so many manufacturers of note in higher end speakers than Axiom that use MTM center channel leads me to believe that the benefits of their design outweigh the lobing issue. I'll put this two some friends who have direct contacts with quality manufacturers and see what they have to say.

Interesting discussion everyone.

 

[Patrick_Wolf]

jostenmeat's excellent post and link was very informative. It appears that there can be more upside than downside to using the same left/right speaker vs the traditional center speaker. So I do agree with you. And you can save some money as you mentioned.

But it really depends on your ability to place a speaker vertically vs horizontally. Many cabinets, etc don't allow for such speaker types.

I wonder if placing the bookshelf speaker horizontally would be better than using the typical MTM center.

I don't recall this article mentioning such a thing.

 

[fredk]

Excellent link Patrick. I was too lazy to go searching.

 

[lsiberian]

I was referring to overall sound reproduction, my apologies it was poorly stated.

But, I will say that the work of so many manufacturers of note in higher end speakers than Axiom that use MTM center channel leads me to believe that the benefits of their design outweigh the lobing issue. I'll put this two some friends who have direct contacts with quality manufacturers and see what they have to say.

Interesting discussion everyone.

It's already been stated that such uses are for purely aesthetic reasons. And this is fact. Yes a Center can be a very good speakers. For example the Kef IQ 6 presents a great center channel option.

To better understand this I want you to think about how a tweeter behaves compared to a midrange woofer. You will soon discover that lobing is a huge problem as you study the issue. In fact rarely does anyone recommend horizontal driver alignment because of the issues with it for a speaker design.

I believe for multiple reasons that a high quality coaxial provides the ideal solution for center channels sonically speaking.
1. the delay between tweeter and midrange is signficantly reduced making lobing a non issue.
2. I've seen such an example used and recommended by this forums very good speaker designers.
3. The tweeter acts as a waveguide for the center channel reducing it's interference with the LR speakers. Of course this same issue can be a weakness in the LR channels

 

[just listening]

If there is one thing I've learned in 30+ years of audio is that there is more than one way to execute terrific sound. Ideas and designs that would seem to cause poor sound actually do quite the opposite.

For example, Line Source speakers when designed properly offer outrageous sound. I've had the pleasure of hearing Danny Richie's line source designs at RMAF, "lobing" is not an issue.

 

[lsiberian]

If there is one thing I've learned in 30+ years of audio is that there is more than one way to execute terrific sound. Ideas and designs that would seem to cause poor sound actually do quite the opposite.

For example, Line Source speakers when designed properly offer outrageous sound. I've had the pleasure of hearing Danny Richie's line source designs at RMAF, "lobing" is not an issue.

I suppose the goal there is to increase the volume to crazy levels.

I prefer accuracy over volume. But I suppose if I got 10 drivers I could have some fun. It would be an excuse for buying more drivers. I'm starting to like this guy. Inspires me to buy more drivers.

 

[just listening]

The line source example wasn't about being loud, it was about a great listening experience. I don't listen above 90db, and 95% of listening is done at no greater than 80db to be honest.

Funny thing about this discussion is that I enjoy 2-way monitors far more than multiple driver floorstanders.

 

[colbymartin]

original poster here, checking back in.
thanks everyone for all your extremely helpful insight!
who knew i could glean this much information from a simple question (okay, the question wasn't that simple, but my point remains).

after reading everything and processing it more, here's where i'm at regarding priority and purchasing plan:

1) get 2 Axiom M2's for L&R, unplug my current onkyo center speaker and set my receiver to 4 speakers and sub
2) when cashflow resumes, purchase a 3rd M2 for the center channel (there just seems to be too many of you recommending this course of action for me to ignore, not to mention the $100 in savings over buying a center channel vp100... never would have thought about this before, so thanks guys)
3) save for a new sub (also a new strategy i'm implementing thanks to this thread)
4) get a new receiver to take advantage of HDMI in/out for bluray viewing via PS3
5) replace surround rear speakers

brilliant.
i like this plan... i do have to talk to my wife about the prospect of putting 3 M2's accross the top of our entertainment system. physically i have the space, aesthetically? mmmm...
i'm fascinated by the information regarding the center speaker. i read the article that patrick posted, and its crazy how a horizontal alignment actually works against the sound quality?
one thing i'm wondering (which i didn't see in the article) was if you could take a vertical bookshelf speaker (my 3rd M2) and lay it sideways for the center?

reason being, we have a shelf space for the center speaker, and this would fly aesthetically better than 3 across the top, but would it defeat the "3 matching speakers" concept?
i'll try and upload a picture of my setup so you can see what im saying.
also, if we do have to put the center speaker up top and keep it vertical, it's probably a good 16-18 inches ABOVE the listeners head when it's on top the entertainment center... will this be an issue?? should i try and angle it downward?
also, measured our room: 16' wide by 12' deep.. so it's not large by any means.

here's my current setup

 

[Davemcc]

From any sound quality perspective, you're screwed by having everything shoved into that cubbyhole. Maybe there's an altenative arrangement you can consider?

Look up boundary interaction.

 

[colbymartin]

touche, however i don't think the picture does the setup justice...
the speakers are pretty much flush with the end of the recessed wall, if thats what you're referring to...
but you're right, its probably not ideal, but don't really have another choice...

 

[ack_bak]

touche, however i don't think the picture does the setup justice...
the speakers are pretty much flush with the end of the recessed wall, if thats what you're referring to...
but you're right, its probably not ideal, but don't really have another choice...

Colby,

That picture may be playing optical games with us I would ensure that the speakers are flush with the wall, even if that means pulling that entertainment center out a few more inches. I would also be careful getting a rear ported speaker. You may want to look for sealed speakers. That cubby may do some weird things with a rear ported speaker.

 

[jostenmeat]

But, I will say that the work of so many manufacturers of note in higher end speakers than Axiom that use MTM center channel leads me to believe that the benefits of their design outweigh the lobing issue. I'll put this two some friends who have direct contacts with quality manufacturers and see what they have to say.

Among their better offerings, B&W uses WTMW and so does Revel. KEF uses coaxial, as does JTR. Obviously, with a top mounted tweeter, the speaker will be taller. For implementation of a better horizontal center design with very limited vertical space, KEF makes the shortest that I have seen.

The funny thing is that even the marketing for BW will show photos of the, *ahem*, "specially" designed center. This photo here is somewhat ludicrous, IMO. No reason to not use identical speaker. The photo/marketing people are probably just thinking what everyone else is thinking. "Oh, right, we need that specially designed center speaker". At least it does have a top mounted tweeter.

Otherwise, I think I have seen it said that the horiz MTM will reduce floor and ceiling bounce. So it's plausible that if you sit only front and center, that a horiz mtm might* be a superior thing. Then of course, for others, only over their dead body. Always a yin for the yang. Don't be confused though, a horiz MTM does have issues with accurate horiz dispersion. Period.

I'd like to repeat that the horiz mtm can be better designed if the mid drivers are closer and xover point lowered, but I don't know of any speaker mftr that really aims for this. I've asked the question before, even here, and I got zero responses. Anyhoo . . .

I wonder if placing the bookshelf speaker horizontally would be better than using the typical MTM center.

In one sense, yes, because lobing will be much reduced overall, and will only occur at and around the xover. The one thing you have to now consider is if there is any directional waveguide, diffuser, or something that is intentionally meant for a vertical orientation. Some excellent manufacturers simply rotate their waveguide 90 degrees for the "center" speaker, as with the Ascend Sierra 1 center:

For example, Line Source speakers when designed properly offer outrageous sound. I've had the pleasure of hearing Danny Richie's line source designs at RMAF, "lobing" is not an issue.

The line source example wasn't about being loud, it was about a great listening experience. I don't listen above 90db, and 95% of listening is done at no greater than 80db to be honest.

Funny thing about this discussion is that I enjoy 2-way monitors far more than multiple driver floorstanders.

I'm pretty sure WmAx talked about the pros/cons of line array, in the vertical sense, but I can't find it. In any case, this is a different thing than the specific issue of horizontal array of redundant drivers.

reason being, we have a shelf space for the center speaker, and this would fly aesthetically better than 3 across the top, but would it defeat the "3 matching speakers" concept?
i'll try and upload a picture of my setup so you can see what im saying.
also, if we do have to put the center speaker up top and keep it vertical, it's probably a good 16-18 inches ABOVE the listeners head when it's on top the entertainment center... will this be an issue?? should i try and angle it downward?
also, measured our room: 16' wide by 12' deep.. so it's not large by any means.

How far do you sit from the entertainment center? Something that might not only help with the angle a bit, but also reduce unwanted resonances from the AV cabinet itself, could be a few Auralex Mopads.

touche, however i don't think the picture does the setup justice...
the speakers are pretty much flush with the end of the recessed wall, if thats what you're referring to...
but you're right, its probably not ideal, but don't really have another choice...

I think what you want, and what is being recommended, is the front wall

I have a crazy idea for you. How about a false wall? All you will need to do is frame up some wood, cover with GOM (Guillford of Maine, choose your favorite color). You can keep or lose the AV cabinet. The only real downside is that you have to find a new place for those photos and candles. As for components, if you leave them up front, you'll have to figure a way for easy access, and if you do, an $80 URC remote/blaster RF system will control it. Or... you can run an HDMI through the wall, and place your components anywhere else, in a discrete vertical rack cabinet. A 35 foot HDMI cable from Monoprice is probably $40 or so.


EDIT: btw, colbymartin, I also graduated from an HTIB just a tad over two years ago. Yes, my brain exploded several times since then.