EQ Settings on Denon 4400 and narrowing down subs

William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Overlord
Thanks, man. I guess it's probably not good to build a screaming stereo when you have a little one coming, huh? :)
Why not? You CAN turn it down lol!

Besides, they get used to noise. If you’re tip toeing around all the time they won’t sleep through anything.
 
S

Steelers252006

Audioholic
I'm thinking the 15H Mk2s.
I think in my case here, I can't understand why a 15 inch subwoofer that kicks ass would be priced so much cheaper than some of the other ones. The Monolith is considered a "bargain" price compared to many of them, but it's even another 500 bucks over the HSU. If the Monolith and the HSU were neck and neck a person would be crazy then to spend another 500 bucks on the Monolith, right? Same with the SVS Ultra or the SVS 4000s. If I just had a place to demo and hear them, all of this would be a moot point, but I don't. I tinkered with the dual SVS PB-2000s, too, but I think from what I'm hearing on here in previous posts that I need to give it a little more punch than that.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
I think in my case here, I can't understand why a 15 inch subwoofer that kicks ass would be priced so much cheaper than some of the other ones. The Monolith is considered a "bargain" price compared to many of them, but it's even another 500 bucks over the HSU. If the Monolith and the HSU were neck and neck a person would be crazy then to spend another 500 bucks on the Monolith, right? Same with the SVS Ultra or the SVS 4000s. If I just had a place to demo and hear them, all of this would be a moot point, but I don't. I tinkered with the dual SVS PB-2000s, too, but I think from what I'm hearing on here in previous posts that I need to give it a little more punch than that.
Hsu I think is the value leader in subs at this point. The 15H is a very good sub. I don't know that I would call the Monolith a bargain either. They're all very good subs, tho :)
 
L

Leemix

Audioholic General
Audyssey Flat (or sometimes labeled music) is just that....aims at a flat frequency response. Audyssey (or reference or movie) is same except for a little roll off of the highest frequencies. The bass boost (and a bit of higher frequency boost) comes with DynamicEQ at less than reference volume (and can be adjusted via Reference Level Offset for music recordings, stock setting of 0 is for movies).
I apologize, especially to the OP, i dont know where my head was, a bit of a scatterbrain there apparently when replying and mixing dynamic eq into the reference part.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
First of all, you might not want to use Audyssey, period. I wouldn't use Audyssey. It's a bandaid for bad speakers, and you don't have bad speakers. Your speakers do not need auto-equalization since I am pretty certain they are tonally balanced to begin with. If you want to change their sound, use a graphic equalizer or parametric equalizer or tone control. Audyssey can't do much to help a good system, but it can hurt a good system. The only good it can do is taper down room related peaks in bass, and that is only if you take the measurements correctly, and even then its not worth running if you can't contain it to low frequencies only.

Regarding the subs that you are considering, in terms of performance, what you are paying more for is deep bass capability, mainly stuff between 16 Hz and 25 Hz. Above 40 Hz, what you get is almost an inverse of the sub 30 Hz capability. Let's look at the 16 Hz burst output from some of these subs. I am only going to list measurements from their lower tuning point, since that will put their best foot forward in a 16 Hz test:

  • Outlaw X13, 1 port: 102.3
  • SVS PB-4000, 2 ports: 107.1
  • Monolith 15" THX, 2 ports: 105.2
  • Hsu VTF-3 mk5, 1 port: 99
  • SVS PB16-Ultra, 2 ports: 109.1
  • Hsu VTF15h MK2, 1 port: 102.3
For some perspective, consider that in the dB scale here, a 6 dB increase is a doubling of output, a 3dB increase is about a 50% increase, and a 9 dB advantage is about a tripling of output.
Now let's look at their 25 Hz performance, this time in the higher tuning modes:
  • Outlaw X13, 2 port: 111.1
  • SVS PB-4000, 3 ports: 113.3
  • Monolith 15" THX, 3 ports: 113.1
  • Hsu VTF-3 mk5, 1 port: 110.4
  • SVS PB16-Ultra, 3 ports: 116.9
  • Hsu VTF15h MK2, 2 port: 111.8
Now let's look at how they do in mid bass, we will go with 63 Hz since that maybe the most representative for this range. We will look at the lower tuning modes:

  • Outlaw X13, 1 port: 114.1
  • SVS PB-4000, 2 ports: 115.4
  • Monolith 15" THX, 2 ports: 115.8
  • Hsu VTF-3 mk5, 1 port: 116.8
  • SVS PB16-Ultra, 2 ports: 117.1
  • Hsu VTF15h MK2, 1 port: 116.9
You can see, they are all pretty close at 63 Hz.

The point here is that, between these subs, you are basically paying for more powerful deep bass, from a performance perspective. But there is more performance than just easily comparable burst numbers, and there is more to subs than just performance. There is also stuff like nicer finishes, longer standard warranties, features like SVS's app control, shipping practices, and the logistics of dealing with large sizes and weight (don't dismiss this so readily- you will regret it otherwise).

Something else to consider is that two subs will give you a more balanced response and less chances of localizing the sub, so basically two subs can grant you better sound quality- if you take the time to set them up properly.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Imo Audyssey is effective in flattening the range from 15 to 200 Hz.
 
S

Steelers252006

Audioholic
Hsu I think is the value leader in subs at this point. The 15H is a very good sub. I don't know that I would call the Monolith a bargain either. They're all very good subs, tho :)
So why would one spend 500 more for the Monolith if they could have essentially the same quality sound for so much less? I’ve thought mimgband hard about the HSUs because if their excellent price. I mean, is the Monolith 15 500 bucks better than the HSU 15?
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
So why would one spend 500 more for the Monolith if they could have essentially the same quality sound for so much less? I’ve thought mimgband hard about the HSUs because if their excellent price. I mean, is the Monolith 15 500 bucks better than the HSU 15?
mimgbband? :)

I don't think so myself but I haven't played with either of them. shadyj might have.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Can anyone explain what EQ settings are exactly and how they should be set?
Most powered subs have some form of Bass EQ Boost.

Back in the days when I owned Denon's, I would love the heck out of Dynamic EQ, which (as already mentioned) boosts the heck out of the Bass 20-80Hz.

Now that I use Yamaha (which doesn't have a Dynamic EQ feature), I have to Manually do my own Subwoofer Bass EQ boost 20-80Hz by +2dB. :d

So if you like that bass, turn on that Dynamic EQ.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
As far as Audyssey vs onboard eq goes, I've not been able to out-do Audyssey with my avrs' built in graphic eq. YMMV. It's good at helping you setup your subs (and with the model you have, particularly two) and you can always turn it off or use the app to limit it to the sub region. DynamicEQ can't be used without it and that can be nice at lower volumes.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Most powered subs have some form of Bass EQ Boost.

Back in the days when I owned Denon's, I would love the heck out of Dynamic EQ, which (as already mentioned) boosts the heck out of the Bass 20-80Hz.

Now that I use Yamaha (which doesn't have a Dynamic EQ feature), I have to Manually do my own Subwoofer Bass EQ boost 20-80Hz by +2dB. :d

So if you like that bass, turn on that Dynamic EQ.
I don't think most subs have user adjustable eq, some do (and many do have built in non user-adjustable eq, particularly sealed subs).
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I don't think most subs have user adjustable eq, some do (and many do have built in non user-adjustable eq, particularly sealed subs).
Well, that's okay. I think either use DEQ or the AVR's Parametric EQ to boost the 20-80Hz for the Sub a few dBs and he'll be set. ;)

One thing I will say (just like I said all those million times about DEQ) - Parametric EQ Bass Boost can be pretty awesome for music.

I had to decrease the subwoofer trim levels when I did the EQ Bass boost. Also used Q = 0.5, instead of 1.0 But man, the bass sound is great.

Oh, yeah, I don't mess with the treble EQ. Just the bass EQ.
 
Last edited:
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
As far as Audyssey vs onboard eq goes, I've not been able to out-do Audyssey with my avrs' built in graphic eq. YMMV. It's good at helping you setup your subs (and with the model you have, particularly two) and you can always turn it off or use the app to limit it to the sub region. DynamicEQ can't be used without it and that can be nice at lower volumes.
I spent enough time doing it manually too, and know Audyssey is worth the extra dollars. The $20 app allows non believer to EQ the low range (below the Schroeder freq.).

I respect Shady's knowledge, but I think req does work for many hts.
 
S

Steelers252006

Audioholic
First of all, you might not want to use Audyssey, period. I wouldn't use Audyssey. It's a bandaid for bad speakers, and you don't have bad speakers. Your speakers do not need auto-equalization since I am pretty certain they are tonally balanced to begin with. If you want to change their sound, use a graphic equalizer or parametric equalizer or tone control. Audyssey can't do much to help a good system, but it can hurt a good system. The only good it can do is taper down room related peaks in bass, and that is only if you take the measurements correctly, and even then its not worth running if you can't contain it to low frequencies only.

Regarding the subs that you are considering, in terms of performance, what you are paying more for is deep bass capability, mainly stuff between 16 Hz and 25 Hz. Above 40 Hz, what you get is almost an inverse of the sub 30 Hz capability. Let's look at the 16 Hz burst output from some of these subs. I am only going to list measurements from their lower tuning point, since that will put their best foot forward in a 16 Hz test:

  • Outlaw X13, 1 port: 102.3
  • SVS PB-4000, 2 ports: 107.1
  • Monolith 15" THX, 2 ports: 105.2
  • Hsu VTF-3 mk5, 1 port: 99
  • SVS PB16-Ultra, 2 ports: 109.1
  • Hsu VTF15h MK2, 1 port: 102.3
For some perspective, consider that in the dB scale here, a 6 dB increase is a doubling of output, a 3dB increase is about a 50% increase, and a 9 dB advantage is about a tripling of output.
Now let's look at their 25 Hz performance, this time in the higher tuning modes:
  • Outlaw X13, 2 port: 111.1
  • SVS PB-4000, 3 ports: 113.3
  • Monolith 15" THX, 3 ports: 113.1
  • Hsu VTF-3 mk5, 1 port: 110.4
  • SVS PB16-Ultra, 3 ports: 116.9
  • Hsu VTF15h MK2, 2 port: 111.8
Now let's look at how they do in mid bass, we will go with 63 Hz since that maybe the most representative for this range. We will look at the lower tuning modes:

  • Outlaw X13, 1 port: 114.1
  • SVS PB-4000, 2 ports: 115.4
  • Monolith 15" THX, 2 ports: 115.8
  • Hsu VTF-3 mk5, 1 port: 116.8
  • SVS PB16-Ultra, 2 ports: 117.1
  • Hsu VTF15h MK2, 1 port: 116.9
You can see, they are all pretty close at 63 Hz.

The point here is that, between these subs, you are basically paying for more powerful deep bass, from a performance perspective. But there is more performance than just easily comparable burst numbers, and there is more to subs than just performance. There is also stuff like nicer finishes, longer standard warranties, features like SVS's app control, shipping practices, and the logistics of dealing with large sizes and weight (don't dismiss this so readily- you will regret it otherwise).

Something else to consider is that two subs will give you a more balanced response and less chances of localizing the sub, so basically two subs can grant you better sound quality- if you take the time to set them up properly.
Can you explain what you mean by “higher tuning” and “lower tuning”? Also, why does such a small decibel increase elicit such a steep increase in power output?
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
Can you explain what you mean by “higher tuning” and “lower tuning”? Also, why does such a small decibel increase elicit such a steep increase in power output?
I’ll offer this beginning level explanation, as that’s where I am in my process of learning about speaker design. As always, corrections are welcome!
Tuning is the description of setting the lower frequency extension of the box or port. A lower tuning point equals lower frequency. In a closed box, the size/volume of the box determines the final frequency that can be produced. Larger is usually lower. With ported or vented boxes, size of box still counts but you add to it the port diameter and length which in turn lower the frequency that can be produced. Where a very long port is needed, but the box size will not allow required length, you see multiple ports added.
There are of course more complexities in the design process than just size of box/port that can affect tuning, but that is the basic version.
 
S

Steelers252006

Audioholic
I’ll offer this beginning level explanation, as that’s where I am in my process of learning about speaker design. As always, corrections are welcome!
Tuning is the description of setting the lower frequency extension of the box or port. A lower tuning point equals lower frequency. In a closed box, the size/volume of the box determines the final frequency that can be produced. Larger is usually lower. With ported or vented boxes, size of box still counts but you add to it the port diameter and length which in turn lower the frequency that can be produced. Where a very long port is needed, but the box size will not allow required length, you see multiple ports added.
There are of course more complexities in the design process than just size of box/port that can affect tuning, but that is the basic version.
So leave the ports open, lower extension, lower tuning. Close the ports up, higher tuning. My reading that right?
 
S

Steelers252006

Audioholic
So leave the ports open, lower extension, lower tuning. Close the ports up, higher tuning. My reading that right?
And a sealed sub only has one variation of tuning to it versus ported and its different variable combinations?
 
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