EP-500, PB-12 Plus, and UFW-12, a couple specific questions about pros and cons

[Sheep]

Sheep, Which of these subwoofers have you heard ?

Craig, you didn't answer my question.

SheepStar

 

[Sheep]

Because to my ears in my HT and to the ears of participants in a recent listening test, the EP500 sounds better than the SVS sub. Graphs are secondary to listening but when I say superbly flat I mean this DSP controlled linearity compared to the humped declining response in that SVS chart.

If I were the OP I would take advantage of the shipping policies of those three companies, order all three and listen to them for a couple of weeks and then return the pair you don't want. That way you will know what works best in your personal space.

Yeah, and that measurement is in an anechoic chamber. The SVS is ground plain.

SheepStar

 

[craigsub]

Sheep, You posted a graph, as if that can tell you about the sound quality of the subwoofers in question. Yet, you have, to the best of my knowledge, not auditioned the subwoofers about which you are posting. Have you listened to each subwoofer under the conditions of a properly done blind test, and posted the results ?

By the way, it is Ground Plane ... Not Ground Plain.

Yeah, and that measurement is in an anechoic chamber. The SVS is ground plain.

SheepStar

 

[Sheep]

Sheep, You posted a graph, as if that can tell you about the sound quality of the subwoofers in question. Yet, you have, to the best of my knowledge, not auditioned the subwoofers about which you are posting. Have you listened to each subwoofer under the conditions of a properly done blind test, and posted the results ?

By the way, it is Ground Plane ... Not Ground Plain.

Yet again, dodging the real question. Would you like me to spoon feed them to you? Here comes the Airplane!

My Statement (which if you read it, says NOTHING concrete) "It seems the SVS PB-12Plus has a flat FR to 100Hz too."

My questions, in regard to my statement.

"Why would you recommend the EP500 over the SVS then? Is there something about the SVS reaching 14 rather then 20Hz flat that makes it worse? Not to mention the SVS is cheaper and has real wood veneer options."

Don't choke now.

SheepStar

 

[craigsub]

Yet again, dodging the real question. Would you like me to spoon feed them to you? Here comes the Airplane!

My Statement (which if you read it, says NOTHING concrete) "It seems the SVS PB-12Plus has a flat FR to 100Hz too."

My questions, in regard to my statement.

"Why would you recommend the EP500 over the SVS then? Is there something about the SVS reaching 14 rather then 20Hz flat that makes it worse? Not to mention the SVS is cheaper and has real wood veneer options."

Don't choke now.

SheepStar

When you grow up, and can actually ask a question without either of the following:

1. Leading ... When you say "Is ther something about the SVS reaching 14 Hz rather than 20 that makes it worse, not to mention the SVS is cheaper and has real wood veneer options" you are not asking a simple question. You are making a speech with a rhetorical question attached.

2. Condescension ... "Don't Choke" ... "Here comes the airplane?" ..

I will then gladly answer the question.

As for your involvement in this thread, it is OK that you are an SVS fan. However, do you REALLY think you are in a position to assist the OP in finding the best subwoofer for his needs ?

Until you have experienced a product first hand, giving advice to people about the product, positive or negative, is just plain wrong.

In this case, the OP wants some insight regarding the PB12-Plus, the EP-500, and the UFW-12. Which of these have you had in your system for any length of time ?

 

[Manic Miner]

Here we go again.

The Plus in the 12.2 iteration is flat enough, good luck trying to tell the difference between +/- 1.5db for the Plus, and +/- 1db for the EP500. And that is if you're listening outside, bring the sub inside where it belongs and the interaction with the room will make that 1db advantage more moot then ever.

The difference in SPL below 25hz between the EP500 and the Plus is something that you will be able to tell, no doubt about it.

The EP500 has a brickwall filter at 100hz, the LFE track contains information up to 120hz..... And i'm no expert at this but will not at brickwall filter add GD?

Then you have build quality. The plus is buildt of 1" MDF, the EP500 3/4", and still the EP500 has less bracing.

I guess it is possible that the EP500 may sound better to some, but the explanation for this can not be found in the specifications or in the measurements. If you look at the two subs from an objective viewpoint the only thing the EP500 does better then the Plus is being smaller.

 

[craigsub]

Here we go again.

The Plus in the 12.2 iteration is flat enough, good luck trying to tell the difference between +/- 1.5db for the Plus, and +/- 1db for the EP500. And that is if you're listening outside, bring the sub inside where it belongs and the interaction with the room will make that 1db advantage more moot then ever.

The difference in SPL below 25hz between the EP500 and the Plus is something that you will be able to tell, no doubt about it.

The EP500 has a brickwall filter at 100hz, the LFE track contains information up to 120hz..... And i'm no expert at this but will not at brickwall filter add GD?

Then you have build quality. The plus is buildt of 1" MDF, the EP500 3/4", and still the EP500 has less bracing.

I guess it is possible that the EP500 may sound better to some, but the explanation for this can not be found in the specifications or in the measurements. If you look at the two subs from an objective viewpoint the only thing the EP500 does better then the Plus is being smaller.

Yes, Here we go again. Guys who have never heard the EP-500 just cannot understand why it performs so well. So they talk about thickness of MDF, bracing, anything but sound quality.

 

[Sheep]

When you grow up, and can actually ask a question without either of the following:

1. Leading ... When you say "Is ther something about the SVS reaching 14 Hz rather than 20 that makes it worse, not to mention the SVS is cheaper and has real wood veneer options" you are not asking a simple question. You are making a speech with a rhetorical question attached.

2. Condescention ... "Don't Choke" ... "Here comes the airplane?" ..

I will then gladly answer the question.

As for your involvement in this thread, it is OK that you are an SVS fan. However, do you REALLY think you are in a position to assist the OP in finding the best subwoofer for his needs ?

Until you have experienced a product first hand, giving advice to people about the product, positive or negative, is just plain wrong.

In this case, the OP wants some insight regarding the PB12-Plus, the EP-500, and the UFW-12. Which of these have you had in your system for any length of time ?

Never claimed to be an expert craig. I base my opinion off measurements. While hearing it is obviously the best way to get an opinion, a graph will tell you that much more about the speaker. Numbers don't lie.

SheepStar

 

[cyberbri]

But numbers aren't the whole story.

Excuse the example, but...
Measurements of two women will tell you how their bodies compare, but it won't tell you how "fat" they look or how pretty their faces are (more subjective, personal opinions).


Or, for a more PC example...
Speed/braking measurements and specs for two cars won't tell you what it feels like to drive either car or how they look or "ride." And these are often subjective, personal preferences.

 

[jakeman]

Measurements are very important and we all know how much we can debate those "objective" assessments as well. The buying process starts with accumulating as much information as possible and I would encourage reading the reviews, soliciting subjective impressions, finding out about listening reports and if you have the ability or resources do your own testing. Graphs will tell you much about how the sub will behave and should be considered. Critical listening in isolation or in an A/B comparison will reveal more about how the sub sounds. Because so much of the sound is determined by room acoustics though there is no substitute for listening and comparing in your own space or getting the views of others who have done the listening comparisons.

Let's keep the discussion in perspective. At the end of the day all three companies make great products and offer excellent service so we are talking about real fine points that distinguish them from each other.

 

[Johnd]

Measure the subwoofer and there is no doubt how deep it goes. A microphone doesn't have human bias or agendas...it just measures the performance of the subwoofer/speaker.

Tom V.
SVS

While this is true, data can be manipulated (and often is) to fit one's need. That is, if the comparison does not "prove" A is better than B in an anechoic chamber, let us perform the comparison outside. If the outside comparison does not further our cause, let us do it in a listening room. Etc., etc., etc.

Speakers, above all other things in a ht, are hugely subjective. If this is what you mean by bias, I agree.

A "properly conducted blind test" of the two subs has no bias...other than an individuals bias for one sound over another. While I'll suggest graphs are more useful in sub comparisons than with other speakers, only a fool would buy one brand over another based strictly on data, and without a personal audition.

 

[Sheep]

But numbers aren't the whole story.

Or, for a more PC example...
Speed/braking measurements and specs for two cars won't tell you what it feels like to drive either car or how they look or "ride." And these are often subjective, personal preferences.

That is a bad example. There is more to "ride" the just brakes and speed. Suspension, weighting, aerodynamics. All measurable things.

SheepStar

 

[craigsub]

Never claimed to be an expert craig. I base my opinion off measurements. While hearing it is obviously the best way to get an opinion, a graph will tell you that much more about the speaker. Numbers don't lie.

SheepStar

Ok... "numbers don't lie" ...

Which of these two speakers sounds better ?

 

[Sheep]

Ok... "numbers don't lie" ...

Which of these two speakers sounds better ?

Personally, I would like the first one.

SheepStar

 

[cyberbri]

That is a bad example. There is more to "ride" the just brakes and speed. Suspension, weighting, aerodynamics. All measurable things.

SheepStar

Would you rather compare data on all that (assuming it's available), or just take it for a test drive?

 

[Sheep]

Would you rather compare data on all that (assuming it's available), or just take it for a test drive?

That would depend on the car Also, not everyone can "Take" a test drive...

SheepStar

 

[craigsub]

That would depend on the car Also, not everyone can "Take" a test drive...

SheepStar

Good point ... One does have to be old enough to drive, and also have insurance.

 

[patnshan]

But numbers aren't the whole story.

Excuse the example, but...
Measurements of two women will tell you how their bodies compare, but it won't tell you how "fat" they look (more subjective, personal opinions).

You give me the height, weight, waist, hip, bust measurements of said woman and I will tell you exactly how fat they look Sorry, couldn't resist.

Pat

 

[naisphoo]

While this is true, data can be manipulated (and often is) to fit one's need. That is, if the comparison does not "prove" A is better than B in an anechoic chamber, let us perform the comparison outside. If the outside comparison does not further our cause, let us do it in a listening room. Etc., etc., etc.

Speakers, above all other things in a ht, are hugely subjective. If this is what you mean by bias, I agree.

A "properly conducted blind test" of the two subs has no bias...other than an individuals bias for one sound over another. While I'll suggest graphs are more useful in sub comparisons than with other speakers, only a fool would buy one brand over another based strictly on data, and without a personal audition.

Ageed...and I happend to be in the half that knows nothing about sub. True I'm not lying. Now to answer the OP's question. One camp says look at them subs' graph, the other one says listen to them subs. I say do both and we shall be free...

 

[Johnd]

...I say do both...

I could not state it better.