EP-500, PB-12 Plus, and UFW-12, a couple specific questions about pros and cons

[Sheep]

Good point ... One does have to be old enough to drive, and also have insurance.

Now, if that test drive involved a chevy, screw it!

SheepStar

 

[jakeman]

While this is true, data can be manipulated (and often is) to fit one's need. That is, if the comparison does not "prove" A is better than B in an anechoic chamber, let us perform the comparison outside. If the outside comparison does not further our cause, let us do it in a listening room. Etc., etc., etc..

Its a fact of life that numbers can be manipulated and selectively used to influence. That's why the recent introduction of new subwoofer measurement standards by the CEA is such a great development for consumers and manufacturers. It represents a two year project by a team of concerned industry representatives to standardize measurements and will be another useful reference point when comparing subs. For those more technically inclined or just curious there's more information on the new CEA standard measurement in the thread referred to by Ajax above. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7566192&&#post7566192

It would be interesting to know what the CEA metric is for these three subs. At a minimum its more useful data for the purchase decision. Still it does not change the greater importance of trying to listen to the subs in one's room before choosing and if you can't carefully consider the views of those who have listened and compared.

 

[craigsub]

Interesting point of view, Mr. Vodhanel. I am curious, though. How exactly does a blind listening test which is followed by measurements fall under your definition of a "biased" test ?

Based on previous conversations with you and others, this concept seems to be too complicated for some people to understand. Here is how this works ....

1. A moderator places the two subwoofers in a nearfield position, in order to reduce room effect to a minimum.

2. The moderator level matches the two subwoofers

3. Next, the panel (anywhere from one to 8 people, typically) listens to the two subwoofers using a wide variety of material. At no time do you know which subwoofer is which. You have to make notes, and pick which, to your ears, sounds the best.

4. You post all your listening results where everyone can see them.

5. You then reveal which subwoofer was which.

6. Then you take the measurements of both subwoofers.

Is it your position that skipping to #6 is superior ?

naisphoo and JohnD .. I had posted this earlier. For some reason, the "let's only measure" guys like to ridicule listening tests as "biased tests" done by "golden ears" ...

I have asked Mr. Vodhanel, Mr. Stimpson, and their personal favorite reviewers... on dozens of occasions to explain why this type test, as laid out above, is inferior to just taking measurements.

They will never answer the question.

It makes one wonder - what is it about blind listening tests that terrifies them so much, especially when measurements will be taken afterward ?

IMO, a proper listening test followed by measurements is, withut any doubt, the best of all worlds.

 

[Johnd]

Its a fact of life that numbers can be manipulated and selectively used to influence. That's why the recent introduction of new subwoofer measurement standards by the CEA is such a great development for consumers and manufacturers. It represents a two year project by a team of concerned industry representatives to standardize measurements and will be another useful reference point when comparing subs. For those more technically inclined or just curious there's more information on the new CEA standard measurement in the thread referred to by Ajax above. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7566192&&#post7566192

It would be interesting to know what the CEA metric is for these three subs. At a minimum its more useful data for the purchase decision. Still it does not change the greater importance of trying to listen to the subs in one's room before choosing and if you can't carefully consider the views of those who have listened and compared.

I was unaware...apples to apples. It's about time, and that's good news for the consumer...not so good for some manufacturers. Hopefully all subs will subscribe/be tested uniformly.

 

[Johnd]

I have asked Mr. Vodhanel, Mr. Stimpson, and their personal favorite reviewers... on dozens of occasions to explain why this type test, as laid out above, is inferior to just taking measurements.

I've seen some of your requests. Perhaps it is time to pm, email, or even certified mail them (w/ return receipt requested) in order to receive a response to this rather simple question. However, it would seem the days are numbered for manipulated sub data if jakeman's CEA test is used for all subs. I wonder why this wasn't done before...

 

[craigsub]

I've seen some of your requests. Perhaps it is time to pm, email, or even certified mail them (w/ return receipt requested) in order to receive a response to this rather simple question. However, it would seem the days are numbered for manipulated sub data if jakeman's CEA test is used for all subs. I wonder why this wasn't done before...

The CEA test looks to be a real winner. While some guys were belittling it - the idea of taking a max output with the three different frequencies simultaneously mirrors what happens in the real world far more than does a single tone sine wave.

Jakeman is a very interesting guy - rarely have I met someone who researches things as diligently as he does. He has a thirst for learning the truth, and really does not care whether someone likes or dis-likes what he finds.

Oh ... and I have tried the PM and e-mail approach, but never thought of the certified mail idea ...

 

[Johnd]

Oh ... and I have tried the PM and e-mail approach, but never thought of the certified mail idea ...

Particularly since Mr. Vodhanel represents SVS, and has posted in this very thread. I would be very interested in his answer to this benign question. In addition, what models, if any, compare favorably to some of his subs.

I have never heard SVS personally, but I have heard many good things about some of their models, as well as their pricing and ca department.

 

[craigsub]

JohnD - Jakeman and I both currently own SVS subwoofers, and like them. We have just both found there are others which sound better. That does not make the SVS a bad product, though. Their customer service is first rate, and the product quality is excellent.

 

[Johnd]

Of course...there's always something better. As you still own an SVS, as does jakeman, you are apparently fans, and presumably for good reason (you both seem to be sub "nuts"/afficionados).

So that leaves the CEA test (or any good standardized test for subs). Hopefully, forums such as this will provoke manufacturers to post test results (CEA or other) of their subs to eliminate some of the mystique and variances of all the different testing procedures. Enjoy what you have while you have it, 'cuz there's always something better. Happy listening to all.

 

[RMK!]

The way I see it measurements are important and provide good basic info, but their importance and validity increase dramatically if there are standards in place for those measurements. I applaud the efforts of the CEA in this regard.

Unfortunately, manufacturers will never be able to objectively double blind tests their products. There will always be a question of methodology and the validity of the results. Same is true for the noble efforts of Craigsub (but please, keep up the good work ). For me, this subjective listening is the real determining factor for a product. If not by my own ears, then at least a well executed DB test is information I want to have. I would think that an organization like Canada’s NRC would be a perfect candidate to do both.

How about this idea, the manufacturers pay a fee to have their devices tested under the CEA protocol by the NRC. The NRC could also conduct DB testing on the same products. The Manufacturers tested products then receive an NRC certification. Sort of a Consumer Reports for Audio but funded by the manufacturers fees. It would seem to me that such a certification would a marketing credential for the manufacturers and if the certification was endorsed by sites like Audioholics and AVS, it would have even more credibility and influence on buying decisions.

 

[Johnd]

Good idea, RMK! I'm all for a single, uniform, disinterested, third party test of subs. This would seem to be more and more useful considering the leaps and bounds subs have made over the past few years, and will, presumably, continue to do. As long as it does not turn into Consumer Reports' somewhat limited recent review of loudspeakers.

 

[RMK!]

Good idea, RMK! I'm all for a single, uniform, disinterested, third party test of subs. This would seem to be more and more useful considering the leaps and bounds subs have made over the past few years, and will, presumably, continue to do. As long as it does not turn into Consumer Reports' somewhat limited recent review of loudspeakers.

LOL... That review resulted in my canceling my CR subscription. I don't think we would have to worry about the NRC's competence to perform these tests.

 

[malvado78]

Since the original poster is looking for opinion's on subwoofers and not opinions on the best way to form an opinion on a subwoofer I will try to oblige.

I just last week recieved a 20-39 PC-Plus. My wife suprised me with it after I came home from being out of the country for a week.

I spent some time on Saturday setting it up. So far I am very happy with it. I have watch a few excerpts of some of my favorite movies. And a couple of other full movies. Previously I owned a 10" subwoofer that comes in the Onkyo 770 HTIB (which I maintain that for the price of the whole system it is a very good value but just not in the same league).

I setup the sub with Avia. I have not yet graphed my inroom response.

I made the decision by reading other impressions on the Plus series and looking at FR graphs. Movies are my priority but like to listen to music also. In looking for my new sub I was definitely preoccupied with find the lowest trolling sub for the best price. I believe I found that with the PC+. I had not heard an SVS before recieving mine. I would have loved to had the luxury of considering the EP500 but the fact is: it is out of my price range.

I let my wife decide what she liked better: the cylinder or the box because I didn't care if they perform very similiar. She liked the cylinder and she bought it for me.

So far I would very much recommend the SVS PC+. I believe it is the best overall value.

 

[RMK!]

Since the original poster is looking for opinion's on subwoofers and not opinions on the best way to form an opinion on a subwoofer I will try to oblige.

I just last week recieved a 20-39 PC-Plus. My wife suprised me with it after I came home from being out of the country for a week.

I spent some time on Saturday setting it up. So far I am very happy with it. I have watch a few excerpts of some of my favorite movies. And a couple of other full movies. Previously I owned a 10" subwoofer that comes in the Onkyo 770 HTIB (which I maintain that for the price of the whole system it is a very good value but just not in the same league).

I setup the sub with Avia. I have not yet graphed my inroom response.

I made the decision by reading other impressions on the Plus series and looking at FR graphs. Movies are my priority but like to listen to music also. In looking for my new sub I was definitely preoccupied with find the lowest trolling sub for the best price. I believe I found that with the PC+. I had not heard an SVS before recieving mine. I would have loved to had the luxury of considering the EP500 but the fact is: it is out of my price range.

I let my wife decide what she liked better: the cylinder or the box because I didn't care if they perform very similiar. She liked the cylinder and she bought it for me.

So far I would very much recommend the SVS PC+. I believe it is the best overall value.

Sorry to continue the derailment of this thread but you purchased an $800 subwoofer to compliment your $400 HTIB system?

 

[Johnd]

Since the original poster is looking for opinion's on subwoofers and not opinions on the best way to form an opinion on a subwoofer I will try to oblige.

Actually, I believe he asked not only for other's opinions on specific subs, but he also asked:
1) importance of equalization;
2) importance of lfe; and
3) he mentioned lab comparisons.
So, I believe we have all remained on point. I hate hijacked threads! Nevertheless, I shall acquiesce to your SVS PC+ review. Cheers.

 

[malvado78]

Sorry to continue the derailment of this thread but you purchased an $800 subwoofer to compliment your $400 HTIB system?

No I have also upgraded my speakers to the BIC Acoustech Mains and center. I will be purchasing the rear surrounds later this year and hopefully a parametric equalizer for Christmas. The only thing I will have left of the HTIB is the reciever (Onkyo 520 which is essentially a 502 but with a few extra options) a low end reciever but has more than enough power for the very sensitive Acoustechs.

 

[Johnd]

A chiclet, or a long ago banished, but since reinstated (new and improved) red dye #5 m&m?

 

[Mark Seaton]

How about this idea, the manufacturers pay a fee to have their devices tested under the CEA protocol by the NRC. The NRC could also conduct DB testing on the same products. The Manufacturers tested products then receive an NRC certification. Sort of a Consumer Reports for Audio but funded by the manufacturers fees. It would seem to me that such a certification would a marketing credential for the manufacturers and if the certification was endorsed by sites like Audioholics and AVS, it would have even more credibility and influence on buying decisions.

Something similar to this has been gaining momentum in the pro-audio community where full 3D balloon measurements for full range loudspeakers is required for the modeling that is commonly done in system design. So far two companies have started providing and authoring such data, and the nice thing is that the manufacturer doesn't have the ability to alter the data files.

Check out the link about the Common Loudspeaker Format.

Then check out ETC, Inc. (a sister company of Synergetic Audio Concepts)

More recently another person I know from the pro audio community set up his company and measurement system which can take the measurements much more quickly. NWAA Labs

I have brought up the topic of working with home audio manufacturers to provide related measurement verification, and there was interest. This sort of thing seems like a reasonable means to do such testing. It's not all that difficult to cross-calibrate a couple of facilities.

 

[Stone__Man]

first 3 pages are/were pretty good actually. but , man why does every SUB thread always have to turn into a pissing contest? Come on people, just try to help those that look for information and provide what u can to help them better understand. Bickering does not accomplish that.

I also asked *being in kinda the same boat as the OP* as far as trying to determine what to purchase, and hoping for input for others,how the HSU VTF-3 MKII is in compare to others mentioned by the OP, and so far have heard not one word about it good, bad or otherwise, rather pages of (this matters, that don't, my way is better than your way) blah blah blah <_<

what I find the MOST amazing about all these sub arguments is that I have not seen this happen with MAIN speaker threads at all, why is that? After all wouldn't most people choose better mains and a so so sub over a better sub and so so mains? what the H3LL is the major deal that subs just can't be talked about in a mature and respectfull way?

personally I think "some" just like to start sh!t cause they are behind the safety of their keyboard, and they know they can get under certain other peoples skin,those are the ones that need the dog snot smacked out of 'em.

 

[Johnd]

It's not all that difficult to cross-calibrate a couple of facilities.

Hear, Hear!