EP-500, PB-12 Plus, and UFW-12, a couple specific questions about pros and cons

[Ilkka]

The CEA test looks to be a real winner. While some guys were belittling it - the idea of taking a max output with the three different frequencies simultaneously mirrors what happens in the real world far more than does a single tone sine wave.

The CEA test also uses single sine waves. Six tones are measured (THD limited) and devided into two ranges: Ultra Low-Bass: 20, 25, 31.5Hz and Low-bass: 40, 50, 63Hz. The final score for both ranges is an average of those three values.

I can't say this impresses me. Tom Nousaine, Ed Mullen and I have been doing same kind of tests for quite some time. We just used a little bit tighter THD limit (10%).

 

[craigsub]

The CEA test also uses single sine waves. Six tones are measured (THD limited) and devided into two ranges: Ultra Low-Bass: 20, 25, 31.5Hz and Low-bass: 40, 50, 63Hz. The final score for both ranges is an average of those three values.

I can't say this impresses me. Tom Nousaine, Ed Mullen and I have been doing same kind of tests for quite some time. We just used a little bit tighter THD limit (10%).

Ilkka ... Your attitude never ceases to amaze. I am sure the CEA is trembling that you are not impressed with their new standard. Is this beligerance actually a part of Finnish culture ? Or are you special ?

Not to worry, though. We know of one subwoofer company who approves of your testing.

 

[C-6]

Interesting point of view, Mr. Vodhanel. I am curious, though. How exactly does a blind listening test which is followed by measurements fall under your definition of a "biased" test ? ?

Craig,

There is a form of bias known as "predilection bias" and that is probably what Mr V. is referring to. For example, a listener have a personal bias for preferring a sub which has an elevated 40-80 Hz region. This will have a tendentious effect, coloring his listening experience. He may well rate a "more faithful" sub inferior to the "bloated" speaker with the elevated 40-80Hz region. All listeners are not pars inter pares.

 

[Johnd]

All listeners are not pars inter pares.

Without stepping on any toes...

I believe it a rudimentary known amongst the most noviate of audioholics that pars inter pars; that sound is subjective. But it is nearly impossible to remain objective when comparing speakers without a standardized test.

 

[craigsub]

Craig,

There is a form of bias known as "predilection bias" and that is probably what Mr V. is referring to. For example, a listener have a personal bias for preferring a sub which has an elevated 40-80 Hz region. This will have a tendentious effect, coloring his listening experience. He may well rate a "more faithful" sub inferior to the "bloated" speaker with the elevated 40-80Hz region. All listeners are not pars inter pares.

C-6 ... This is another great example of someone taking part of what someone says, and either expanding on it, with no knowledge from which to base the expansion, or picking a portion of it while ignoring the rest, with intent to mis-inform. Congrats, you managed to do both. Hopefully you did so by accident.

For an example expansion with no backing, I have seen Mr. V.'s posts for years, at no time has he stated that his concern is "predilection bias". In simpler terms, this means you made it up. You have precisely zero evidence of Mr. V's position - but you made the excuse for him anyway.

You also quite happily ignored the fact that I have called for measurements AFTER the blind listening tests are complete.

It will be interesting to see if you can follow along here: Let us say we have the tone deaf panel that you and Mr. Vodhanel are afraid of. After these individuals post all their opinions, objective data will be then taken to back up what these people were hearing.

So ... In the event that this panel of listeners goes through the entire test, and they all pick a subwoofer with a large "bump" in the 40 to 80 Hz range, they would be pretty embarassed.

Now a question for you - did you bother to read through the blind test we did here last November ? I am going to guess NO.

In this test, one of the subwoofers was given a 5 dB bump centered at 25 Hz, and the same sub was also played "flat". Out of the 6 listeners, 5 preferred the "flat" subwoofer. One marginally picked the "bumped" subwoofer.

I have been involved in well over 200 blind tests, and have yet to see a panel which tended towards your "predilection" bias.

Please feel free to ask any questions regarding this...

 

[jakeman]

The CEA test also uses single sine waves. Six tones are measured (THD limited) and devided into two ranges: Ultra Low-Bass: 20, 25, 31.5Hz and Low-bass: 40, 50, 63Hz. The final score for both ranges is an average of those three values.

I can't say this impresses me. Tom Nousaine, Ed Mullen and I have been doing same kind of tests for quite some time. We just used a little bit tighter THD limit (10%).

No you and your friend have not been doing the same kind of comparative measurement.

Here we had the Audio Systems Committee of the Consumer Electronics Association decide that a standard was necessary to stop misleading measurement of subwoofers. The Association, which represents 2000 manufacturers of audio/visual products, $70 billion in revenues and employs tens of thousands of people, was sufficiently concerned with misleading measurement methods that it struck a committee two years ago to determine a standard fair method of measuring and comparing subwoofers. The committee developed the standard after much discussion and refinement in 23 drafts. The committee consists of a dozen of the leading audio engineers and scientists. And you aren't impressed?

I can't say I' m surprised.

 

[C-6]

C-6 ... This is another great example of someone taking part of what someone says, and either expanding on it, with no knowledge from which to base the expansion, or picking a portion of it while ignoring the rest, with intent to mis-inform. Congrats, you managed to do both. Hopefully you did so by accident.

For an example expansion with no backing, I have seen Mr. V.'s posts for years, at no time has he stated that his concern is "predilection bias". In simpler terms, this means you made it up. You have precisely zero evidence of Mr. V's position - but you made the excuse for him anyway.

You also quite happily ignored the fact that I have called for measurements AFTER the blind listening tests are complete.

It will be interesting to see if you can follow along here: Let us say we have the tone deaf panel that you and Mr. Vodhanel are afraid of. After these individuals post all their opinions, objective data will be then taken to back up what these people were hearing.

So ... In the event that this panel of listeners goes through the entire test, and they all pick a subwoofer with a large "bump" in the 40 to 80 Hz range, they would be pretty embarassed.

Now a question for you - did you bother to read through the blind test we did here last November ? I am going to guess NO.

In this test, one of the subwoofers was given a 5 dB bump centered at 25 Hz, and the same sub was also played "flat". Out of the 6 listeners, 5 preferred the "flat" subwoofer. One marginally picked the "bumped" subwoofer.

I have been involved in well over 200 blind tests, and have yet to see a panel which tended towards your "predilection" bias.

Please feel free to ask any questions regarding this...

Holy Smoke! It's not MY predilection bias. Isn't this an undeserved overreaction to a fairly innocuous statement? Chill out! Nothing is worth getting this emotionally worked up. And I'm no apologist for SVS (I own all Hsu).

I agree that listening tests should be blind. I'm just saying that there are other sources of bias and it's between our ears.

 

[C-6]

Without stepping on any toes...

I believe it a rudimentary known amongst the most noviate of audioholics that pars inter pars;.

John,

With all due respect it's pars inter pares (ablative case).

Cheers,

C-6

 

[craigsub]

Holy Smoke! It's not MY predilection bias. Isn't this an undeserved overreaction to a fairly innocuous statement? Chill out! Nothing is worth getting this emotionally worked up. And I'm no apologist for SVS (I own all Hsu).

I agree that listening tests should be blind. I'm just saying that there are other sources of bias and it's between our ears.

C-6 ... If you are going to try to converse here, please stick with facts, rather than whatever "logic" you think you are pouring out.

Can you find where I said it was your predilection ?

What did I say that was emotional ?

What facts did you have about Mr. V's position that would lead you to the conclusion that he was concerned with a "predilection bias" ? Can you find a post of his elsewhere which explains this ?

Finally, Can you come up with something I posted which was not based in fact, or in the alternative, a direct response to what you posted ?

Take your time. So far, your first two posts here have been classics.

 

[C-6]

C-6 ...
Finally, Can you come up with something I posted which was not based in fact, or in the alternative, a direct response to what you posted ?

Whew, this is a tough one. O.K., O.K., you misspelled "condescension" earlier. after you corrected another member for misspelling "plane".

 

[craigsub]

Whew, this is a tough one. O.K., O.K., you misspelled "condescension" earlier. after you corrected another member for misspelling "plane".

Thanks for the correction. Perhaps you will want to remove the "." after "earlier".

 

[Tom Andry]

Now this is just getting silly. I feel like I'm back on the playground in first grade. Someone be the bigger man and move on.

 

[craigsub]

Tom, We were joking. You know, humor.

See the big green smiley at the end of my last post ?

Did you notice C-6's rather humorous pointing out a mis-spelling ?

You mods need to lighten up.

 

[Sheep]

Tom, We were joking. You know, humor.

See the big green smiley at the end of my last post ?

Did you notice C-6's rather humorous pointing out a mis-spelling ?

You mods need to lighten up.

Bull you were joking. Look at your last couple posts.

SheepStar

 

[craigsub]

Bull you were joking. Look at your last couple posts.

SheepStar

Hey - You are pretty good. Not only can you tell a speaker's performance from a single graph, you can also read minds.

Keep it up, and we will get you a guest appearance on Letterman ...

 

[Duffman-OOHYEAH]

Hey - You are pretty good. Not only can you tell a speaker's performance from a single graph, you can also read minds.

Keep it up, and we will get you a guest appearance on Letterman ...

Better make it the Tonight show.

(sheep holds an envelope up to his head)

Ed: So what do you see?

Sheep: It's a squiggly line that runs flat from 200hz to 10hz.

Ed: So it's an seismograph reading??

Sheep: Hardly Ed, it's the graph to the GREATEST SOUNDING SUBWOOFER IN THE WORLD!!

Ed then kicks the crap out of sheep in the same manner Bob Barker beat up Adam Sandler.

Horrible joke, sorry but I just to post it.


JR

 

[craigsub]

Better make it the Tonight show.

(sheep holds an envelope up to his head)

Ed: So what do you see?

Sheep: It's a squiggly line that runs flat from 200hz to 10hz.

Ed: So it's an seismograph reading??

Sheep: Hardly Ed, it's the graph to the GREATEST SOUNDING SUBWOOFER IN THE WORLD!!

Ed then kicks the crap out of sheep in the same manner Bob Barker beat up Adam Sandler.

Horrible joke, sorry but I just to post it.


JR

I thought of Letterman, so Sheep could make the "stupid pet tricks" segment ... but yours works, too ...

 

[Sheep]

Hey - You are pretty good. Not only can you tell a speaker's performance from a single graph, you can also read minds.

Keep it up, and we will get you a guest appearance on Letterman ...

You made the same mistake twice. Dodging the real question. Although last time you survived. I guess you can really swallow.

C-6 ... This is another great example of someone taking part of what someone says, and either expanding on it, with no knowledge from which to base the expansion, or picking a portion of it while ignoring the rest, with intent to mis-inform. Congrats, you managed to do both. Hopefully you did so by accident.

For an example expansion with no backing, I have seen Mr. V.'s posts for years, at no time has he stated that his concern is "predilection bias". In simpler terms, this means you made it up. You have precisely zero evidence of Mr. V's position - but you made the excuse for him anyway.

You also quite happily ignored the fact that I have called for measurements AFTER the blind listening tests are complete.

It will be interesting to see if you can follow along here: Let us say we have the tone deaf panel that you and Mr. Vodhanel are afraid of. After these individuals post all their opinions, objective data will be then taken to back up what these people were hearing.

So ... In the event that this panel of listeners goes through the entire test, and they all pick a subwoofer with a large "bump" in the 40 to 80 Hz range, they would be pretty embarassed.

Now a question for you - did you bother to read through the blind test we did here last November ? I am going to guess NO.

In this test, one of the subwoofers was given a 5 dB bump centered at 25 Hz, and the same sub was also played "flat". Out of the 6 listeners, 5 preferred the "flat" subwoofer. One marginally picked the "bumped" subwoofer.

I have been involved in well over 200 blind tests, and have yet to see a panel which tended towards your "predilection" bias.

Please feel free to ask any questions regarding this...

Yeah, real funny. Then you follow up with this.

C-6 ... If you are going to try to converse here, please stick with facts, rather than whatever "logic" you think you are pouring out.

Can you find where I said it was your predilection ?

What did I say that was emotional ?

What facts did you have about Mr. V's position that would lead you to the conclusion that he was concerned with a "predilection bias" ? Can you find a post of his elsewhere which explains this ?

Finally, Can you come up with something I posted which was not based in fact, or in the alternative, a direct response to what you posted ?

Take your time. So far, your first two posts here have been classics.

I hear you own a car dealership, correct? Chevy? Hm. If I were you, I would stop buying subwoofers, 'cause when GM topples your going to need every penny you can get.

SheepStar

 

[craigsub]

You made the same mistake twice. Dodging the real question. Although last time you survived. I guess you can really swallow.



Yeah, real funny. Then you follow up with this.



I hear you own a car dealership, correct? Chevy? Hm. If I were you, I would stop buying subwoofers, 'cause when GM topples your going to need every penny you can get.

SheepStar

Sheep - You really need to lighten up, young man.

If you don't see the dry humor in "tone deaf panel", then it is not I who fails to understand what humor is ...

And while I appreciate your concern for my business future, I don't own a Chevrolet Dealership. And my partnership in some (non GM) dealerships is a very small portion of my business concerns.

Now, and let's follow closely. WHAT makes you think I need to answer your inane questions ? You keep popping off about products you never heard. If you want to do that, that is cool. However, that does not qualify you as an authority. By the way, this is more dry humor. If anything here confuses you, please let me know, ok ? I don't want you thinking I am angry ...

 

[Sheep]

Sheep - You really need to lighten up, young man.

If you don't see the dry humor in "tone deaf panel", then it is not I who fails to understand what humor is ...

And while I appreciate your concern for my business future, I don't own a Chevrolet Dealership. And my partnership in the dealerships is a very small portion of my business concerns.

Now, and let's follow closely. WHAT makes you think I need to answer your inane questions ? You keep popping off about products you never heard. If you want to do that, that is cool. However, that does not qualify you as an authority. By the way, this is more dry humor. If anything here confuses you, please let me know, ok ? I don't want you thinking I am angry ...

Where did I "pop" off? All I did was ask a couple questions, and STILL I have not been given a thorough asnwer.

If I'm asked something, and I know the answer, I'd answer. Pretty simple.

My questions were(are),

1.) Why does the EP500 beat the PB-12Plus, if they look similar with a graph?

Its not a hard question, and you can spout off about how I haven't heard them all you want. BUT, if you want people to believe you, and respect you, answering this question is a good start. You've heard them, and you seem very convinced that the EP500 is better, so prove it. Thats all I ask

2.) Is there somthing about the SVS reaching 14 rather then 20Hz flat that makes it worse?

Both subwoofers are flat up to 100Hz, and its been pointed out that its a moot point when you considers room modes. Again, because you have heard them both, and did it blind, you should be able to describe why the EP500 is better.

SheepStar